When does RACK cross the line?

When does RACK cross the line? (Full Version)

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TexasTop -> When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 8:47:59 AM)
At what point does something purported to be RACK cross the line? Meaning, when do we (as BDSM folk) hear of something or see something and immediately in our minds think "that's just unhealthy, unsafe, and wrong." Do you think to yourself "that ain't right" and not say anything for fear of being called a hypocrite for not accepting someone's idea of kink? An example would be the 3 men sentenced in the dungeon castration case back in March 2007. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2956940&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312 Another would be the German cannibal who found a willing victim over the Internet.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cannibal Both cases had consensual parties, but does that make it ok? What about those folk who willingly mutilate their bodies beyond repair? I'm NOT talking about basic body modification like piercing, cuttings, branding, or suspensions. I mean things like castration, flaying the penis, self-genital mutilation, vaginal-to-anal hooks etc. Are those things "kink" or are they indicative of something deeper, something wrong with the person? If asked, they would most likely say "We practiced RACK." Would we let them hide behind that? I believe in RACK, and practice it myself.....but I also believe there to be a line, and those extreme examples above....well, they cross it in my opinion.

Archer -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 8:54:51 AM)
The trick is we all have drawn our own lines and we vote through association. Those folks who practice SM in a manner "I feel" is unsafe, unethical, un whatever I simply avoid. I don't make a huge deal of it I simply vote with my feet and don't invite them to my home, don't attend their functions, don't watch their scenes etc. I expect there are folks ho feel the same way about some of the things I do in SM.

daddysprop247 -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 8:55:54 AM)
first, i don't believe in RACK, or SSC or any other politically correct acronym. as far as the lifestyle (whether D/s or BDSM) goes, i believe in consent, and that if all parties involved are consenting, then it is not the business of any outsider to interfere or slander. in the case of slavery, where many believe a slave's consent is given once and only once, then whatever befalls said slave according to the Master's will is his right, after the slave has made that final choice. imo the "line" would be crossed when there is no consent and has never been any consent.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 8:57:25 AM)
I think there are some things which are wrong, and whether it's kinky or not makes no difference to me, no matter who is doing it or how informed they are. But I won't necessarily stop them from doing it or suggest that because I think it's wrong means that THEY need to agree wtih me.

Alumbrado -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 8:57:42 AM)
If RACK means anything that consenting aware adults agree to, then what line exactly is there to cross?

Grlwithboy -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 9:09:11 AM)
I know that people killing and eating one another over some kind of sex trip goes outside the bounds of what I consider my sexuality and I'm against anyone who would use my sexuality to justify this. I have very few hard and fast standards, but the relativism stops somewhere.

Lewcifer -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 9:10:26 AM)
I'm reading a lot of assumptions here, and very little substantive fact. Before people start commenting on RACK (Risk Aware Consensual Kink), it might help if they take a moment to educate themselves on same. Then instead of mostly conjecture and speculation, W/we can actually have a substantive discussion.

fairerthanshe -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 9:11:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross I think there are some things which are wrong, and whether it's kinky or not makes no difference to me, no matter who is doing it or how informed they are. But I won't necessarily stop them from doing it or suggest that because I think it's wrong means that THEY need to agree wtih me. It's not the first time nor will it be the last I have said this...yeah, what LA said. I believe in personal responsibility and consent. If you consent then take responsibility for your actions no matter whether your topping or bottoming. well wishes ~ fairer

MasterFireMaam -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 9:20:35 AM)
If we start outlawing things that we think "ain't right", are we still practicing RACK? Seems then we're then practicing SSC, which demands a judgement call. All RACK demands is consent. It's when you make a personal judgement call that you'll have people disagree where to draw the line (this is why we fight over legislated morality all the time). I have no problems with most of the severe body mods you mentioned. I tend to lean towards allowing the more extreme things, with consent. But then, I feel a person has the right to die, in whatever form they choose, too. But, for RACK to truly work as a legislative system, we must be sure we are teaching people to say no when they need to (ie we need them to be personally empowered) and to take a no as a no when faced with it. We can't help the victim if they say yes, but then, we can't help the adult victim now, in many places, unless they admit abuse. Master Fire

Alumbrado -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 9:24:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy I know that people killing and eating one another over some kind of sex trip goes outside the bounds of what I consider my sexuality and I'm against anyone who would use my sexuality to justify this. I have very few hard and fast standards, but the relativism stops somewhere. I see that as separate from the OP question. I am squicked as all get out by the thought of cannibalism, castration, forced partisan voting, and several other activities... but I am not going to believe that not one single person on the planet isn't turned on by those very things.... or that they won't find a partner.

LaTigresse -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 9:29:04 AM)
Call me crazy but this is it for me. When I, and the person/s I am with, feel the line has been crossed, it has been crossed. Personally I don't care what or where anyone else's line is. I am fully aware that my line may be mild to some, and extreme to others. What matters, is that I know where it is. Example: The thread about the anal hook, (the nasty sharp pointing peircing one that still has my sphinter clenching). That is wayyyyyy over my line and something I would never do. However, if it works for someone else, it's their shit (maybe literally), not mine. For others water sports may be over their line but it isn't over mine. Someone can tell me that pissing on a person is just sick and wrong and come up with quite a few reasons why I shouldn't do it. I can come up with quite a few reasons why I think that hook thing is sick and wrong to ME. Soooooo, I think you can argue RACK, and the lines thereof, until the cows come home and you're not going to get everyone to agree. The best you could do is get them to agree to disagree and I don't think even that is a safe bet.

Grlwithboy -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 9:32:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy I know that people killing and eating one another over some kind of sex trip goes outside the bounds of what I consider my sexuality and I'm against anyone who would use my sexuality to justify this. I have very few hard and fast standards, but the relativism stops somewhere. I see that as separate from the OP question. I am squicked as all get out by the thought of cannibalism, castration, forced partisan voting, and several other activities... but I am not going to believe that not one single person on the planet isn't turned on by those very things.... or that they won't find a partner. Is that the end of responsibility though? "It turns me on, I like it?" Do you really think that people think death is such a groovy intense trip after the first few sucking stab wounds? Are we absolved from at least asking "and...why the fuck would you want that?"

Lordandmaster -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 9:42:25 AM)
Then you don't believe in RACK. "I believe in RACK but some shit is too extreme for me to condone even if it's consensual" isn't RACK. Maybe it just feels right to say that you believe in RACK because that's what everyone in your scene feels comfortable saying? Maybe it's just like your membership card or whatever, regardless of whether people truly abide by it when they're forced to make a tough decision? quote: ORIGINAL: TexasTop I believe in RACK, and practice it myself.....but I also believe there to be a line, and those extreme examples above....well, they cross it in my opinion.

Alumbrado -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 9:45:17 AM)
Absent a crystal ball, I doubt if anyone can 'knowingly' consent to something in the future that they haven't experienced... particularly something that extreme. But again, my question is not one of witholding judgement... it is about the parameters of RACK.

onestandingstill -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 9:46:52 AM)
For me the line is where the Top has the control, but isn't being careful enough to protect the bottom from permanent injury or damage. I think there's fine lines of consent when it comes to permanent marks, permanent alterations, emotional injury, intentional injury or neglectful injury. Risking long term health over kink in my opinion is crossing the line. I do have tattoos, I do want to do a permanent cutting, I may want to do a branding. I think these sorts of things cross the line, but it's my choice to cross it. I think brutally maiming someone where it will be seen in the vanilla world the person has to live in, causing a permanent injury to someone like nerve damage, paralysis or broken bones, involving any person non-consensually, involving animals or minors even with consent, and wanting or causing death are the things in my heart that cross the line into unacceptable practices in my mind no matter who's doing it. Does that mean I'd treat people involved in those things with less, social respect, or dignity, no. Would I want them as close friends? No because I don't think most of them are emotionally healthy to damage themselves or permit damage on these levels. Would I turn them in? If it was about using people non-consensually, kids or animals you bet. Other than that it's still their choice and their body, and they have the right to do things weather I agree with them or not IMO. suzanne

Grlwithboy -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 9:51:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Absent a crystal ball, I doubt if anyone can 'knowingly' consent to something in the future that they haven't experienced... particularly something that extreme. But again, my question is not one of witholding judgement... it is about the parameters of RACK. Yes. These are hard theoreticals. I wish I had an answer. I don't like coming off as a self-appointed arbiter or safety fetishist, as I'm anything but, I've just found that my boundaries aren't summed up in acronyms very well and I still have a profound desire for people to weigh their responsibility to self and others.

Missokyst -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 9:53:32 AM)
I do think people should be aware of the risks when engaging in bdsm. I am more of a RACK mentality than an SSC mentality because I consider the ramifications of engaging in play. And that includes legal risks involved. Just because someone agrees to something does not make it legal. Let's say someone wants to be castrated. For the "victim", a body part is lost. But if it comes to light the person who did the castrating might be prosecuted. The risk to the first person is loss of a body part, possible urinary problems, blood loss, maybe infection or death. The risk to the second is jail time, guilt, maybe even to become a victim of violence, because you never know how people might react to someone willing to do this. Vigiliantism is alive and well. I do not see RACK as an excuse to do what ever you want without consideration. There is much more involved than mere physical risk. You have to look, and measure mental, emotional, physical and legal risks. Often those risks carry well beyond the momentary physical high. I tend to stress the AWARE part when I choose what I do. Those that are not considering all of it, take their chances and should also accept the risks. Kyst

domiguy -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 10:01:06 AM)
For me anything much beyond a D cup.

gooddogbenji -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 10:04:46 AM)
I wanna do it, I will. Anyone who has a problem with what I want to do will in no way be forced to take me on as a slave. In the same way, whatever you want to do, go for it. And if a third party does something you feel is wrong, just remember that that's how a God-fearing Catholic feels when they walk into a bar. God knows we want them telling us what we can't do. Yours, benji

Alumbrado -> RE: When does RACK cross the line? (7/19/2007 10:06:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji just remember that that's how a God-fearing Catholic feels when they walk into a bar. Late for happy hour? [:D]

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