RE: A Hypocrite Exposed

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luckydog1 -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/13/2007 5:09:29 PM)
thompson and owner, no where in the article does it give a date for him flying to England on the Concord. It implies he did it multiple times. So what exactly did you debunk by saying the Concord chrashed in mid 2000?

luckydog1 -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/13/2007 5:37:37 PM)
"The article points out that he hired mostly white men to the high spots in his film production staff the majority being producers....now correct me if I am wrong but aren't producers the money men and not hired staff? " No, the article points out that virtually every position down to Camera Man and Music Score was filled by a white, which goes against his public proclimations, and what he wrote in "stupid White Men" Now according to IMBD.com glossary of film terms.. Producer AKA: Prod The chief of staff of a movie production in all matters save the creative efforts of the director, who is head of the line. A producer is responsible for raising funding, hiring key personnel, and arranging for distributors. See also associate producer, co-producer, executive producer, line producer, Producer's Guild of America. Consider yourself wrong and corrected, and thanks owner59 for chiming in with false data. I agree Google is great for checking on stuff like this. So what exactly did you 2 debunk?

thompsonx -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/13/2007 8:41:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 thompson and owner, no where in the article does it give a date for him flying to England on the Concord. It implies he did it multiple times. So what exactly did you debunk by saying the Concord chrashed in mid 2000? Luckydog1: Perhaps you might want to read what I posted before you find fault with what you think I may have said. thompson

Kirata -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/13/2007 10:39:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 Many believe this is one reason Europe has basically stoped growing. I'm all for lower taxes. They're good for the economy. But I have to point out that the final Eurozone numbers, released Friday, report a seasonally adjusted year-over-year increase in GDP of 3.1% for the First Quarter of 2007. That's a little better than "basically stopped growing". K.

Owner59 -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/14/2007 7:12:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bipolarber Moore's tactic on CNN was simply taking a page out of the GOP's playbook: never answer a question, just go on the attack, and never let anyone get a word in edgewise. If called on any detail, immediately feign being offended and accuse the person asking the question of being either stupid, or seeking to to evil against God, country or his countrymen. Doesn't really feel good, does it? Nor does it really contribute to the debate. Now you know what us lefties have been putting up with for the last 16 fucking years. "Now you know what us lefties have been putting up with for the last 16 fucking years." ***************** True that... ,brother.

luckydog1 -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/14/2007 9:57:01 PM)
Thompson, I do not think you said " As I continued through the article I noticed that they mention that Mr. Moore flew to London on the Concord and stayed at the Ritz and rented a cheap room to hold his interviews in to maintain his image as a "man of the people" If memory serves me didn't the concord crash in mid 2000. The article points out that he hired mostly white men to the high spots in his film production staff the majority being producers....now correct me if I am wrong but aren't producers the money men and not hired staff?" You did say it. What does the Concord chrashing have to do with anything? And you were wrong about the role of a producer.... your falsehoods were good enough for Owner 59 though.

Owner59 -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/14/2007 11:33:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: He fucked up. He is down a notch in my book. Termyn8or, Never expected Mr. Moore to generate this much feedback. If you've taken the effort to go through this entire thread - my compliments and sympathy. I won't rehash, obviously you know it wasn't the message being criticized. Similar to President Clinton's 2nd term, my problem is in the wasted opportunity, while providing an unrelated distracting tangent. You just don't come off with integrity when you correctly challenge CNN and/or the news media in general for not asking tough questions, and then not answering them yourself. I though it was a simple observation that by now would be about 5 pages back in this thread section. But oh well... My parents contribute greatly to the $3000/car that US automakers have to pay to cover union negotiated insurance plans. The cost wasn't possible to project back in the '60s when it was won. Nobody responded to the question, but the reason why health care in the US became a private industry "benefit" in the first place was that during WWII when wages were frozen, it was a way for employers to attract more workers from the limited pool available. But back then Doctors were still making house calls for $2 and lawyers weren't waiting in the wings to sue if pulling a hang nail drew blood. The system needs to be changed. Most industries, outside the AMA, ABA, and the drug companies are for some form of Government provided health care. The Canadians shouldn't be lobbying for it, because the high cost in the US contributes to the Canadian governments ability to control the cost of prescriptions. It an age of multi-national corporations and phantom income statements, its a complicated issue. How can a person like me NOT appreciate Mr. Moore? I'm right at home with his sarcasm and baiting questions. Until I first learned of him, I thought those abilities were only found in NYC personalities. quote: Moore never struck me as leader material, but I bet he wants the chance really badly. His performance on that interview was awful. He made a few points but he tangentalized right away, fuck that. If I were he I would up and say "OK, tell you what, a few figures might have been off, but what points exactly are at issue here, right now ?". But then Moore is not quite right. Some of his responses were almost outbursts it seemed. Very counterproductive. The guy should've said "Hey, fuck you, we gave you airtime ". And he should've stayed on subject. Let his fans remember what happened three years ago and just file it. Moore made it almost antagonistic. We are not in disagreement. Moore is really a fluke.Just an average guy who made a cheap,almost homemade movie, about the decline Flint and the plight of US auto workers. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3622789144304528932&q=roger+and+me No big budget,(to speak of)and no guarantee that it wouln`t fall flat and fail.It was that his words rang true,that people took notice,and made the film a hit.No liberal conspiracy foisted "Roger and Me" on America.America embraced this sleeper,and it`s still current.The points Moore made,made sense and spoke truth to power.It also showed the human side of a dying city,w/ the evictions and the imploding economy.To most of us,it was only stories in the paper.Moore`s talent was to bring that story to life, with the residents telling the stories themselves.Moore made it hard for us to avoid thinking about what the global economy was doing to us. No one anointed him the "Messiah of truth".He has credibility because he cares to step up and ask the tough questions. Why does a Micheal Moore have to do this?Why wasn`t the mainstream press doing stories, like the ones told in "Rodger and Me"? No one was speaking for the little guy,the blue collar guy,the shrinking middle class.Why begrudge him for doing what "60 Minutes",should have been doing.I don`t remember much fuss in the press about Flint and Detroit at the time,and didn`t see "Rodger and Me till years after it was made. I think it`s because he`s so affective,that his opposition loathes him.He`s only posing arguments here,not trying to pull the wool over anyone`s eyes.True ,he gets in people`s faces and makes them sweat.So what?That`s why they get the big bucks. Peace

thompsonx -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/15/2007 3:28:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Thompson, I do not think you said " As I continued through the article I noticed that they mention that Mr. Moore flew to London on the Concord and stayed at the Ritz and rented a cheap room to hold his interviews in to maintain his image as a "man of the people" If memory serves me didn't the concord crash in mid 2000. The article points out that he hired mostly white men to the high spots in his film production staff the majority being producers....now correct me if I am wrong but aren't producers the money men and not hired staff?" You did say it. What does the Concord chrashing have to do with anything? And you were wrong about the role of a producer.... your falsehoods were good enough for Owner 59 though. luckydog1: What falsehoods, of mine, have you pointed out? What "debunking" have I claimed to have done? The definition that you posted states that the primary function of a producer is financing. It would appear that you are seeking argument where non exist. thompson

Owner59 -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/15/2007 8:46:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 "The article points out that he hired mostly white men to the high spots in his film production staff the majority being producers....now correct me if I am wrong but aren't producers the money men and not hired staff? " No, the article points out that virtually every position down to Camera Man and Music Score was filled by a white, which goes against his public proclimations, and what he wrote in "stupid White Men" Now according to IMBD.com glossary of film terms.. Producer AKA: Prod The chief of staff of a movie production in all matters save the creative efforts of the director, who is head of the line. A producer is responsible for raising funding, hiring key personnel, and arranging for distributors. See also associate producer, co-producer, executive producer, line producer, Producer's Guild of America. Consider yourself wrong and corrected, and thanks owner59 for chiming in with false data. I agree Google is great for checking on stuff like this. So what exactly did you 2 debunk? So what if Moore hires a lot of white people?lol WTF?! What,are we bean counting here?Keeping score?How silly. Your thorough description of production companies is,well,.... pointless. The problem here,and you missed it,is the proposition that Moore is a racist,or has a problem with black people,because he used mostly white people ,on this one particular film.You`re counting beans,and googling definitions,trying to play"gotcha",and you`re missing the bigger point.Which is,..... the ugly and personal nature of the attack,the racial component and the pettiness,that are used to try to distract people from the subject at hand.That`s low.and dirty.What kind of twisted minds come up w/ this stuff?Certainly not people who want to debate the facts,or the solutions.But it`s worked for a long time. It`s simple,trash the producer,w/ outrageous and false claims and half truths,and you`re no longer talking about the film he produced or it`s subject matter.See? Have you checked out the other films,HBO shows,and projects he`s done?Have you done the bean counting and morbid number crunching there also,to figure out if Moore is a hypocrite? The trash piece you`re defending didn`t speak to the issues in the film,or the points of contention.It attacked Moorse`s character and integrity. The inference, that Moore is bigoted,or hypocritical about hiring blacks,and the personal nature of the attacks,is pure right wing.Not sure what`s worse,the asses who create this trash,or those who repeat it. Let me put it this way.If a guy told me that Hollywood was controlled by Jews,that would be a red flag for me,even if the guy could prove that every director and producer had a Jewish sounding name.He could present those "facts" any way he wanted to,in any context or w/ any twisted logic , he`d turn me off,right away.Just the fact that he went there with the low brow,idiotic reasoning,would be enough to know not to listen to him,about this or ANY other point he had,regardless. That`s how I feel about the bean counters,who`re trying to criticize Moore on "not hiring blacks. You see,there`s no need to "debunk",this kind of crap,or the low lifes who produce it. But you gotta admit it,though,luckdog got us off the subject of healthcare.Good dog! Now back to heathcare and the issuses.... Question,why do Americans pay twice as much per person for healthcare ,as do our European counterparts ? Assuming that`s true for arguments sake,what explains this?(it is true,btw) Peace

luckydog1 -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/15/2007 1:04:45 PM)
As I read it the thread is about whether or not MM is a hypocrite, Hence the title " A Hypocrite Exposed" I guess Owner & thompson never read "stupid white Men", because in it, Moore calls a lot of people and industry racist, and declares that he will hire mostly blacks in the future, yet he didn't. Is it racist to point out he was lying while calling others racists, accusing other of what he does? He spent a chapter in his book about how other people in Film (and America) are racist, yet it is racist and right wing to point this out? Go figure. Ona larger scale there is a lot more to the health status of a society than simply the Health care. Since Europeons drive far less than we do, they have fewer traffic accidents. A drunk chrashing his bicycle costs less to care for than a drunk chrashing his car. The violence in our cities drives up a lot of costs. Our hedonism (and I think everyone on a kink site can be considered a hedonist) costs money. The size of our nation requires a lot of travel costs which are part of the health care( a medivac with a doctor on board is pretty damn expensive. An example I am familiar with was while working in a Salmon Processing plant here in Alaska a worker was not using his saftey cuffs while operating the hydraulic beheader and cut of his hand. With in minutes a Medivac helicopter was brought from the nearest town, to take him to Anchorage (about 45 minutes from the accident) a Jet was ready to take off and had him in Seattle in hours and his hand was re-attached (at no cost to the worker). In many places he would simply get the stump cleaned up and a nice prostetic, much cheaper. Stuff like that skews the averages. As does the flood of lower class illegal immigrants. To compare with a totalitarian state like Cuba is simply nonsense. If the Gov could kill, forcibly re-educate, and/or mass exile anyone deemed unpatriotic. If you do it as a ratio it would come up close to 40 million Americans since the 70s, and I am sure the health care costs would be very different, much lower. I actually do dispute the numbers he uses. As I understand it, the number is based on the amount of money spent on Health Care/ Medical in a nation divided by the number of Citizens. This would include rich Europeons ( among others) coming to America for Cosmetic Surgery, and all kinds of distortions of these averages. Moore does this with gun death stats in BFC (comparing all deaths in the USA, including proper use of force by police and self defense, to illegal gun deaths,exempting proper use, in other nations). Feel free to give me a breakdown on the stats correcting me, I could be wrong on the health stats, though I doubt it. That being said, I do think our Health Care System is pretty messed up and needs serious reform, and the Europeon model has many good ideas to consider. My biggest Beef with Moore is that he consistently uses editorials and pretends they are news. It is incredibly dishonest (and would get a person a F in an academic setting) to claim the "New York Times" reports... And then have a footnote to a collumist pick up stupid white men and see for yourself, or ridiculously a letter to the editor as he did in F911). Opinion pieces are not vetted by the news staff, and the paper does not stand by thier accuracy in anyway, but he knows his target audience either does'nt care or isn't smart enough to notice. He makes mad cash at it though......

Owner59 -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/15/2007 5:09:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 As I read it the thread is about whether or not MM is a hypocrite, Hence the title " A Hypocrite Exposed" I guess Owner & thompson never read "stupid white Men", because in it, Moore calls a lot of people and industry racist, and declares that he will hire mostly blacks in the future, yet he didn't. Is it racist to point out he was lying while calling others racists, accusing other of what he does? He spent a chapter in his book about how other people in Film (and America) are racist, yet it is racist and right wing to point this out? Go figure. Ona larger scale there is a lot more to the health status of a society than simply the Health care. Since Europeons drive far less than we do, they have fewer traffic accidents. A drunk chrashing his bicycle costs less to care for than a drunk chrashing his car. The violence in our cities drives up a lot of costs. Our hedonism (and I think everyone on a kink site can be considered a hedonist) costs money. The size of our nation requires a lot of travel costs which are part of the health care( a medivac with a doctor on board is pretty damn expensive. An example I am familiar with was while working in a Salmon Processing plant here in Alaska a worker was not using his saftey cuffs while operating the hydraulic beheader and cut of his hand. With in minutes a Medivac helicopter was brought from the nearest town, to take him to Anchorage (about 45 minutes from the accident) a Jet was ready to take off and had him in Seattle in hours and his hand was re-attached (at no cost to the worker). In many places he would simply get the stump cleaned up and a nice prostetic, much cheaper. Stuff like that skews the averages. As does the flood of lower class illegal immigrants. To compare with a totalitarian state like Cuba is simply nonsense. If the Gov could kill, forcibly re-educate, and/or mass exile anyone deemed unpatriotic. If you do it as a ratio it would come up close to 40 million Americans since the 70s, and I am sure the health care costs would be very different, much lower. I actually do dispute the numbers he uses. As I understand it, the number is based on the amount of money spent on Health Care/ Medical in a nation divided by the number of Citizens. This would include rich Europeons ( among others) coming to America for Cosmetic Surgery, and all kinds of distortions of these averages. Moore does this with gun death stats in BFC (comparing all deaths in the USA, including proper use of force by police and self defense, to illegal gun deaths,exempting proper use, in other nations). Feel free to give me a breakdown on the stats correcting me, I could be wrong on the health stats, though I doubt it. That being said, I do think our Health Care System is pretty messed up and needs serious reform, and the Europeon model has many good ideas to consider. My biggest Beef with Moore is that he consistently uses editorials and pretends they are news. It is incredibly dishonest (and would get a person a F in an academic setting) to claim the "New York Times" reports... And then have a footnote to a collumist pick up stupid white men and see for yourself, or ridiculously a letter to the editor as he did in F911). Opinion pieces are not vetted by the news staff, and the paper does not stand by thier accuracy in anyway, but he knows his target audience either does'nt care or isn't smart enough to notice. He makes mad cash at it though...... So the answer to why Europe pays just half per person than we do for health care,...is our Hedonism? Come again?If I was sean hannity,I`d attack you for"blaming America first"lol,cry about the liberals taking away my Hummer,and salty foods boiled in trans-fat.When anyone suggests, say removing trans-fat from public eating establishments,the right screams and yells about the heavy hand of government,imposing a "nanny state" on us.Good god! Don`t people in Europe get sick,and die too.Is the difference really lifestyle?Or,.....could it be,... that their system works.Can we not have an honest look? Luckdog: **"It is incredibly dishonest (and would get a person a F in an academic setting) to claim the "New York Times" reports... And then have a footnote to a collumist "** Really? Can you point to any facts cited by Moore,that are footnoted to a columnist(as you claim),that aren`t correct on their own merit or known to be true?Not just an accusation,but an example or two,showing this dis-honesty you claim.Here`s your chance to do a Michael Moore, on Michael Moore. Luckydog" "He makes mad cash at it though......" So you`re against the free enterprise system,hmm.If I was sean hannity,I`d question your commitment to capitalism and accuse you of being a marxist.he-he But seriously,the reason he does well is that people buy(and believe) and pay for what he does.If he had less credibility,he wouldn`t do as well, or at all.This is the free market of ideas,and people are buying his ideas. Moore knows that the problems aren`t only w/ the costs.There is the quality,the fact that you can lose your house and or be ruined financially,and the issues of finding out that what you think is covered,isn`t,and people dying unnecessarily,because bureaucrats and not doctors are making decisions..I believe the biggest culprit here is the insurance industry.They`re getting away w/ murder figuratively and literally.(btw,you can`t lose your house or property,in Europe or Canada,because of health care costs,think about that) Luckydog: "but he knows his target audience either does'nt care or isn't smart enough to notice." They care alright,that`s why they`re forced to go to a movie theater ,of all places,to get the important information that people want.The main steam press is not stepping up,as they should,and raking the mock. You`re talking about a majority of America.Another interesting development,is support for universal health care by industry and some chambers of commerce. People do care,and would listen,if only the press fulfilled their responsibility.If the press had done their jobs(as we once counted on them to do),we might have avoided the catastrophe in Iraq.That was one of Moore`s rants on CNN,that the press failed to do their jobs and asked hard questions ,and that good men and women were dead and dying because of it. Scott Ritter,should have been given a platform to share what he knew about Iraq and WMD.Instead,the press cut him off at the knees,and fed him to the character assassins,making him seem un-credible.Now the well financed character assassins are at work on Mr Moore. Peace

luckydog1 -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/15/2007 7:20:02 PM)
Your a funny little man Owner. enjoy your rant. But do you really think sales = credibility? "If he had less credibility,he wouldn`t do as well, or at all.This is the free market of ideas,and people are buying his ideas." You actually think the majority of Americans go to MM films? Not too bright on your part. I understand you will not pick up a copy of 'stupid White Men and look at the footnotes. You would fall under the catagory of don't care I suppose. And Yeah really citing a letter to the editor would get you an F in an academic circle if you claimed it was the opinion of the media outlet. "So the answer to why Europe pays just half per person than we do for health care,...is our Hedonism? " I suppose your problem with reading comprehension is a large part of your problem Owner. I listed several differences of which hedonism was one. I never claimed it was the reason. Probably over your head. And I clearly stated that our system is fucked, and we should examine and copy effective parts of the Europeon models of Health Care.

Owner59 -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/15/2007 9:07:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 "The article points out that he hired mostly white men to the high spots in his film production staff the majority being producers....now correct me if I am wrong but aren't producers the money men and not hired staff? " No, the article points out that virtually every position down to Camera Man and Music Score was filled by a white, which goes against his public proclimations, and what he wrote in "stupid White Men" Now according to IMBD.com glossary of film terms.. Producer AKA: Prod The chief of staff of a movie production in all matters save the creative efforts of the director, who is head of the line. A producer is responsible for raising funding, hiring key personnel, and arranging for distributors. See also associate producer, co-producer, executive producer, line producer, Producer's Guild of America. Consider yourself wrong and corrected, and thanks owner59 for chiming in with false data. I agree Google is great for checking on stuff like this. So what exactly did you 2 debunk? Luckydog: "And I clearly stated that our system is fucked, and we should examine and copy effective parts of the Europeon models of Health Care." Great!,that`s what Mr. Moore is talking about,thank you. "Consider yourself wrong and corrected",as you put it( a real lol moment for me,btw),and stick to the subject,not Michael Moore or your bias opinion of him. When I challenged you to cite an example of Moore`s dishonesty,by citing a letter to the editor that he uses as fact or quoting a columnist,you couldn`t. Perhaps, being seen in their contexts,your examples don`t wash ,as proof of dishonesty.Is that why you failed to cite them? Just because Moore cites an opinion,doesn`t mean that it`s not empirical fact or established as true.Fox news is powered by citing opinion as fact, and it`s rarely true.Moore cites many sourses,multipal sourse,and not only on an opinion piece ,solely. You complain that he`s dishonest.Show us how.Cite the example,show the article or opinion piece that Moore uses as a source,and point out the rub.Point out what`s misleading or dishonest about the footnoting, in regards to Moores contentions. If you`re correct,it shouldn`t be hard to do.I`m not just going to take your word for it.It`ll take more than just you saying so,show us how. Peace

luckydog1 -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/15/2007 10:58:37 PM)
Owner, if you for some reason do not want to check out "the footnotes of "stupid white men" you can continue to feign ignorance. There is no context where you can claim sourcing you do not have. You can Google, download and watch "farenhype 911" if you want a nice neat package of his disortions. the subject of this thread is MM and his hypocrisy...so talking about him, his body of work, and his behavior is on topic, what have you decided to hijack the thread to? I am sorry you have a difficult time reading and comprehending. "Consider yourself wrong and corrected", was clearly a response to Thompsonx not you, and I quoted him and responded to it. You incorrectly chimed in saying Thompson was right (when he was in fact not). It seems like most of your replies to me are based on intentional misreading. Why do you have to resort to such if you are right?

Alumbrado -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/16/2007 7:31:18 AM)
quote: Why do you have to resort to such if you are right? Always a good point.

Vendaval -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/17/2007 12:12:16 AM)
I agree with you wholeheartedly, domiguy. Moore is a controversial figure and he provokes people enough that they begin talking about important topics. I do not always agree with him but do have much admiration for his willingness to take risks and state his opinions. quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Why not make the attempt to right the ship? There is something seriously wrong with this country when it comes to health care.....Whether you agree with Moore or not....He gets a dialogue started on a subject that is in dire need of overhaul.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/17/2007 4:04:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 the subject of this thread is MM and his hypocrisy...so talking about him, his body of work, and his behavior is on topic, what have you decided to hijack the thread to? Yeah, the interesting thing about that is that it's not actually interesting! I don't give a fuck if Moore is a hypocrite! I don't agree with everything he has ever said, nor every film he has ever made, nor every book he has ever written. I have previously noted he is shrill and grandstanding. I also agree that he does many things to drum up attention and outrage, that there is sometimes more showmanship than incisive political commentary going on. But I also didn't go see a movie like "The Last Samurai" because I love Tom Cruise personally and think Scientology is where it's at. I think Scientology is a crock of shit, Tom Cruise comes across like he might be a total jackass in real life - but despite those defects I actually enjoyed "The Last Samurai" for the sort of high adventure film that it is. I don't have to love the messenger nor everything he has ever said or believed in simply to enjoy the message he delivered as a film entertainment. So yes, I can enjoy "The Last Samurai" even though Tom Cruise might be a jackass scientologist and Scientology itself might be a total crock of shit. Tom Cruise might even be a closet homosexual (wink, wink) and I would still enjoy the occasional action adventure film in which he might play the lead role as a tough as dirt, action-man, heterosexual! Allow me to be ultra-didactic: personal attacks on a speaker are immaterial to his message and the gravity with which we might receive his words. Consider that lesson one in my on-going off-topic series "Rhetoric for Dumbasses." What's interesting about Moore is what he is saying right now, today. And I agree with him in the main with the message in his latest documentary. I don't have to agree with everything he ever did to also agree with his overall message in "Sicko." I mean, maybe he ass raped a dog when he was eleven years old - am I supposed to care about that now when he is making good sense in discussing how alienated from its original purposes the healthcare system in the U.S. has become by the year 2007? But then he probably never did ass rape a dog; he's only made his sometimes unpopular opinions known about other political subjects. How the plot thickens... The only point of this thread is character assassination. Rhetorically it's called an "ad hominem" attack. It's most effective when it's not really possible to assail the true subject of controversy - in this case, Moore's many observations on the broken state of healthcare in the United States. So when the true subject cannot be debated in a meaningful way - mainly because any idiot can see that Moore's overall message is demonstrably true - it becomes tremendously important to attack the messenger and personally discredit him if at all possible. So remember, Moore ass raped a dog when he was eleven - you heard about it here first. That's important! ... Things that are not important or interesting: -------------------------------------------------------- It is now probably nigh close to impossible to receive adequate healthcare even when one has medical insurance. Even though one has insurance bankruptcy still looms for those with catastrophic conditions not covered by their policies. Insurance companies have to make a profit. This means they will try to deny care and still make a profit even though you have cancer and they have deep pockets. Too bad for you: treatment denied!

thompsonx -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/17/2007 11:28:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 As I read it the thread is about whether or not MM is a hypocrite, Hence the title " A Hypocrite Exposed" I guess Owner & thompson never read "stupid white Men", because in it, Moore calls a lot of people and industry racist, and declares that he will hire mostly blacks in the future, yet he didn't. How do you know this? You read a posting on an anti Moore website. What are there 14 producers, three camera men and two music composers. I always thought there were more people than that involved in making a movie. How do you know how many people were not white on this movie except from the anti Moore site. Have you checked any further? Do you even know how many people of color were employed in making this video? Is it racist to point out he was lying while calling others racists, accusing other of what he does? He spent a chapter in his book about how other people in Film (and America) are racist, yet it is racist and right wing to point this out? Go figure. Ona larger scale there is a lot more to the health status of a society than simply the Health care. Since Europeons drive far less than we do, they have fewer traffic accidents. A drunk chrashing his bicycle costs less to care for than a drunk chrashing his car. The violence in our cities drives up a lot of costs. Our hedonism (and I think everyone on a kink site can be considered a hedonist) costs money. The size of our nation requires a lot of travel costs which are part of the health care( a medivac with a doctor on board is pretty damn expensive. An example I am familiar with was while working in a Salmon Processing plant here in Alaska a worker was not using his saftey cuffs while operating the hydraulic beheader and cut of his hand. With in minutes a Medivac helicopter was brought from the nearest town, to take him to Anchorage (about 45 minutes from the accident) a Jet was ready to take off and had him in Seattle in hours and his hand was re-attached (at no cost to the worker). In many places he would simply get the stump cleaned up and a nice prostetic, much cheaper. Stuff like that skews the averages. As does the flood of lower class illegal immigrants. To compare with a totalitarian state like Cuba is simply nonsense. If the Gov could kill, forcibly re-educate, and/or mass exile anyone deemed unpatriotic. Do you have any data to substantiate your claim that the Cuban government has killed and/or mass exiled anyone that was deemed unpatriotic? If you do it as a ratio it would come up close to 40 million Americans since the 70s, and I am sure the health care costs would be very different, much lower. Just what would be different and lower? I actually do dispute the numbers he uses. As I understand it, the number is based on the amount of money spent on Health Care/ Medical in a nation divided by the number of Citizens. This would include rich Europeons ( among others) coming to America for Cosmetic Surgery, Do you have anything to substantiate this claim? and all kinds of distortions of these averages. Moore does this with gun death stats in BFC (comparing all deaths in the USA, including proper use of force by police and self defense, to illegal gun deaths,exempting proper use, in other nations). Feel free to give me a breakdown on the stats correcting me, I could be wrong on the health stats, though I doubt it. That being said, I do think our Health Care System is pretty messed up and needs serious reform, and the Europeon model has many good ideas to consider. My biggest Beef with Moore is that he consistently uses editorials and pretends they are news. It is incredibly dishonest (and would get a person a F in an academic setting) to claim the "New York Times" reports... And then have a footnote to a collumist pick up stupid white men and see for yourself, or ridiculously a letter to the editor as he did in F911). Opinion pieces are not vetted by the news staff, and the paper does not stand by thier accuracy in anyway, but he knows his target audience either does'nt care or isn't smart enough to notice. A letter to the editor is vetted only for vulgarities but editorials are the opinion of the newspaper and as such can and should be quoted and cited as such. He makes mad cash at it though...... Does it offend you that someone in the free enterprise system makes money?

thompsonx -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/17/2007 11:48:25 AM)
pp quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Owner, if you for some reason do not want to check out "the footnotes of "stupid white men" you can continue to feign ignorance. There is no context where you can claim sourcing you do not have. You can Google, download and watch "farenhype 911" if you want a nice neat package of his disortions. the subject of this thread is MM and his hypocrisy...so talking about him, his body of work, and his behavior is on topic, what have you decided to hijack the thread to? I am sorry you have a difficult time reading and comprehending. "Consider yourself wrong and corrected", was clearly a response to Thompsonx not you, and I quoted him and responded to it. So far you have not been able to do either. You incorrectly chimed in saying Thompson was right (when he was in fact not). It seems like most of your replies to me are based on intentional misreading. Why do you have to resort to such if you are right?

Sinergy -> RE: A Hypocrite Exposed (7/17/2007 1:00:00 PM)
I have not seen his movie, although from what I understand it is a film based on the (mis)treatment of people in the United States at the hands of Big Medicine. I have my own story (from 14 years ago) about being at the business end of Big Medicine's Iron Bootheel, denying me proper care, doing whatever they could to try to keep me from complaining, and treating me like shit to save money, so I will probably empathize and understand where his film is coming from. I can only hope you people who think Michael Moore is a hypocrite and a liar never have to live through what he is documenting. I dont agree with everything he says, but a lot of what he shows in his films makes a lot more sense than the drivel emanating from the cowed media and the administration. Sinergy

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