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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 10:07:57 AM

Najakcharmer

Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

first, i don't believe in RACK, or SSC or any other politically correct acronym. as far as the lifestyle (whether D/s or BDSM) goes, i believe in consent, and that if all parties involved are consenting, then it is not the business of any outsider to interfere or slander. in the case of slavery, where many believe a slave's consent is given once and only once, then whatever befalls said slave according to the Master's will is his right, after the slave has made that final choice.

The reason folks get concerned about other people's choices about extreme SM play that results in serious consequences is not necessarily about political correctness.

If some yahoo kills his slave, or comes darn close to it, because they were doing something they both consented to, what happens to them is their own business - but there are also consequences and fallout for me and my local BDSM community when his stupid stunt hits the six o'clock news. That fallout does immediately affect me and mine, so it is in fact my business what they are doing when it leads to those kinds of consequences.

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 21

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 10:11:09 AM

fairerthanshe

Posts: 3035
Joined: 1/18/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I do think people should be aware of the risks when engaging in bdsm. I am more of a RACK mentality than an SSC mentality because I consider the ramifications of engaging in play. And that includes legal risks involved. Just because someone agrees to something does not make it legal. Let's say someone wants to be castrated. For the "victim", a body part is lost. But if it comes to light the person who did the castrating might be prosecuted. The risk to the first person is loss of a body part, possible urinary problems, blood loss, maybe infection or death. The risk to the second is jail time, guilt, maybe even to become a victim of violence, because you never know how people might react to someone willing to do this. Vigiliantism is alive and well.

I do not see RACK as an excuse to do what ever you want without consideration. There is much more involved than mere physical risk. You have to look, and measure mental, emotional, physical and legal risks. Often those risks carry well beyond the momentary physical high. I tend to stress the AWARE part when I choose what I do.

Those that are not considering all of it, take their chances and should also accept the risks.
Kyst

Greetings Kyst,

That's exactly why I say personal responsibility needs to be factored in to the equation. If you consent to doing something with another that has possible legal implications, then accept the responsibility if the consequences go to the nth degree. On either side, if you consent as a bottom and it doesn't turn out the way you thought, too bad, quit bitching and get over it.

Let me clarify it, person A submits with person B. Person B does everything that person A agreed to do, nothing went over any lines or boundaries that were discussed and put into place. Person A decides they really didn't like or enjoy the experience and now claims that person B is bad/evil/wicked/abusive because of the scene.

That is not taking personal responisibility for the choice person A made to be involved in the scene to begin with.

RACK and personal responsibility go hand in hand.

well wishes ~ fairer than she

_____________________________

The Nuclear Bomb of Awesome, rockin' the MoFo Hawk, still a bad-ass with a bouncy attitude, and spreading joy as a predator in Hello Kitty panties

Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

(in reply to Missokyst)

Post #: 22

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 10:18:26 AM

gooddogbenji

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer
If some yahoo kills his slave, or comes darn close to it, because they were doing something they both consented to, what happens to them is their own business - but there are also consequences and fallout for me and my local BDSM community when his stupid stunt hits the six o'clock news. That fallout does immediately affect me and mine, so it is in fact my business what they are doing when it leads to those kinds of consequences.

All of our behaviour reflects on a larger group. I, for one, have made it my mission to make hospitality seem like a bunch of depraved perverts.

Seriously though, when you hit the news having flogged a boy in your backyard, or during an accidental police raid of your neighbour's house, or whatever, you look bad on your neighbourhood, your work, family, whatever. That is something we all live with, and banning someone because you are ashamed of their actions would ban more people than you would like.

Besides, I can't really affect the prejudice and ignorance of others.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

Post #: 23

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 10:19:55 AM

gooddogbenji

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fairerthanshe

RACK and personal responsibility go hand in hand.

I disagree. Everything and personal responsibility go hand in hand.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

Post #: 24

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 10:25:27 AM

AdventurousLife

Posts: 72
Status: offline

quote:

If some yahoo kills his slave, or comes darn close to it, because they were doing something they both consented to, what happens to them is their own business - but there are also consequences and fallout for me and my local BDSM community when his stupid stunt hits the six o'clock news. That fallout does immediately affect me and mine, so it is in fact my business what they are doing when it leads to those kinds of consequences.

This is the excuse for tyranny used by every dictator, thug, mafia boss, and president in history.

If something happens and there is a media stink that associates "BDSM" with "abuse".... it is media propaganda that hurt the community, and the event that happened is simply an excuse.

Attempting to somehow get control internally to prevent such an incident can't work because the ones who are going to abuse are not going to pay attention to any acronym.

I may be wrong about the purpose and goals of RACK, but I am sensitive to the above "I get power because this affects me" line of argument.

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

Post #: 25

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 10:31:22 AM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

Without question! I think what bugs me most about our current society is that people tend to say, "It's not my fault" when things go wrong. Sure, many times things are not in our hands and it may not be our fault when a car crashes into your bumper (for instance). But when you engage in activity that is risky, whether it is BDSM or a hot dog eating contest, there is a degree of personal responsibility involved. I wish more people remembered that.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: fairerthanshe

RACK and personal responsibility go hand in hand.

I disagree. Everything and personal responsibility go hand in hand.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Post #: 26

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 10:33:18 AM

lateralist1

Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

Abuse is rife and almost accepted in the vanilla world. Corporal punishment in schools and by parents etc. To actually seek consent for what they wish to do, even if it is only once, is a major step forward for a lot of people.
Entering the lifestyle has helped me enormously as a person. It's too difficult to explain why here but for most of my life I have been teetering on suicidal. I'm not anymore.
I truly believe it is more help than harm to most people. There are always going to be people because of ill health or criminal tendencies who will take it too far for their own well being. But then they probably would have done something equally damaging with out the influences of the lifestyle ideas. People are constantly helping people to be wary and be safe. You don't get the kind of help in the vanilla world as you get in the lifestyle. Of course not everyone's helpful but thats people I'm afraid.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 27

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 10:45:04 AM

sadomasokisti

Posts: 221
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Iceland
Status: offline

In a few years time a new cool version of RACK or SSC will be adopted by some groups of pervy ppl.

I don't care about RACK and use SSC to differentiate between violence and BDSM. RACK tells me nothing that SSC does not already. It's all about personal responsibility and consent. You know what you are doing and consenting to it. Otherwise it's usually in the violence category.

And to the OP... yes it could in my view be regarded as SSC. In the latter case I would ask questions about sanity. If a doctor or a psychologist would/could verify about their sanity... I don't see a problem so SSC it is.

< Message edited by sadomasokisti -- 7/19/2007 10:52:38 AM >

_____________________________

Pain is good. Extreme pain is extremely good

(in reply to lateralist1)

Post #: 28

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 10:51:01 AM

nephandi

Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

Hi

i agree whit you. Ideally it should be just between the parties involved in the activity, and in the case of Master and slave, the choice of the Master how far things is to go. But like mentioned before on the tread, the problem is that is somone harm or kill his slave or submissive, even if it was consensual, that affect the rest of the BDSM sosiety very badly. In ideology i agree, but i also feel that it is not the induvidual household or pair's right to paint the whole comunity black in the eyes of the masses.

i wish this was a world that followed the Wiccan rede: If it harms none, do what you will. meaning for me if all is consenting and it harms no one else, do what you will, but unfortunatly that is not the case, the media and pepole aredy often look at us like crased serial killers, and it is not made any better by to extreme stuff being done.

i wish you well

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 29

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 10:52:48 AM

spiral23

Posts: 1053
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline

i agree with personnal responsibilty..and i have no problem with informed healthy people engaging in extreme acts...even if its way more extreme than what i would go to....

the worry comes about if someone who is emotionly damaged..that though they may say yes...and be involved with the planning of the act...but they are in fact running on self destructive of self abusive impulses that are not even remotely healthy...this may even be on a sub concious level...if that is the case..is it truly consensual?...

(in reply to lateralist1)

Post #: 30

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 11:05:17 AM

gooddogbenji

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline

As consensual as you agreeing to anything....

Unless, of course, you want to set up a government agency which decides who can consent to what.....

We all have baggage somewhere. Some would say our entire community is fucked up, should we even be allowed to vote?

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to spiral23)

Post #: 31

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 11:06:20 AM

Najakcharmer

Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdventurousLife

quote:

If some yahoo kills his slave, or comes darn close to it, because they were doing something they both consented to, what happens to them is their own business - but there are also consequences and fallout for me and my local BDSM community when his stupid stunt hits the six o'clock news. That fallout does immediately affect me and mine, so it is in fact my business what they are doing when it leads to those kinds of consequences.

This is the excuse for tyranny used by every dictator, thug, mafia boss, and president in history.

If something happens and there is a media stink that associates "BDSM" with "abuse".... it is media propaganda that hurt the community, and the event that happened is simply an excuse.

Attempting to somehow get control internally to prevent such an incident can't work because the ones who are going to abuse are not going to pay attention to any acronym.

I may be wrong about the purpose and goals of RACK, but I am sensitive to the above "I get power because this affects me" line of argument.

That is an excellent point actually. What I personally had in mind when I stated that other people's extreme play becomes my business because it affects me was not my right to control or regulate their behavior, but my right to speak out publically to let such folks know that their actions affected people other than themselves who did not consent. Basically what I'm interested in is defending my own right to speak out freely, to disseminate information and to educate others as to the impact their actions may have on other people.

However you're quite right that the argument can go too far in the other direction and be used as an excuse for wannabe dictators to gain control. I do think it's okay for people to speak out and encourage reasonable community standards for our safety as a whole. For instance, it's not okay to do breath play or other significantly risky forms of play at most public events, because if somebody codes at a play party, it can affect everyone in attendance. It's fair for a host to set those rules, and also fair for people to speak out and ask others in their community to be careful and think hard before taking those risks at home. It's not fair to pass absolute laws that say nobody is allowed to take any risks with their own safety in their own homes.

There's always going to be a fine line between not wanting to restrict people's freedoms and keeping a society reasonably peaceful, and it is never going to be an easy line to draw. I do not have the freedom to drive the wrong way on the freeway, or to shoot people on the street and take their money. My freedoms are restricted in those instances because they would interfere substantially with other people's freedoms. Where any given society draws those lines is going to depend on the society. I don't think that the right to speak out and offer information, commentary and opinion is something that should ever be restricted.

< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 7/19/2007 11:07:13 AM >

(in reply to AdventurousLife)

Post #: 32

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 11:21:51 AM

fairerthanshe

Posts: 3035
Joined: 1/18/2007
Status: offline

Greetings Naja,

What I see happening at public parties is a uniformality of play. The scenes have become as predictable and homogenized as possible so as not to offend or even have the appearance of edge play. The mentorship programs create cookie cutter dominants who never vary their routines. Flog flog flog, spank spank, flog flog flog...repetitious scripted scenes with no creativity, freshness or embellishment.

I would love to see more creativity, more edge play, more risk taken in the public venues so that everyone can be exposed to it, see it and in some way understand it better.

well wishes ~ fairer than she

_____________________________

The Nuclear Bomb of Awesome, rockin' the MoFo Hawk, still a bad-ass with a bouncy attitude, and spreading joy as a predator in Hello Kitty panties

Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

Post #: 33

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 11:23:29 AM

DarkDaddyZ

Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer
That is an excellent point actually. What I personally had in mind when I stated that other people's extreme play becomes my business because it affects me was not my right to control or regulate their behavior, but my right to speak out publically to let such folks know that their actions affected people other than themselves who did not consent. Basically what I'm interested in is defending my own right to speak out freely, to disseminate information and to educate others as to the impact their actions may have on other people.

However you're quite right that the argument can go too far in the other direction and be used as an excuse for wannabe dictators to gain control. I do think it's okay for people to speak out and encourage reasonable community standards for our safety as a whole. For instance, it's not okay to do breath play or other significantly risky forms of play at most public events, because if somebody codes at a play party, it can affect everyone in attendance. It's fair for a host to set those rules, and also fair for people to speak out and ask others in their community to be careful and think hard before taking those risks at home. It's not fair to pass absolute laws that say nobody is allowed to take any risks with their own safety in their own homes.

There's always going to be a fine line between not wanting to restrict people's freedoms and keeping a society reasonably peaceful, and it is never going to be an easy line to draw. I do not have the freedom to drive the wrong way on the freeway, or to shoot people on the street and take their money. My freedoms are restricted in those instances because they would interfere substantially with other people's freedoms. Where any given society draws those lines is going to depend on the society. I don't think that the right to speak out and offer information, commentary and opinion is something that should ever be restricted.

I agree with this even when I struggle with the community's mission to appear as normal as everyone else. I miss the underground elements of BDSM, I miss it something awful, but still I have my personal opinions on levels of kinks and if it should be okay to do or not and I'm an extreme player.

But often the media takes a situation and calls it BDSM when it's not. Many times we are put in the news in situations (like the Kansas killer etc). The media attempts to dictate at times what is BDSM and this is why I believe the NCSF is needed, but only to a point

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

Post #: 34

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 11:40:58 AM

MasterMagnus321

Posts: 86
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline

Some folks have mental difficulties, lose their sense of self under the manipulative control of evil people, or are simply a few bricks short of a full load, as it were... now how can people with challenges such as these even BE aware, OR consent?!?!?! What a discussion- I can't wait to read more of the posts here as they appear. It seems to beg the question- what IS normal, and what IS sane?

_____________________________

Nothing lasts, and yet nothing passes, either.
And nothing passes just because nothing lasts.
-Philip Roth

~MASTERMAGNUS

(in reply to TexasTop)

Post #: 35

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 11:53:05 AM

gooddogbenji

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMagnus321

Some folks have mental difficulties, lose their sense of self under the manipulative control of evil people, or are simply a few bricks short of a full load, as it were... now how can people with challenges such as these even BE aware, OR consent?!?!?! What a discussion- I can't wait to read more of the posts here as they appear. It seems to beg the question- what IS normal, and what IS sane?

Again, who should make that judgement call?

Some call them evil people, I call them agents of evolution. You don't wanna learn? Okay........

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to MasterMagnus321)

Post #: 36

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 11:55:48 AM

sweetNsmartBBW

Posts: 167
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline

I admit that RACK is a relatively new concept to me....having spent most of the last 10 years exploring things under the realm of SSC. I think, though, that I tend to wonder about it along the same terms as MasterMagnus321 does:

Just because someone 'agrees' to something does not necessarily mean that the person consenting is of sound mind. If not, can they truly consent? While I hate to sound like a spoilsport, I strongly suspect that if I were acquainted with a cannibal Dom, and knew He'd found a 'willing' partner (or should that be victim?)- I'd intervene. After all...not like the submissive is going to have much chance to change their mind, is there?

I really don't know where to draw the line. But, yeah...I guess I do believe there are times when a line NEEDS to be drawn. It's a difficult thing, though- when does protecting the innocent, or the mentally incompetent become an infringement on individual rights? And I'm not even talking legalities here...just every day stuff...

Great question....lots to think about. Thanks!

(in reply to MasterMagnus321)

Post #: 37

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 12:31:20 PM

Lewcifer

Posts: 126
Joined: 5/22/2007
Status: offline

RACK crosses the line when it leads to death, permanent injury or dismemberment.

One should generally try and avoid those things whenever possible.

_____________________________

I am fortunate... My wife is also My friend, lover and slave.

(in reply to TexasTop)

Post #: 38

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 12:35:49 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

The bottom line with RACK, SSC or anything similar is that they are risk assessment processes, which do not demand a specific outcome. That outcome is based upon individual interpretation of the information gleaned from the risk assessment process. In other words, it still takes common sense, a sense of reality, etc. in order to use that information in a meaningful way.

And frankly, some (many?) people are idiots, wholly incapable of making decisions even with the information available to them. That's the nature of freedom of choice... people are free to make "bad" choices (and they do, LORD do they ever).

Having said that, and keeping in mind that there is an element of tolerance when it comes to people's kinks, we must balance that with the reality that not all things are tolerable. If someone's kink is to engage in illegal activities with minors, I sure as hell will not show any tolerance of it. And while, in general, I agree with Archer that we should vote with our feet and not associate with people who are unsafe, unethical, etc... there are also times when that's not enough. It's not enough to simply walk away from something that may be happening to a child, for instance. That demands action.

Now I'm not suggesting that everyone run out there to become a BDSM policeman. We don't need the wild, wild west out there. But everyone has to draw that line somewhere, when walking away is insufficient and action needs to be taken.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to TexasTop)

Post #: 39

RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 12:40:39 PM

gooddogbenji

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline

But a brand is a permanent injury to some degree.

Besides, what of emotional damages?

I would say that is a good line for my own personal boundaries though.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to Lewcifer)

Post #: 40

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