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Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 3:25:25 PM   
losttreasure


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Status: offline 		I'm bored with all the "jessica" posts. 

If one partner, upon not getting their way, behaves in a manner specifically designed to make the other partner unhappy with the intent of eliciting cooperation... is that manipulation?

If the one partner is upfront by saying that if they do not get their way, they will purposely behave in a manner that makes the other partner unhappy... is that still manipulation?

If one partner tells the other partner that they are unhappy about not getting their way, is that manipulation?

Does gender or orientation (dominant or submissive) change things?

Edited for clarity.


< Message edited by losttreasure -- 7/9/2007 3:26:02 PM >

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 3:34:42 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

If one partner, upon not getting their way, behaves in a manner specifically designed to make the other partner unhappy with the intent of eliciting cooperation... is that manipulation?


I would say it is.

quote:

If the one partner is upfront by saying that if they do not get their way, they will purposely behave in a manner that makes the other partner unhappy... is that still manipulation?


Depends.  If the person who is 'informing' warns, but makes no effort to avoid such behaviour, learn from it and change a pattern, then it is a type of manipulation.  If a person warns that they know that they may behave a certain way and asks for patience, assistance and/or help and shows that they are trying to overcome a pattern, then I would say no.  I am viewing it from either a learned behaviour or disorder though, rather than, 'I am going to do it this way so tough'.

quote:

If one partner tells the other partner that they are unhappy about not getting their way, is that manipulation?


Not necessarily - voicing ones unhappiness is good comunication.  Voicing ones unhappiness with the idea that it might change a situation would be manipulation. 

quote:

Does gender or orientation change things?


Not sure what you mean by this, so I can't answer.

the.dark.

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 3:35:01 PM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

If one partner, upon not getting their way, behaves in a manner specifically designed to make the other partner unhappy with the intent of eliciting cooperation... is that manipulation?


Theoretically, anything that may influence someone to a desired conclusion or action is manipulation.  But practically speaking, I would define manipulation as surreptitious influence.

quote:

 
If the one partner is upfront by saying that if they do not get their way, they will purposely behave in a manner that makes the other partner unhappy... is that still manipulation?


I would define that as a threat.

quote:

 
If one partner tells the other partner that they are unhappy about not getting their way, is that manipulation?


I would define that as either the genuine sharing of an emotional feeling, or whining and complaining, depending upon the manner in which it's conveyed.

quote:

 
Does gender or orientation (dominant or submissive) change things?


Nope, not a bit.
 
John

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 3:44:38 PM   
losttreasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

Does gender or orientation change things?


Not sure what you mean by this, so I can't answer.


Thank you for your responses, dark.  I edited my original post to clarify some; I was thinking along the lines of whether it might change the idea that the person was manipulating based on if they were dominant or submissive.  Sort of like your "I am going to do it this way so tough" example. 


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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 3:47:12 PM   
losttreasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I would define that as a threat.
 

But isn't a threat manipulation?  Isn't it made with the intent to influence a desired conclusion or action?

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 3:48:57 PM   
HardnRuff


Posts: 213
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Status: offline 		Is manipulating Me or even trying to, not Trying to top Me from the bottom ? I cant see where gender plays any part in it at all ...If they are not happy with an event or situation they we need to sit down and discuss this problem.

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 3:49:56 PM   
Areflectionofyou


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Status: offline 		it looks like bold face manipulation to me

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 3:52:37 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

Does gender or orientation change things?


Not sure what you mean by this, so I can't answer.


Thank you for your responses, dark.  I edited my original post to clarify some; I was thinking along the lines of whether it might change the idea that the person was manipulating based on if they were dominant or submissive.  Sort of like your "I am going to do it this way so tough" example. 



You are welcome and thanks for clarifying.
I personally do not believe that it matters whether a person is dominant or submissive - manipulation is manipulation... it's causing someone to do something you want without asking directly.
But I do believe that there is good/positive manipulation and bad/negative manipulation.

Peace
the.dark.

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 3:54:22 PM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I would define that as a threat.
 

But isn't a threat manipulation?  Isn't it made with the intent to influence a desired conclusion or action?


That is what I would call a theoretical definition of manipulation.  But as I said earlier, I believe a practical definition is as a surreptitious influence.  Whereas a threat is plainly evident.  Besides, I make a clear distinction between manipulation (which I consider weak) and a threat (which I consider a challenge to authority/power), and respond accordingly (which is to say, quite differently between the two).
 
John

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 5:23:39 PM   
salilus


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Status: offline 		In my opinion, the first two examples are manipulation while the last just seems to be healthy communication. 

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 5:31:01 PM   
HardnRuff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Areflectionofyou

it looks like bold face manipulation to me
You know what they say .. if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck .. ....

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 5:31:19 PM   
viperess


Posts: 290
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Status: offline 		Greetings,
To me yes it is manipulation, at least the first two are and the second...well that would depend on the manner in which it was done.

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 5:51:02 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Any action or behavior that's specifically designed to alter another persons opinion, actions, decisions, which is done without that persons awareness is manipulation. 

Acting in a way to make someone unhappy to get cooperation is manipulation. Why not just communicate with that person how you feel about there not being the level of cooperation you need?

Telling someone if they don't get their way they will purposely do something to make the other unhappy is more then manipulation, it's cohersion or being a bully.

Telling someone outright you are unhappy about not getting your way is honest. Maybe in a D/s context the way it is offered can be confrontational but that depends on the dynamic betwen the two people in the relationship.

Last question you posed is an interesting one. Doms use manipulation all the time.  Do xyz or Master will be will displeased (and Master will be pleased) etc... Punishment is done to manipulate behavior to change. 

Generally i see manipulation as a negative term.[Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage.]   It has connotations of dishonesty and underhandedness, not being upfront and forthright in how you approach people and your needs and wants.  But i do understand people see it in it's gentler definition : [skillful or artful management. ]

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 5:56:09 PM   
ShiftedJewel


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Status: offline 		What great timing!!! This gives me food for thought.
 
Hmmm.... manipulation? Is it still manipulation if the individual isn't doing it with the intent of getting their way, they're just doing it? Ok, that didn't even make sense to me. But thank you for the really great question!!
 
Jewel

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 6:00:15 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

I'm bored with all the "jessica" posts. 

If one partner, upon not getting their way, behaves in a manner specifically designed to make the other partner unhappy with the intent of eliciting cooperation... is that manipulation?


yes.. and it's also deceitful

quote:



If the one partner is upfront by saying that if they do not get their way, they will purposely behave in a manner that makes the other partner unhappy... is that still manipulation?


Yes.. and it's also a threat.

quote:


If one partner tells the other partner that they are unhappy about not getting their way, is that manipulation?


No... It's sharing one's feeling.

quote:


Does gender or orientation (dominant or submissive) change things?


No


editted to add:

There seems to be a thought that manipulation has this negative feel to it.  Personally... I don't automatically view it as negative.. more context to the give situation must be considered before I would view it as either negative or positive.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 7/9/2007 6:05:49 PM >

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 6:14:45 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


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Status: offline 		I think we all manipulate for desired results in all parts of our lives..ex: I am going to do this and this extra thing at work to elicit a new opening coming up with in the comany...I the submissive will , will bring the crop in my teeth to Master to hopefully elicit its use upon my body....I the Master will tape the submissives mouth shut in order to have her/him think again before she/he speaks disrespectfully...I the Mom, will give my UM an ice cream as reward for cleaning room, thus manipulating future positive endeavors etc:...maybe it just comes down to what form the manipulation takes...but all in all positive or negative manipulation..is simply human interaction of one kind or another...Tempting

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 6:16:36 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


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Status: offline 		Sorry It seems Knight and I had same thought pattern about positive and negative manipulation..did not mean to repeat....Tempting

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 6:20:48 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

Sorry It seems Knight and I had same thought pattern about positive and negative manipulation..did not mean to repeat....Tempting


don't apologize... you are just showing that our idea is a force to be reckoned with!!!!

editted to add

and if anyone wants to argue with us.. well you give to them with both barrels. I will be right behind you in support!!!

*** runs out the back door** 

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 7/9/2007 6:22:51 PM >

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 6:22:31 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


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Status: offline 		..I take that as a high compliment..thank you..Tempting

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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 7:10:44 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
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Status: offline 		This is why I add "uncoerced" to my definition of consent necessary.  It needs to be FREE consent.

Now, I'm not against manipulation, flirting, teasing, cajoling, pushing or any of that in blanket terms- it really depends on the intent and the informed level of the people involved.

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