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RE: Another story that didn't fit the agenda - 7/25/2007 8:28:58 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Well, almost. I would amend it to say that ideology (a system of belief that closes itself off from outside feedback) itself is the enemy. The most dangerous people in the world are those who believe they have a monopoly on the truth.

I disagree. If a bunch of people want to climb into a closet and flagellate themselves insensate worshipping a toilet plunger which will bring about the Time Of The Great Flushing, what the hell do the rest of us care?

If those people want to blow up buildings and kill people to get the Great Plunger to Flush it all, I have a problem with it.

Beliefs dont kill people, they simply motivate people to kill people. Killing people for whatever reason is what I have an issue with.

Sinergy

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RE: Another story that didn't fit the agenda - 7/25/2007 9:32:10 AM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Ha-ha,... are you a Tripp admirer taking insult at being called a rightie,or a republican insulted over being called a Tripp lover? Or both?It`s hard to tell.

None of the above. I am a true independent charting his own course through the political and philosophical maelstrom. I just irks the shit out of me that people assume I must be on the other side because I criticize their side. I can understand how those on the left assume I am on the right because I oppose collectivist schemes as the ideological (and economically nonsensical) tyrannies they are but I also get flak from the right when they discover that I am pro-choice, pro gay marriage, disdainful of organized religion (and that I laugh out loud at silly notions like "Intelligent Design"), etc.

lol,,I didn`t assume a thing.lol

I put out some bait,and you jumped like a hungry fish at it.That was good,thanx.

My comment(it was a joke,get over it) would only insult a republican(or an admirer of Linda Tripp).You wouldn`t have gone postal,if it didn`t affect you.Well Mr.true independent charting his own course ,why all the fuss over what was clearly a joke.jeeeehhhzzzz lol

Peace

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/25/2007 9:35:44 AM >

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Post #: 142

RE: Another story that didn't fit the agenda - 7/25/2007 9:46:54 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Here are a few "regrettable" pictures to scroll through. She doesn't seem to be scolding THEM much. Maybe "peace activists" don't mind so much when you kill Americans?

http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jane_fonda.htm

Nice! I was in the Navy when those pictures were taken.

popeye:
By your own admission you were in the navy a long long long way away from Viet Nam when those pics were taken.
Please wave your bloody shirt somewhere else.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 7/25/2007 10:03:22 AM >

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RE: Another story that didn't fit the agenda - 7/25/2007 9:58:04 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

She was doing the same thing that Obama announced he will do with Cuba, North Korea, and Iran. Attempting to establish a dialogue to try to find some way out of a stupid conflict for all concerned, without violence. (Naturally, Billary said it was a stupid idea. Why establish a dialogue and find a way we can all live together when we can simply bomb them into the stone age...)

Dialogue between who? She wasn’t an official representative of the U.S. government, was she? Her only purpose was to stroke her own ego over what a good person she was. If she actually gave a shit about the Vietnamese people she would have spoken out about the atrocities committed by the North Vietnamese government when it took over the south,
Perhaps you might fill us in on all the atrocities committed by the Viet Namese against whom??? There was no north and south Viet Nam until we made it so.

and about the plight of the boat people.

quote:

As I pointed out, if American bombers are not carpet bombing within range of that anti-aircraft gun, then that anti-aircraft gun will not be capable of inflicting violence.

You’re nitpicking.

quote:

I personally find people who think her sitting on the anti-aircraft gun as endorsing violence to be rather myopic. The point of view I take away from it is an individual, brave enough to speak her mind, supporting the right of a free people to defend themselves against foreign aggression.

Did she ever condemn the North Vietnamese for invading the south?
It is pretty hard to invade oneself.

Also, the north Vietnamese were living under a communist government, therefore they were not free. Freedom and communism are incompatible.
They have free elections ...perhaps your understanding of socialism is flawed?

quote:

I am always amazed by people who think the United States involvement in Vietnam was anything but foreign aggression from the perspective of the Vietnamese.

And that statement applies to me... how?

quote:

Must be the blinders some people wear to avoid being faced with the fact that they are the Bad Guy.

Must be. What does this have to do with me?
I guess because you are the one running your mouth about how bad a person Jane Fonda is....what do you think?

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Post #: 144

RE: Another story that didn't fit the agenda - 7/25/2007 10:08:02 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Who you calling a rightie there, punk!

Mark2b:
"punk" Oh my, that does seem a bit strident.
thompson

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RE: Another story that didn't fit the agenda - 7/25/2007 11:20:59 AM

Alumbrado

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quote:

Isn't ANTI-AIRCRAFT sorta by definition DEFENSIVE in nature?

Not when Chuck Norris gets a hold of them. Otherwise, good point.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/25/2007 11:23:13 AM >

(in reply to farglebargle)

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RE: Another story that didn't fit the agenda - 7/25/2007 8:22:45 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Isn't ANTI-AIRCRAFT sorta by definition DEFENSIVE in nature?

I believe I’ve already said I don’t have a problem with people defending themselves but an anti-aircraft gun is a weapon of war and "peace activist" Jane Fonda clearly didn’t have a problem with that.

quote:

I mean, if the US wasn't immorally and unlawfully supporting Diem, and flying over the NVA airspace to attack, those ANTI-AIRCRAFT guns wouldn't have been fired, would they?

Oh, and the US and Diem in South Vietnam directly disobeyed the UN Mandate to have elections to decide on the government of Vietnam.

Of course, elections which won't go the way the US would like them to go don't count, and can't happen, can they ( Hey, look, there's Hamas! )

See, this is what I don’t get. Are you looking to excuse Jane Fonda’s (what was this thread about?) actions or are you accusing me of supporting these things (or both)? Seriously, I need to know, because I thought I’ve made it clear before that with me condemnation of one does not automatically equal the condoning of something else.

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RE: Another story that didn't fit the agenda - 7/25/2007 8:43:42 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

You might want to do just a weeeeee bit more research on the history of Vietnam.

Meaning what? That the north wasn't communist? That the north didn't invade the south? What?

The story of the film so far.

Sure. After 1967 when it became obvious to the United States public that the Vietnamese did not want the US there, the US and China agreed (in order to not go into active war with each other) to partition the country into two pieces.

We (The US) put those people above the 17th parallel, referred to them as communist scum, reviled them as the Enemy, and eventually called them the North Vietnamese Army (NVA).

We (The US) put these other people here and called them the Republic of Viet Nam (RVN). We set up a puppet government under Diem, referred to it as the popularly elected and Democratic government of the Vietnamese people. Of course, he only retained control as long as the US forces kept him in control.

It was decided that the NVA cannot go south of the 17th Parallel, and agreed that the RVN could not go north of the 17th parallel.

Everybody sat around and said this was a great idea, except, of course, for the Vietnamese who objected to their country being partitioned and some dork (Diem) being set up as a puppet leader. So they marched down the Ho Chi Minh trail (mostly in Kampuchea) and continued their efforts at toppling Diem.

The United States, in response, carpet bombed North Vietnam. The NVA responded by shooting anti-aircraft guns at American bombers.

Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam to consult with the leaders, as a free citizen, and got a photo op on an anti-aircraft gun which people revile her for doing as a communist scum traitor.

Eventually, the US people realized the Vietnamese did not want us there, and Nixon wanted to be re-elected to he listened to the people in the US, betrayed his own party, and pulled the US out of Vietnam.

I dont necessarily agree with what Jane Fonda did, I can see the rationale behind why she did it, etc. I do, however, give thanks and prayers and whatever that I live in a country that is based on the ideals that allow a person like Jane Fonda to do something tremendously unpopular to a large part of the public as well as the Government in power, without fear of being sent to Abu Graibh for her opinions and (non-violent) actions.

People can trash her for what she did all you want, but I prefer to live in a country where even unpopular ideas are, if not agreed with, are at least respected.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

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RE: Another story that didn't fit the agenda - 7/25/2007 8:51:38 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

I disagree. If a bunch of people want to climb into a closet and flagellate themselves insensate worshipping a toilet plunger which will bring about the Time Of The Great Flushing, what the hell do the rest of us care?

For mocking my religion you are hereby condemned to spend eternity in the Septic Tank of the Damned.

quote:

If those people want to blow up buildings and kill people to get the Great Plunger to Flush it all, I have a problem with it.

Beliefs dont kill people, they simply motivate people to kill people. Killing people for whatever reason is what I have an issue with.

Not everybody’s beliefs motivate them to violence, that I will grant. I would in fact go so far as to say that this applies to the vast majority but having beliefs is not the same as believing that you have an monopoly on the truth. The latter is a sub-group of the former. Even if an ideology doesn’t use violence in pursuit of it’s vision, there are other ways than violence to force other people to behave (and possibly, think) the way you think they should. What is politics but a constant battle to manipulate laws and policy to favor a one vision of society or another? But even this merely puts a buffer between the application of force and violence because the power of the state is ultimately the threat of violence (break the laws and men with guns may take you away and lock you up).

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RE: Another story that didn't fit the agenda - 7/25/2007 8:56:19 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

lol,,I didn`t assume a thing.lol

I put out some bait,and you jumped like a hungry fish at it.That was good,thanx.

My comment(it was a joke,get over it) would only insult a republican(or an admirer of Linda Tripp).You wouldn`t have gone postal,if it didn`t affect you.Well Mr.true independent charting his own course ,why all the fuss over what was clearly a joke.jeeeehhhzzzz lol

Relax. If I ever decide to go postal, you’ll hear about it on the evening news. I was the one joking when I called you punk. As for the rest, it was just clarification. Something I seem to have to do a lot on these boards, so I’ve kind of gotten into the habit.

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RE: Another story that didn't fit the agenda - 7/25/2007 9:36:56 PM

Marc2b

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Sure. After 1967 when it became obvious to the United States public that the Vietnamese did not want the US there, the US and China agreed (in order to not go into active war with each other) to partition the country into two pieces.

So we are not the only ones interfering with smaller countries? I’m glad to see at least one other person acknowledge that. It is the A is all good and B is all bad mentality that irks the shit out of me.

quote:

We (The US) put those people above the 17th parallel, referred to them as communist scum, reviled them as the Enemy, and eventually called them the North Vietnamese Army (NVA).

I’m sure they had some none to flattering names for us, too. Dehumanizing the enemy is the first necessary step.

quote:

We (The US) put these other people here and called them the Republic of Viet Nam (RVN). We set up a puppet government under Diem, referred to it as the popularly elected and Democratic government of the Vietnamese people. Of course, he only retained control as long as the US forces kept him in control.

I wonder how long the North Vietnamese government would have stayed in power without China’s assistance. Seriously, I wonder. I also wonder why other people don’t wonder.

quote:

It was decided that the NVA cannot go south of the 17th Parallel, and agreed that the RVN could not go north of the 17th parallel.

Everybody sat around and said this was a great idea, except, of course, for the Vietnamese who objected to their country being partitioned and some dork (Diem) being set up as a puppet leader. So they marched down the Ho Chi Minh trail (mostly in Kampuchea) and continued their efforts at toppling Diem.

So there were two separate countries, the north and the south, and the north not only invaded the south, they invaded Cambodia as well.

quote:

The United States, in response, carpet bombed North Vietnam. The NVA responded by shooting anti-aircraft guns at American bombers.

Yup, that’ll happen. When people shoot at other people, the other people often shoot back.

quote:

Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam to consult with the leaders, as a free citizen, and got a photo op on an anti-aircraft gun...

Photo-op being the operative word here.

quote:

...which people revile her for doing as a communist scum traitor.

Some people. Other people hail her as a hero. Other people have still different opinions. My opinion? She’s a self-serving twat whose only concern for the Vietnamese people was that they were a useful platform for an ego stroke.

quote:

Eventually, the US people realized the Vietnamese did not want us there, and Nixon wanted to be re-elected to he listened to the people in the US, betrayed his own party, and pulled the US out of Vietnam.

I don’t know how many Vietnamese did or did not want us there. Certainly some of them weren’t happy to see us go since they did everything they could to get the fuck out when the communists took over. But that’s not really relevant to the discussion (or is it?).

quote:

I dont necessarily agree with what Jane Fonda did, I can see the rationale behind why she did it, etc. I do, however, give thanks and prayers and whatever that I live in a country that is based on the ideals that allow a person like Jane Fonda to do something tremendously unpopular to a large part of the public as well as the Government in power, without fear of being sent to Abu Graibh for her opinions and (non-violent) actions.

On this we are in complete agreement.

quote:

People can trash her for what she did all you want, but I prefer to live in a country where even unpopular ideas are, if not agreed with, are at least respected.

And again. The problem, however, is that most people (or so it seems to me) don’t respect other peoples rights to their opinions. This includes the right to trash Jane Fonda for the constitution that protects her right to speak her mind also protects my right to ridicule her mercilessly.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 7/25/2007 9:38:51 PM >

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RE: Another story that didn't fit the agenda - 7/25/2007 10:22:08 PM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

lol,,I didn`t assume a thing.lol

I put out some bait,and you jumped like a hungry fish at it.That was good,thanx.

My comment(it was a joke,get over it) would only insult a republican(or an admirer of Linda Tripp).You wouldn`t have gone postal,if it didn`t affect you.Well Mr.true independent charting his own course ,why all the fuss over what was clearly a joke.jeeeehhhzzzz lol

Relax. If I ever decide to go postal, you’ll hear about it on the evening news. I was the one joking when I called you punk. As for the rest, it was just clarification. Something I seem to have to do a lot on these boards, so I’ve kind of gotten into the habit.