Addiction and a Sub's Demands

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ladychatterley -> Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 2:42:50 PM)
Last month I got dumped, mostly because He wanted more time for his addiction. He has said it is an addiction, but that he likes it and wants to live with it rather than stop. Last night, he finally said, no. "This isn't working. I can't do this. I don't know what this means for us." I'm trying to figure out what it means for me before we have our big talk later today. I got dumped for an addiction, which hurt SO bad. I still feel deeply hurt that he could look at me and an addiction and choose the addiction. Part of me believes if he loved me more, he wouldn't have made that choice. And yet there are some underlying, really good things, namely that we are good friends, good roommates, and good lovers. I'm torn between wanting to wait a few months, while I date around, and see if he stays off his addiction or saying if he goes to 12-steps, I will stay with him. I'm worried if I give an ultimatum (12-steps or I'll walk), it will have some sort of deep impact on the power exchange that we wouldn't recover from in the long run. OTOH, he's a hell of a lot more likely to get healthier if I'm in his life. I've always been the one trying to ask for healthier habits, from exercising together to eating healthier, to the point that that has become the things he does for me (and not any of the movies I like, hobbies I like, etc.). That has felt deeply out of whack to me. Mostly though, I want to find ways for more joy, in and out of bed, for both of us. Anyway, any thoughts on my rambling musings would be welcome.

camille65 -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 2:51:31 PM)
I'm not so sure that it's a matter of 'choosing an addiction over choosing me'. From my experience, addiction isn't something you can easily or readily walk away from. By its very nature addiction pollutes the focus on priorities.

AquaticSub -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 3:07:20 PM)
What addiction is it and how much is he willing to control it? Many people have an addiction, it is only that the thing they are addicted to is socially approved of, like running or work. I have my own addiction and loving Valyraen any more couldn't rid of it. There just isn't anything I can do about it. It's always going to be there and there only way for me to "conquer" it would be to never have sex again. Not bloody likely huh? I just control it and he helps me so that I get my "fix" from routes we have discussed and he approves of. But, from what your post sounds like, I'm guessing it's one of the more "maintstream" addictions - heroin, crack, booze. I would suggest moving on. This obviously isn't something you want in your life and are willing to deal with. Let him decide if he is willing to conquer his addiction for you, but understand that loving you more isn't going to make that addiction go away. The desire is always going to be there.

DiurnalVampire -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 3:15:14 PM)
My exhusband chose his addiction over me. It is why he is an ex. Trying to compete for his attention with something that is addictive is asking to be let down. You will never "win". He has to make the choice to give up his addiction. He has to choose to move to a 12 step program, or make any other moves towards recovery. If he does it JUST to appease you, then it will do nothing for him. He will be just as addicted, and miserable for having to hide it from you. It sounds like you just have to cut your losses and move on. He has already made his decision. The addiction is more important to him than you are, and that isnt going to change. If he wanted to change it, he would have done wo in the first place and no dumped you to give IT more time. DV

xolarkinxo -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 3:29:27 PM)
*I agree with camille;* *quote:* addiction isn't something you can easily or readily walk away from. I also do not believe giving an ultimatum is going to help. When a person is addicted ,they eventually will hit whatever "rock bottom" is for them and decide to make changes then. It only comes from inside that person. My father is a recovering alcoholic; and even when my mother divorced him he did not stop. He says he wanted to; but, he couldn't at that time. I do not know what eventually made him stop because whatever it was probably was a state of mind due to a series of events. I am not going to tell you what decision you should make regarding staying in or leaving the relationship. That is your decision. You should really think about the fact that you are hurt and angry right now and if you choose to stay in the relationship I'd suggest attending support groups for people who are affected by another's addiction. You might find it helpful. Best of luck to you.

IvyMorgan -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 5:16:22 PM)
IMO staying a relationship because you think that is more likly to make the other person be "healthy" is massivly unfair on you and a receipe for your unhappiness. People have to recover from addictions for themselves. Yes, they can also do it for others, but, if you quit X because your Y would like it, you're far less likely to succeed, and your relationship with Y will suffer. (I say this as someone who's spent a long time counselling teens/young people through quitting self harm of various flavours.) Support someone who wants to quit. But don't make them quit for you.

spiral23 -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 5:43:13 PM)
As a recovering addict and someone who now works in the field....i have to say that an addition is a insane obsession...that the addict part of him will always choose his addiction of choice over..well everything!...you have no control over this...none...no matter what ultimatums you lay down...no matter how long you wait...if he is to get clean...then it has to come within...only he can choose to seek help... he is not going to to get " a hell of a lot healthier if im in his life"...unfortuntly..and im really am sorry to say this...but you will become ill and messed up yourself...thats the nature of his disease...the stress, worry, manipulation, denial, justification etc soon starts to rub off on the person closest to an addict...he has to find his own path to recovery..you cannot lead him.... im sorry if this sounds harsh or depressing...find support with places such as families anonymous..or al-anon...but do that for your own self..they have no cure for others addictions ...just an understanding and empathy for those who love and care for those with an addiction problem..... im not going to pretend to be all knowing expert...but i do feel i can speak with experience...and first hand knowledge of both addiction and treatment..( i now work in a treatment centre)...so if you have any questions please feel free to mail me here on cm... i honestly feel for you and hope one day he is able to sort himself out....

farieanne -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 6:16:15 PM)
The saddest thing about an addiction isn't that they can't love you enough to stop it's that they can't love themselves enough to stop. I smoked for over 20 years and though i tried to quit many times, even did a couple times through pregnancies, i always went back. Then a few times i had a little bit of problems breathing. i finally decided I did not want emphysema, so i quit cold turkey. That was in 2000. Still i have not had a cigarette. IMO i don't think some one can give up an addiction for some one else. It's not a matter of loving their mate enough or wanting to be with them. They may quit for their mate but they will often relapse at some point. The issue is loving themselves enough and quitting for themselves not anyone else. i think when your in a relationship instead of giving an ultimatum and staying IF they quit or if you can CHANGE them you need to decide if this is some thing you want in your life, is it some thing you can live with because, to be honest, even if they do manage to stop it will always be an addiction and the possibility that they will start again is HUGE. So instead of basing your decision on if they stop or not, and rather they picked it over you, you need to decide if this some thing you want and can live with in your live.

imthatacheyouhav -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 6:19:47 PM)
as a former junkie...(i used to shoot up and stuff) i know that i was a MAJOR drain on my family and friends ..but at the time i just didnt care...well i probably did but the drugs killed the pain of the guilt... PLEASE dont be offended by this(OP) but you sound like a classic co-dependent, the "He'll be healthier if i'm in his life" was a DEAD give away hun...HE has to do it himself...you CAN trust me on this. I hope you can find peace with this and love him enough to let him hit bottom...THAT is the hardest thing from what i've been told by my family.

slaveluci -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 6:32:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xolarkinxo I also do not believe giving an ultimatum is going to help. When a person is addicted ,they eventually will hit whatever "rock bottom" is for them and decide to make changes then. It only comes from inside that person Absolutely true. As Candy above me said, I used to be a junkie as well. Several years of addiction and total immersion in needing a fix more than I needed anything else wreaked alot of havoc in my life and damaged alot of relationships. Every person in my life could have given me an ultimatum and it wouldn't have changed anything. I had to do exactly what you said - hit rock bottom - for any change to begin and, even then, it sure wasn't overnight. I never went to counseling or a 12-Step group so I can't speak on how that works. What I did do, though, was decide that I was sick and tired of living as an addict and being controlled by the need for what was in that syringe. In order to overcome my problem, I had to change my entire life. I could no longer have the same "friends" and associates. I could no longer go to the same places and do the same things. I had to decide just what I wanted and did not want in my life and work on keeping the right things/people in or out of it. I have been totally clean for nearly 5 1/2 years now but that is still a continual process (the screening out of what doesn't need to be a part of my life). I have never gotten so cocky as to think that I could be around cocaine or other junkies and that I'd be strong enough to say "no." I honestly don't know if I'd be that strong. I'd love to think I would be and I do think I would be. But, I'm not 100% positive so I don't "go there." I say all that to say this: OP, please understand that him "choosing" his addiction over you isn't quite that simple. For me, for a long time, I really didn't have a choice. Technically I did but the hold my addiction had was soooooo powerful that I felt I didn't. No matter how wonderful you may be, you can't fix him or take his addiction away. As Candy said, that's being co-dependent. You would have him substitute you for the substance he's addicted to. Neither will work. He has to get clean because that's what he wants and only he can decide when and how to do that. My heart goes out to you both.......luci

ladychatterley -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 7:20:01 PM)
I absolutely have some codependent elements, but I think I've kept them mostly, or at least somewhat, under control. (And really, where is the line between submissive and codependent? I say that partially joking, but partially serious.) I may also have overstated the problem. He is addicted to gambling and he finally said he wants to quit, that it isn't bringing him joy. I gave him space to find out for himself, but I also set really clear limits about what was and wasn't OK if he were going to be with me. (He wouldn't have left if I hadn't set limits.) I pulled away from him because I didn't want to become involved in his behaviour, which was numbing him out and hurting us both. It often seems that inertia and bad habits are as strong a force as the draw of the casinos. (I know some people may gamble healthily, and it may not be as strong an addiction as heroin or something, but it is, I believe, a serious addiction when someone puts their job, relationships, and all other hobbies on the side to gamble for 60+ hours a week.) However, I do love him. IF he is serious about following through on quitting, which I know at least part of him is (although I don't know how big a part), then I'm happy to give him a couple more months, assuming he follows through, and that is selfish as well because he is a good friend as well as a lover. All things being equal, I'd rather be with him a year from now, if he follows through, gives up gambling and makes choices to maximize joy and vitality in his life. (And I think/hope gambling must be easier to quit than drugs? Maybe that's naive. I've heard several men liken it to the rush from cocaine, but I can't really believe it is as strong.) If I stay, he will be more likely to make better choices. I'm his closest, maybe his only, real friend and he makes better choices whenever I'm in the picture. While he wouldn't quit smoking for me, being around me helped him quit for him. He has a tendency to overcome inertia for me and be more likely to do what already knows he ought to do. I just don't know if saying "Gamblers Anonymous or I'm out of here" would fundamentally alter the d/s element of our relationship in a way we could never recover from. My gut feeling says that right now, he would do GA if I presented it correctly, that a part of him knows he needs help and wants to live more fully, but another part of him thinks it is cheesy and embarrassing and he would be more likely to if it were under the cover of his 'girlfriend made him.' I think if I say 'call me when you've been clean for 3 months,' it is less likely to work out for both of us. Because one of the factors here is that he's the only man I've ever really loved. So it isn't just co-dependent to want us to work out.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 7:25:11 PM)
The ultimatum isn't for him- it's for you.

slaveluci -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 7:44:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ladychatterley I absolutely have some codependent elements, but I think I've kept them mostly, or at least somewhat, under control. (And really, where is the line between submissive and codependent? I say that partially joking, but partially serious.) Well, my answer to this would begin with the definition of "codependency." Merriam-Webster online dictionary defines it as follows: "a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as an addiction to alcohol or heroin); broadly : dependence on the needs of or control by another" Therefore, the difference between my submission to my Master and being codependent is that Master is not "affected with a pathological condition" or "addiction." quote: I also set really clear limits about what was and wasn't OK if he were going to be with me. (He wouldn't have left if I hadn't set limits.) I pulled away from him because I didn't want to become involved in his behaviour, which was numbing him out and hurting us both Good for you. There is certainly not a thing wrong with deciding and verbalizing what you will and will not accept in your relationship. quote: If I stay, he will be more likely to make better choices. I'm his closest, maybe his only, real friend and he makes better choices whenever I'm in the picture Now see. HERE'S where the codependency is rearing it's ugly head[;)]. If you stay around, he'll make "better", perhaps even "good" decisions. You are his bestest and "only" friend. That's great that you are but all that doesn't change the fact that he needs to fix himself for HIM, not because you are in his life wanting him to do so. quote: I just don't know if saying "Gamblers Anonymous or I'm out of here" would fundamentally alter the d/s element of our relationship in a way we could never recover from I wouldn't give an ultimatum whether I was in a D/s relationship or not. However, I would discuss with him very clearly how much I love him and how I can't fix him but he can work on fixing himself. I would let him know that, if he wishes to live his life with me, that is what he should really consider doing. quote: My gut feeling says that right now, he would do GA if I presented it correctly, that a part of him knows he needs help and wants to live more fully, but another part of him thinks it is cheesy and embarrassing and he would be more likely to if it were under the cover of his 'girlfriend made him Again, it's not your responsibility. If he knows he needs help, then he needs to decide if he wants it. If it's cheesy and embarrassing to seek help with overcoming an addiction and he needs to hide behind the statement that you are "making" him do it, it wouldn't seem to me that he really wants to take that corrective action. I know you may not want to hear what I've said but I'm talking from experience. I loved my husband as much as anyone has ever loved someone and it couldn't fix his addictions. I was the textbook codependent and enabler for years, to the point where I became as much of an addict as he ever was. What I would give to have those wasted years back to spend with Master - a man who doesn't need my "fixing" and who is willing to do what He needs to do to be healthy for HIMSELF as well as me. Bless you and I truly hope all works out well for you both............luci

Arpig -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 8:43:28 PM)
This may come across as harsh, but if he dumped you, aren't you already out of his life?

j2manj2 -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 9:00:12 PM)
Alot of these people have given you VERY EXCELLENT advice, especially those claiming to be "ex" addicts (there's no such animal......they learn to cope, but once an addict, always an addict). Thinking that you "being in his life" will make it better is a CLASSIC enablers mantra.....it WILL make it easier for him------to stay an active addict....that's all.......truly, it may all fall apart once you're out of his life, but that's his only hope ( and not much of one at that!). IT's important to realize what a caring and giving person YOU are, how YOU deserve something so infinitely better than this, and maintaining things status quo (as you seem to be right now) will only help make things remain the same or get progressively worse. Try to really see that you may not be remaining in the relationship "for him" ( you're not) but actually more "for yourself." Inside , you know that it's probably true.....VERY VERY BEST ADVICE.......SHAKE HIM LOOSE>>>GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE....AND WHAT HAPPENS, HAPPENS......any therapist worth his/her salt will tell you the same thing........ONLY HE CAN CORRECT HIMSELF! VERY BEST OF LUCK.......been there, done that!

imthatacheyouhav -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 9:26:23 PM)
quote: "ex" addicts (there's no such animal......they learn to cope, but once an addict, always an addict). in my opinion this is NOT a true statement ....but thats just me...

chellekitty -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/14/2007 10:07:19 PM)
once an addict, always an addit no longer has to be true...but if we ever re-introduce a mood or mind altering substance into our bodies, we will start the cycle all over again, if it doesn't, perhaps we were not addicts...there is a level between social user and addict...you don't get rid of the disease of addiction..but you can put it in remission... as for the OP...are you willing to make sure he doesn't go to the casino (if theres one where you live, you don't have a profile, i can't guess) doesn't play poker, only uses the computer for appropriate things, doesn't buy scratch offs or lotto tickets....basically follow him around to make sure he doesn't gamble? if you are, go for staying with him...if not...well, if you love them, let them go...if they were meant to be with you, they will return...an addict, no matter what their addiction is will never recover till they want to and giving him an ultimatum may work for a while...but it won't last...as for the call me when you've been clean for 3 months...well, good idea in theory, but its like another ultimatum...sets them up for "i've got her back now i can do it once in a while..." and you know it never stays at once in a while...so, in my opinion, let him go, also let him know that the door will be open when he's ready, if you feel that way... good luck chelle

Donnalee -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/15/2007 5:30:16 AM)
In reading your posts, it seems like you've already got your game plan in mind: you want him without the addiction, he currently wants out of his addiction, you feel you can guide him to a healthy lifestyle next to yours, you'd like GA to be a part of the process. With 25 years in the addiction field behind me, what I hear is a great start of a common phase in a couple's recovery. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It's a day to day process that will reveal itself over time. I suggest you seek as much support for yourself as you do for him, and know that you can't be his counselor...it's not fair to you or him. Every recovery looks different. Good Luck!

imthatacheyouhav -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/15/2007 7:21:29 AM)
quote: you don't get rid of the disease of addiction again i personally disagree with this...because i dont believe addiction is a disease. I realize thats not a popular opinion but then again i've never been all that popular...LOL

Celeste43 -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/15/2007 8:58:41 AM)
My ex finally admitted he needed help with his alcoholism when I asked for a divorce. But this case is different, he told you that he doesn't want to change, that he doesn't want to quit. Take him at his word and walk. Do leave him some pamphlets about AA or NA or Gambling Anonymous or whatever his problem is. And you might find it helpful to attend Al-Anon or an ACOA meeting(s) to see why you chose an addict who is not emotionally available to have a relationship with. Because you bear responsibility here too. You picked someone who couldn't give you what you claim you want. Why do that? Usually there are family of origin issues involved that you may want to consider before you find someone else who also isn't available to start another doomed relationship with.

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