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RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 7:12:06 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

I'm bored with all the "jessica" posts.

If one partner, upon not getting their way, behaves in a manner specifically designed to make the other partner unhappy with the intent of eliciting cooperation... is that manipulation?

If the one partner is upfront by saying that if they do not get their way, they will purposely behave in a manner that makes the other partner unhappy... is that still manipulation?

If one partner tells the other partner that they are unhappy about not getting their way, is that manipulation?

Does gender or orientation (dominant or submissive) change things?

Edited for clarity.

Thank you LT, I don't read or respond to them.
But it is amazing how many enjoy debating with him/her or it.

Now to answer your question.
{Great question by the way!}

I think if it is done by a submissive and especially a slave, it is indeed manipulation.
Plain and simple.

If it is done by the Dominant, it would depend on the circumstances involved.
Manipulation is a tool, that can be used by a Dominant party to help produce a desired response
or growth in a submissive.
**To me a lot of this boils down to being in a consensual relationship, you have given a great deal
of power to your Dominant, and yes he can use this power in a manner he/she feels fit to use it.**

IF, a submissive does not like being manipulated by his/her Dominant she is always free to voice her opinions,
he may or may not change, and then she has the option of leaving the relationship!

< Message edited by MzMia -- 7/9/2007 7:21:17 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 21

RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 7:12:23 PM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

I'm bored with all the "jessica" posts.

If one partner, upon not getting their way, behaves in a manner specifically designed to make the other partner unhappy with the intent of eliciting cooperation... is that manipulation?

Yes, through covert and passive/aggressive means.

quote:

If the one partner is upfront by saying that if they do not get their way, they will purposely behave in a manner that makes the other partner unhappy... is that still manipulation?

Yes, through passive/aggressive means.

quote:

If one partner tells the other partner that they are unhappy about not getting their way, is that manipulation?

No, this is sharing feelings and emotions.

quote:

Does gender or orientation (dominant or submissive) change things?

No, why should it?

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 22

RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 7:15:00 PM

adoracat

Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline

i will admit to manipulation at times. however. Sir KNOWS this. he also knows that when i do it....its so absolutely over the top and overblown that it cant be anything more than my own silliness.

have i come right out and said "i'm unhappy, this is why, can we fix it?" yes, i have. and it works wonders.

kitten who is hot and tired and grumpy

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 23

RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 7:46:42 PM

TemptingNviceSub

Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

Sorry It seems Knight and I had same thought pattern about positive and negative manipulation..did not mean to repeat....Tempting

don't apologize... you are just showing that our idea is a force to be reckoned with!!!!

editted to add

and if anyone wants to argue with us.. well you give to them with both barrels. I will be right behind you in support!!!

*** runs out the back door**

Heyyy!! get back here ,you wuss!!!..men!!..I apologize for KOM's behavior..I am sure he just needed to pee!!

...Tempting

_____________________________

I have greatly enjoyed the second blooming...suddenly you find at the age of 50, that a whole new life has opened before you.........Agatha Christie.

You must make tracks into the unknown~~Thoreau

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 24

RE: Manipulation... - 7/9/2007 8:29:01 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

If one partner, upon not getting their way, behaves in a manner specifically designed to make the other partner unhappy with the intent of eliciting cooperation... is that manipulation?

Yes, I see it as manipulative, and, depending on the intention, could be seen as dishonest, too. In my dynamic, he would not tolerate this kind of behavior from me. However, he might engage in this practice himself, for the purpose of teaching me, or opening my eyes to something. Sometimes I have to be squeezed out of a comfort zone to grow.

quote:

If the one partner is upfront by saying that if they do not get their way, they will purposely behave in a manner that makes the other partner unhappy... is that still manipulation?

Yes, but with the same qualifiers as above.

quote:

If one partner tells the other partner that they are unhappy about not getting their way, is that manipulation?

No, it's simply expressing his/her feelings.

quote:

Does gender or orientation (dominant or submissive) change things?

In my case I'd have to say gender wouldn't matter, but orientation does, depending on his motive.

As others have said, there is good manipulation and bad. Depends on the purpose and intent.

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 25

RE: Manipulation... - 7/10/2007 1:36:43 AM

DarkDreams123

Posts: 74
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline

Hi losttreasure,

Very interesting post.

In my opinion, manipulation is something deceptive and therefore is something destructive in a relationship. Deception by definition requires that the action be hidden. So the answer to your second question is that it is not manipulation because it is no longer hidden.

However, you appear to be implying that trying to influence someone's behavior is somehow inherently wrong. There is nothing wrong with trying to influence someone's behavior, so long as you are open and honest about it. Also, it can very much matter who the person is and what motivates them.

For example, a parent may warn a child that if they don't change their behavior they will be punished. This is not deceptive, nor is this wrong in any way. Hopefully, the parent has the child's best interests at heart.

Your second example is more difficult if it is applied to adults in a D/s relationship. [For brevity's sake, I will refer to a male Dominant and a female submissive, even though this would equally apply to Masters and slaves and female Dominas/Mistresses and male submissives/slaves.]

I think it would very much matter if a submissive were to tell her Dominant that she was going to "misbehave" if she didn't get her own way. How can you have a power exchange unless there is a real transfer of authority? It seems to me that by definition, a submissive must yield to the will of her Dominant. I know that we don't live in a perfect world. I know that no submissive is going to be submissive in everything, all the time. However, to premeditatedly tell someone that if they don't give you your own way you are going to "act up" doesn't seem very submissive to me.

If a Dominant were to tell this to his submissive, it would strike me as rather strange. If the Dominant is really in charge, he should only have to command his submissive to obey. Why would he have to behave in this way?

In your last example, just to tell someone that you are unhappy with something in the relationship is not manipulation. However, it could depend on how this was communicated and how often it was communicated as to whether it would be positive or negative. If you were to "whine" about not getting your own way or if you were to keep bringing it up repeatedly, then it wouldn't be just a matter of communicating something to your Dominant that he needs to know. It would be a way of trying to pressure him into giving you what you want.

Motive is the key.

-DarkDreams

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

I'm bored with all the "jessica" posts.

If one partner, upon not getting their way, behaves in a manner specifically designed to make the other partner unhappy with the intent of eliciting cooperation... is that manipulation?

If the one partner is upfront by saying that if they do not get their way, they will purposely behave in a manner that makes the other partner unhappy... is that still manipulation?

If one partner tells the other partner that they are unhappy about not getting their way, is that manipulation?

Does gender or orientation (dominant or submissive) change things?

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 26

RE: Manipulation... - 7/11/2007 12:40:59 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

I'm bored with all the "jessica" posts.

DarkDreams called this an interesting post and I agree, though there are parts of his answer I disagree with.

quote:

If one partner, upon not getting their way, behaves in a manner specifically designed to make the other partner unhappy with the intent of eliciting cooperation... is that manipulation?

Yes, it is manipulation. Depending on how it is used, and within the context of the situation, it is either good or bad manipulation. For example...dominant is displeased with submissive's behavior. He disciplines/punishes submissive for behavior. This makes the submissive unhappy but also...hopefully...forces her to rethink her actions/position and change her behavior to enhance the dynamic and please the dominant and "grow" her submission. Was the dominant's manipulation positive as in: "to control (others or oneself) or influence skillfully, usually to one's advantage"? or was it negative? I consider the above to be a positive example of manipulation. Now...the submissive does something to displease the dominant. Rather than speak to her about it, or punish/discipline her in a proper manner, he decides to pout in some manner...removing himself from her company, being truculent, whatever...in an attempt to make her change her behavior. Of course, since he has not been clear about what behavior she is supposed to change, then all she can do is scramble back over the last few minutes, hours, days to see if she can figure it out for herself and then try to "make up" for it. This is an example...in MOO...of negative manipulation.

quote:

If the one partner is upfront by saying that if they do not get their way, they will purposely behave in a manner that makes the other partner unhappy... is that still manipulation?

I see this as an overt threat...as to whether it is good or bad depends on the context. If a submissive has been fighting giving her submission suddenly and communication determines that "there is nothing wrong" yet it continues, the dominant may tell their submissive that if she chooses not to act submissive, then she will not be receiving any form of dominance, whether D/s related or BDSM related. I remember reading something along these lines in Devon and Miller's book...not the best way to handle things, in MOO, but in very limited situations I could see it being effective. Coming from the submissive, it could be seen as being a way of trying to "top" from the bottom.{/quote]

quote:

If one partner tells the other partner that they are unhappy about not getting their way, is that manipulation?

I see it as a direct expression of what they are truly feeling. It is depending on what happens after the expression of the statement as to whether or not it was manipulative in a good way or a bad way.

quote:

Does gender or orientation (dominant or submissive) change things?

I think orientation (either dominant or submissive) can change things...see examples given...but gender does not necessarily play a role. I do not see women as necessarily being more or less manipulative...either positively or negatively...than men. It depends on each individual.

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 7/11/2007 12:41:51 PM >

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 27

RE: Manipulation... - 7/11/2007 3:12:03 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

Sorry It seems Knight and I had same thought pattern about positive and negative manipulation..did not mean to repeat....Tempting

I agree with what Knight posted as well.

One of the issues I have both in and out of relationships goes back to the fact that I state my feelings and opinions and the like rather clearly (or so I have been told), but there seems to be a need on the part of people I share my feelings with to try to take ownership of them, get angry with me for how I feel, or whatever.

I dont want them to take ownership of them. They are welcome to get angry with me about it, but I refuse to get emotionally involved in their feelings (i.e. try to take their feelings away), and I actually get rather possessive about them.

I feel what I feel until I am done feeling it.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)

Post #: 28

RE: Manipulation... - 7/11/2007 6:40:16 PM

Tristan

Posts: 330
Joined: 5/31/2004
Status: offline

Does it matter if its manipulation, coercion, or a combination of both? Regardless of what you call it, it generally doesn't lead to close intimate relationships.

Tristan

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 29

RE: Manipulation... - 7/11/2007 7:47:55 PM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

I think we all manipulate for desired results in all parts of our lives ... but all in all positive or negative manipulation..is simply human interaction of one kind or another...

An excellent point and well said.

I do think that identifying manipulation hinges more on perception rather than intent... so few of us can read other's minds, it is often difficult to know what is someone else's intent or motivation. I can't imagine that I'm alone in having been accused of trying to manipulate when it was the furthest thing from my mind. It's often made me wonder why the other person was so anxious to have me take responsibility for their emotions.

Of course, that begs the question that if I am successfully manipulated, is it my fault for allowing my own emotions to influence my reactions, or does the blame belong to the manipulator?

If you think of manipulation as using behavior to elicit a desired response, within the D/s relationship there does seem to be more open and acknowledged consent. In general terms, a submissive consents to allowing a dominant to manipulate her behavior to achieve the results he desires, but I think that the dominant is also consenting to being manipulated, as well. Does he not know and agree that the submissive is going to consciously tailor her behavior in order to elicit his pleasure... which is presumably the response she desires?

What is negative isn't the behavioral attempt, but how the one it's being used on views the desired results.

I don't necessarily believe broadcasting intent is necessary to keep it from being considered manipulation, either. FirmhandKY doesn't get a news bulletin from me when I'm planning to do something extra special for him. I believe he knows when I'm stepping outside of the norm in order to elicit favor from him, and though I might be wrong, I don't think he automatically feels that I am negatively manipulating him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

...Depending on how it is used, and within the context of the situation, it is either good or bad manipulation.

I think you've hit the nail right on the head.

*sighs* Edited for spelling.

< Message edited by losttreasure -- 7/11/2007 7:50:13 PM >

_____________________________

Just because it isn't "all about me", doesn't make it "all about you".

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)

Post #: 30

RE: Manipulation... - 7/11/2007 8:19:29 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

All of this boils down as always to motive. If my motive is right, the act is right, if the motive is wrong, the act is wrong.

If I make sure that I imprint the stroking of hair with her being a good girl after doing some vile act for me, she is going to associate positive emotions at some point to the once vile act. That is manipulation in its most basic form.

What we are all refering to as manipulation howeveer, is the attempting to get, through subtle means, something we are not supposed to get, as in the case of a submissive, their wants met instead of their dominants, or in the case of a dominant, somehow violate the bounds of the relationship

I think that when we speak of manipulation

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 31

RE: Manipulation... - 7/11/2007 8:59:37 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

Sorry It seems Knight and I had same thought pattern about positive and negative manipulation..did not mean to repeat....Tempting

I agree with what Knight posted as well.

Hey Tempting... ** pointing to Sinergy** we another one in our camp... And He Kicks Ass.... He know Martial Arts and all that fancy kick ass stuff! We'll put him on point!!!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 32

RE: Manipulation... - 7/12/2007 2:40:26 AM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

It’s interesting that we have taken an aspect we had not thought of before in a positive way and realized we all do it and it is not necessarily a bad thing. LostTreasure deserves all the credit for the thread, especially for asking how is it different if a Dom manipulates. It kind of comes down to a LuckyAlbatross-like philosophy that we all really do it whether we are Dom, sub or vanilla all the time.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 33

RE: Manipulation... - 7/12/2007 7:23:07 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Wow I have a type of philosophy named after me :D That's so cool.

What should it be? "The you ain't as special as you think you be" motto?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 34

RE: Manipulation... - 7/12/2007 7:36:59 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Wow I have a type of philosophy named after me :D That's so cool.

What should it be? "The you ain't as special as you think you be" motto?

Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....call it the "Twist me, Turn me...as long as its good for the relationship and for us, give me that old-time manipulation"

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 35

RE: Manipulation... - 7/12/2007 9:10:18 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

I see a difference between overt manipulation and subtle manipulations. SimplyMichael's hair stroking example would be an overt manipulation that is something easily recognizable by an astute person. It's something that can be accepted and acknowledged, there's a consensual component to it, and allowed to continue. Most manipulation really does fall into that kind of category. As long as I'm aware of the manipulation and can consent or not, then I don't really have a problem with it.

Where I have a problem with being manipulated is when it is very subtle and I don't recognize it. It's not something that happens over the course of a few days or weeks but something that is built up slowly over many weeks and/or months. Sometimes it even seems contradictory to the overt manipulation taking place, but it's constantly there, like a very slow but consistent drip. That kind of manipulation irks me because I can't always recognize it or agree to it. I *hate* when I realize I've been used that way. To me, this is abusive.

Just my thoughts......

_____________________________

"cooking is my kink"

Collared June 19, 2008
(uncollared 12/21/09 with his death. RIP my Santa)

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 36

RE: Manipulation... - 7/12/2007 10:46:17 AM

meticulousgirl

Posts: 969
Joined: 2/20/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

If one partner, upon not getting their way, behaves in a manner specifically designed to make the other partner unhappy with the intent of eliciting cooperation... is that manipulation?

It depends on whether or not the partner is just trying to communicate what is going on in his or her mind or whether the partner just want things all his or her way all the time.

quote:

If the one partner is upfront by saying that if they do not get their way, they will purposely behave in a manner that makes the other partner unhappy... is that still manipulation?

To me that's someone just asking for attention but yes it is manipulation.

quote:

If one partner tells the other partner that they are unhappy about not getting their way, is that manipulation?

No that's communication assuming it's in a respectful context.

quote:

Does gender or orientation (dominant or submissive) change things?

well in general submissives should be respectful in trying to communicate with Their Dominants, if a submissive does things and says things just to get the Dominants attention they are not trying very hard in my opinion to be pleasing.

If a Dominant however wants everything to be one ended both sides are more than likely not going to be happy. That's why respectful and open / honest communication is necessary for this lifestyle to work with both people involved.
I'm not really understanding why a Dominant would have to manipulate to achieve success in getting a submissive to do what she is suppose to, having to manipulate means that the Dominant doesn't have complete control over his or her sub and just means to me that one if not both people are not as serious as they maybe should be, Again communication is key.

~meticulous~

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 37

RE: Manipulation... - 7/12/2007 11:17:00 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

It’s interesting that we have taken an aspect we had not thought of before in a positive way and realized we all do it and it is not necessarily a bad thing. LostTreasure deserves all the credit for the thread, especially for asking how is it different if a Dom manipulates. It kind of comes down to a LuckyAlbatross-like philosophy that we all really do it whether we are Dom, sub or vanilla all the time.

Nods.. I echo that this has been a good thread.. It nice to see that people are looking at Manipulation in different light instead of the constant negative shit that is associated with the word...

but.. I am not going to be so bold to attribute all the credit to LostTreasure (even thou does deserves credit for getting people's mind moving..... mmmmm I think she manipulated us?!) There is alot of good comments in this thread... by several different people.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 38

RE: Manipulation... - 7/12/2007 11:30:18 AM

Lewcifer

Posts: 126
Joined: 5/22/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure
If one partner, upon not getting their way, behaves in a manner specifically designed to make the other partner unhappy with the intent of eliciting cooperation... is that manipulation?

If the one partner is upfront by saying that if they do not get their way, they will purposely behave in a manner that makes the other partner unhappy... is that still manipulation?

If one partner tells the other partner that they are unhappy about not getting their way, is that manipulation?

Any form of social influence can be considered manipulation. My reply to Y/you is manipulation.

Manipulation - "to manage or utilize skillfully"

Any opinions to the contrary are unsubstantiated and unsupported by fact or normative values.

_____________________________

I am fortunate... My wife is also My friend, lover and slave.

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 39

RE: Manipulation... - 7/12/2007 11:36:28 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

I see a difference between overt manipulation and subtle manipulations. SimplyMichael's hair stroking example would be an overt manipulation that is something easily recognizable by an astute person. It's something that can be accepted and acknowledged, there's a consensual component to it, and allowed to continue. Most manipulation really does fall into that kind of category. As long as I'm aware of the manipulation and can consent or not, then I don't really have a problem with it.

Where I have a problem with being manipulated is when it is very subtle and I don't recognize it. It's not something that happens over the course of a few days or weeks but something that is built up slowly over many weeks and/or months. Sometimes it even seems contradictory to the overt manipulation taking place, but it's constantly there, like a very slow but consistent drip. That kind of manipulation irks me because I can't always recognize it or agree to it. I *hate* when I realize I've been used that way. To me, this is abusive.

Just my thoughts......

Interesting perspective. However, given some of the points made by myself and others on here, could someone not make an intellectual argument that if everything the dominant does to change the behavior of his submissive is not realized as an action by the submissive that it is subtle manipulation? Could you not also make the argument that if a submissive has agreed to let the dominant guide and teach her, mold and change her behavior, that it is then his choice as to the methods he uses, as long as they are not methods that overstep her hard limits or are abusive? And, if the subtle manipulations prove beneficial to the submissive and therefore to the dominant and therefore to the dynamic (thereby meeting the definition of positive manipulation provided in examples in various posts), then how is that abusive? Unless it has been negotiated that the dominant will teach and guide the submissive, mold and change her behavior...but only in ways that are overt and therefore, meet with her approval.

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 40

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