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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 1:20:23 PM   
Lewcifer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji
But a brand is a permanent injury to some degree.


To what degree, and using which standard of measure?



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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 1:40:21 PM   
onestandingstill


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spiral23

i agree with personnal responsibilty..and i have no problem with informed healthy people engaging in extreme acts...even if its way more extreme than what i would go to....

the worry comes about if someone who is emotionly damaged..that though they may say yes...and be involved with the planning of the act...but they are in fact running on self destructive of self abusive impulses that are not even remotely healthy...this may even be on a sub concious level...if that is the case..is it truly consensual?...

Very good point.
I agree with that fully.


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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 1:52:25 PM   
Celeste43


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From: NYS
Status: offline 		Well, personally I think anyone who agreed to castration, being killed and eaten, being given peritonitis by piercing the bowel wall etc is mentally ill. And I absolutely am sure that someone suffering from an untreated mental illness is not capable of giving informed consent. So it isn't SSC or RACK because they require that consent be given by someone capable of understanding what they are doing.

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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 2:03:49 PM   
Lewcifer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43
Well, personally I think anyone who agreed to castration, being killed and eaten, being given peritonitis by piercing the bowel wall etc is mentally ill.


What about those who fear the wrath of an imaginary diety if they don't behave themselves here on earth... would you consider them mentally ill also?


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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 9:24:06 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lewcifer

What about those who fear the wrath of an imaginary diety if they don't behave themselves here on earth... would you consider them mentally ill also?



Thats where I draw the line with RACK.

Spankings from imaginary dieties because I was a bad boy.



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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 9:38:44 PM   
gooddogbenji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43
And I absolutely am sure that someone suffering from an untreated mental illness is not capable of giving informed consent.


I have ADHD, am OCD, and probably have some more shit kicking around...  Does that mean if I sleep with someone I got raped?

Seriously, writing someone off as incapable of consenting because their fetish is more extreme than yours is silly.  Ask around how many active and sensible individuals in this lifestyle have depression, addictive personalities (Can't say no either) have gone through abuse and similar, and can consent just fine.

If you can sign to buy a car, you can agree to have kinky sex.

Yours,


benji

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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 9:55:02 PM   
gooddogbenji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lewcifer
quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji
But a brand is a permanent injury to some degree.

To what degree, and using which standard of measure?


To a small degree, if you define an injury as "Damage or harm done to or suffered by a person or thing"

Or no?

You make it so cut and dry.....

Yours,


benji

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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 9:59:16 PM   
DarkDreams123


Posts: 74
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		I appreciate the interesting debate! Good question OP.

I am on the side of those who are saying that there is a line somewhere. In order to have a healthy society, there has to be a line between personal freedom and personal responsibility. You simply can't just take the completely selfish point of view of what you want to do all of the time: at some point there has to be some consideration for the good of society as a whole.

You know, with all we have to complain about, we really have it pretty good. We really have figured out this living together stuff pretty well.

Democracy and majority rule works rather OK, by and large.

-DarkDreams

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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 10:01:20 PM   
nyrisa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lewcifer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43
Well, personally I think anyone who agreed to castration, being killed and eaten, being given peritonitis by piercing the bowel wall etc is mentally ill.


What about those who fear the wrath of an imaginary diety if they don't behave themselves here on earth... would you consider them mentally ill also?




Ummmmm....... what the heck has that got to do with anything? Whether they believe that or not is not likely to do the physical damage as the acts Celeste mentioned. In an argument about apples and oranges, seems like you just introduced thumbtacks.


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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 10:17:06 PM   
Lewcifer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji
If you can sign to buy a car, you can agree to have kinky sex.


Get this put on a t-shirt, and I'll buy it from Y/you !!!

What an EXCELLENT slogan!


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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 11:02:27 PM   
LadyHeart


Posts: 561
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Status: offline 		Let's say we argued this thread for a few more pages and finally reached a consensus (yeah, right!) would the standards we agreed upon still hold good in 50 years time? Would those standards have been acceptable 50 years ago? Or in a Muslim country? Or amongst the tribesmen from Papua New Guinea? Answer: No.

Everyone seems to want a Book of Rules. Wait - we have the Bible. And we all agree on the interpretation of that, don't we....? More hollow laughter.

Debate it by all means. We need to. But to expect agreement - now THAT's not sane!

:))
LH

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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/19/2007 11:49:32 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fairerthanshe
I would love to see more creativity, more edge play, more risk taken in the public venues so that everyone can be exposed to it, see it and in some way understand it better. 


Which is fine, but there are also folks who appreciate not being exposed to the potential risk of being at (or hosting) a play party where the police or the paramedics are called to the scene.  So every play party host and attendee needs to make their own decision as to the level of risk they consent to take.   If you want to host an edge play party and are willing to take the risks, by all means do so.  I will ask politely that you do your best not to wind up on the evening news, but I don't have the right to say what the rules should be at your play party if you want to host one that is more edgy.

I do however have the right to say what degree of risk I am personally comfortable with, and letting random play party attendees engage in potentially risky edge play on my premises would be a bit much for me personally.  If I knew everyone and trusted their level of experience it would be a different story, but that's hard to achieve at an open play party.

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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/20/2007 5:36:00 AM   
sadomasokisti


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From: Iceland
Status: offline 		There is usually a line between personal freedom and personal responsibility... in most societies it's called law.  It varies a lot between cultures.  I do believe that ppl should obey the law while practicing sex and BDSM.  Specially when around others.

The host of a party has all the right to limit play to certain levels in his/her premises.

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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/20/2007 5:40:52 AM   
Celeste43


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From: NYS
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43
And I absolutely am sure that someone suffering from an untreated mental illness is not capable of giving informed consent.


I have ADHD, am OCD, and probably have some more shit kicking around...  Does that mean if I sleep with someone I got raped?

Seriously, writing someone off as incapable of consenting because their fetish is more extreme than yours is silly.  Ask around how many active and sensible individuals in this lifestyle have depression, addictive personalities (Can't say no either) have gone through abuse and similar, and can consent just fine.

If you can sign to buy a car, you can agree to have kinky sex.

Yours,


benji


I'm fourth generation mood disorder myself. Depression, currently in abeyance, some ADD, anxiety disorder. And no I don't consider myself to be unable to make an informed choice.

But my illnesses don't prevent me from running my life, they don't run my life for me. Someone who feels they deserve to be killed because they believe that all the minor mistakes they've done make them a bad person is someone profoundly depressed and unable to make choices based on information. They skew the information processing to coincide with their internal vision, they don't allow new information to change their minds. That makes them imo unable to make an informed choice.

The definition of psychiatric emergency my ex psychiatrist used was "thoughts or plans of hurting yourself or others". Hurting used like we use harm meaning permanent, irreparable damage. Tattoos and branding can be erased to a degree. Cutting off a body part can't.

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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/20/2007 7:24:41 AM   
fairerthanshe


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Joined: 1/18/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43


But my illnesses don't prevent me from running my life, they don't run my life for me. Someone who feels they deserve to be killed because they believe that all the minor mistakes they've done make them a bad person is someone profoundly depressed and unable to make choices based on information. They skew the information processing to coincide with their internal vision, they don't allow new information to change their minds. That makes them imo unable to make an informed choice.


Greetings Celeste,

The situation you describe cannot involve either consent or personal responsibility and therefore is not kinky behavior or participation in a BDSM activity, this person is incapable of either.  The fact is we each need to be responsible about who we choose to include in our lives and our scenes.  The brunt of the responsibility will lie on the shoulders of the person who plays with someone incapable of making the informed decision.

That being said, if two people find each other, one in the mindset you described, who believes they deserve to die and another whose psychosis involves delusions of being the avenging angel put on earth to smite the wicked, and they feed off each others energy to the point of one being severly injured or dead, then that is not kink related in the least.  That is a tragedy, but not one in which the BDSM community is responsible.

To me, the community does a great job of informing and educating for optimum planning and negotiation to ensure the safety and welfare of all parties involved.  But, I do not believe that any one else is responsible for the decisions I have made in regards to activities I have particpated or those who I have chosen to engage in these activities.  That responsibility lies firmly with me and no one else. 

well wishes ~ fairer than she


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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/20/2007 7:34:52 AM   
fairerthanshe


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Joined: 1/18/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings Naja,

I understand exactly what you are saying.  I am not talking about violating the rules the host or hostess has set down at any party. 

Recently, we had a shibari pool party, very small and private, where significant edge play took place.  That was our choice to host and consent to behaviors that would have sent your average DM screaming into the night.  The people we invited were those we trusted and knew.  The event was phenomenal and opened all of us to a greater understanding of breath play and bondage.

We took risks and, had an unfortunate turn of events occurred, we would have taken responsibility.  We would not have expected the BDSM community in Austin to share that responsibility.

well wishes ~ fairer than she

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: fairerthanshe
I would love to see more creativity, more edge play, more risk taken in the public venues so that everyone can be exposed to it, see it and in some way understand it better. 


Which is fine, but there are also folks who appreciate not being exposed to the potential risk of being at (or hosting) a play party where the police or the paramedics are called to the scene.  So every play party host and attendee needs to make their own decision as to the level of risk they consent to take.   If you want to host an edge play party and are willing to take the risks, by all means do so.  I will ask politely that you do your best not to wind up on the evening news, but I don't have the right to say what the rules should be at your play party if you want to host one that is more edgy.

I do however have the right to say what degree of risk I am personally comfortable with, and letting random play party attendees engage in potentially risky edge play on my premises would be a bit much for me personally.  If I knew everyone and trusted their level of experience it would be a different story, but that's hard to achieve at an open play party.



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Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/21/2007 10:17:19 AM   
Najakcharmer


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Joined: 5/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fairerthanshe
We took risks and, had an unfortunate turn of events occurred, we would have taken responsibility.  We would not have expected the BDSM community in Austin to share that responsibility.


May I ask what precautions were taken to prevent repercussions to the greater BDSM community?  Your strategy might be helpful to others if it worked well for you.

I think it falls under the category of unreasonable regulation to state that consenting and competent adults cannot choose their own degree of risk in their own homes.  I also think that it is damn difficult to completely prevent some degree of general fallout if you seriously fuck up while taking those risks in a BDSM context.  Not impossible, but damn difficult, which is why I think it's a good idea for general standards in a BDSM community to be on the order of encouraging caution and consideration, and lots of thought beforehand about how to manage potential mishaps. 

In any workplace where dangerous things get done, there's generally some sort of accident management plan that covers damage control if shit happens.  It might not be a bad idea to apply that in our context as well.  Got any good ideas to share on the subject?

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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/21/2007 10:48:45 AM   
fairerthanshe


Posts: 3035
Joined: 1/18/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings Naja,
quote:


May I ask what precautions were taken to prevent repercussions to the greater BDSM community?  Your strategy might be helpful to others if it worked well for you.


Precautions taken were the acknowledgment between my partner, as the owner of the house, and me, that we were ultimately responsible for any negative outcome with regard to the party.  It was something we discussed early on in the planning stages of the event. 

Whether a person is involved with suspension, fire play, breath play, water play, etc., there are always risks involved.  Having taken the time to educate ourselves, discussed it frequently, and then chosen to engage in a variety of edge play, it is our educated, informed consensual behavior and not the responsibility of any other.

Recently, there was a discussion on one of our local groups about scenes that had gone bad and required a trip to the hospital.  The OP asked for either first hand accounts or eye witness accounts.  We have a rather large and active community in Austin.  There was one story that people kept referencing and that was it.  (The OP had eliminated things like sprained ankles from too high of heels.) He was looking for "scenes gone wrong" that actually resulted in injury requiring medical attention. 

We [Austin groups] do a good job of educating and informing the people around us and that, to me, is the purpose of the community, not to set out guidelines along a RACK assessment, or worse, an arbitrary SSC regulation.  At our public play parties, there are common sets of rules and regulations.  Some groups lighten up on the rules as is their prerogative.   The smaller the group  and the more  the participants know each other  the freer  they can be with  the rules.

well wishes ~ fairer than she


_____________________________

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Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/21/2007 11:37:53 AM   
NOUSE4ANAME


Posts: 2
Joined: 10/20/2004
Status: offline 		hello, and just my two cents....in this vein there seem sto be a lot of "if it ain't my kink ......then it's not ok" sentiments.I personally do not understand many things that others do.But, All I can say is that I  practice safe sane consensual bdsm..I cannot control the actions of others.I do believe though that within the guidelines of ssc almost anything non-life threatening goes..However I still do not believe that everything that is consensual is ok...I shudder reading about "Consensual Castration"I shudder reading about submissives that ask their Masters to actually kill them in breath play.I believe that we as a community do need to "vote with your feet" as I read here earlier...I would not tolerate anyone doing anything that I felt really unsafe around me.I also draw the line by not participating in anything I feel unsafe,unhealthy or life threatening.

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RE: When does RACK cross the line? - 7/21/2007 1:02:43 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fairerthanshe
Precautions taken were the acknowledgment between my partner, as the owner of the house, and me, that we were ultimately responsible for any negative outcome with regard to the party.  It was something we discussed early on in the planning stages of the event. 


I'm still not sure how you could prevent fallout on the community just by deciding you were responsible if a serious injury/death scenario did occur that got police, fire or paramedics involved. 

I was thinking you might have had a more specific damage control plan in place as to what you'd do if there was a problem?  Eg, what would you actually tell the doctors or the police about the cause of the injury, how would that be handled, how would people at the party be notified so that if necessary they could leave the premises before anyone else showed up?

One of the damage control plans I have seen for an unrelated situation involves how a workplace injury would be initially reported to paramedics if emergency transport was requested.  Reporters monitor ambulance frequencies, and you can reliably bet that anything that goes over those channels is going to end up in the news if it's sensational enough.  So the policy is to initially call in a potentially sensational type of workplace injury in a way that still gets the paramedics there on time and fully prepared to deal with the situation, but does not automatically cause reporters to perk up if they are listening.  This policy serves to protect the individual involved in the injury as well as the workplace and the field in general, and it is not applied to any situation without the cooperation of the individual involved in the accident - which has always been the case in every such incident I'm aware of.  Anyhow, that policy works pretty well to help with damage control.

quote:

We [Austin groups] do a good job of educating and informing the people around us and that, to me, is the purpose of the community, not to set out guidelines along a RACK assessment, or worse, an arbitrary SSC regulation.  At our public play parties, there are common sets of rules and regulations.  Some groups lighten up on the rules as is their prerogative.   The smaller the group  and the more  the participants know each other  the freer  they can be with  the rules.


I'm not suggesting you need to do anything different, but I do want to explore the possible consequences of an accident and possible damage control plans that groups or individuals could use in case Shit Happens.  It would be useful to understand that emergency frequencies are in fact monitored by the press, sometimes legally, sometimes not. 

(in reply to fairerthanshe)
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