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RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 1:10:51 AM

Caius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abytchgoddess4u

I agree with you, I don't think I suffer from white guilt. Particularly so b/c I'm Canadian and we have very little history of slavery. The racism we have historically perpetrated has been against Natives and I have no issue playing with them. In addition, my background is Irish and Jewish, so my ancestors have been victims of the same thing.

I don't know exactly where I'm still hung up...which is why I asked for help.

~nods~ Well, in that event, I would still say you've already got about the best advice you are likely to get on the issue here -- just take the plunge. ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abytchgoddess4u

As I mentioned, the work I did was back in university, around 14-15yrs ago. And I think; if anything, that has given me a greater perception and understanding of slavery, which is where this is originating. After all, true slavery is STILL widespread in our world and most of us don't acknowledge it...let alone give a damn or make any effort to either educate ourselves and others, or speak out against it.

True. When you put it that way, there's little to argue about. There was jsut something in the way you first phrased the scenario that struck me as prententious, in that I thought your focus was on trying to reform deeply entrenched habits in racists. But if you're talking about informing people about the historical (and ongoing) context of slavery and racism that is very admirable work and I apologize for my knee-jerk reaction.

(in reply to abytchgoddess4u)

Post #: 21

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 1:39:22 AM

FullfigRIMaam

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quote:

I have a psychological boundary to playing with black subs.

Back when I dated vanilla...'lo those many years ago, I used to love dating black men. They treated me well, were respectful, etc...all the good stuff.

When I finally decided not to date 'nilla anymore, I didn't live in a place with a large black population and didn't for a number of years, so I didn't even realise this was an issue. Now that I'm in a much more diverse city, I have more opportunity to meet(and be attracted to) black men. In fact, I've been approached by a number of them in a D/s context...and turned them down.

I just can't seem to get past the historical implications of slavery

I had the very same psychological boundary, and kind of threw back a couple of potentials initially for that same reason. Than I realized that what we do is entirely about consent between adults, and my approach to these types of relationships are no different than vanilla, in that it comes from a loving place and my need to connect to special people in my life, so I got over myself, and changed my thinking.
I hope that is helpful. M

_____________________________

"touching was and still is and will always be the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni
"Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence." Erich Fromm

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Post #: 22

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 8:20:26 AM

LATEXBABY64

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I look at things in a very simple way. sure it is consent until you do something they do not like then its rasism. the world can be a very bi polar place for sure... I guess the best lesson here is do what makes your feel comfortable. do not let people make you feel less because your not ready to approche a black submissive . I do not see a lot of them in the
fetish relm of things. I do see a lot of contradiction among them in this lifestyle. so in simple terms do what you feel is best for you and what everyone else thinks can move on down the road. It is Your life not anyone elses

People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of their character. Ralph Waldo Emerson

(in reply to FullfigRIMaam)

Post #: 23

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 12:13:42 PM

abytchgoddess4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caius
~nods~ Well, in that event, I would still say you've already got about the best advice you are likely to get on the issue here -- just take the plunge. ;)

I think you're right...but it's got to be deconstructed on a personal level first. Now to find me a potential prospect... ~mwahahaha~

quote:

True. When you put it that way, there's little to argue about. There was just something in the way you first phrased the scenario that struck me as prententious, in that I thought your focus was on trying to reform deeply entrenched habits in racists. But if you're talking about informing people about the historical (and ongoing) context of slavery and racism that is very admirable work and I apologize for my knee-jerk reaction.

I'm sorry I didn't give you something to argue about...it was unintentional.

That was part of it, and my desire for involvement came from my burgeoning awareness of my own privilege...which has continued to this day. It's a constant journey, this life of ours.

In fact, since this has come up in a public forum...I highly recommend everyone interested in recognising the widespread affects of white privilege read, "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack", by Peggy MacIntosh...as a start. It's as relevant today as it was when it was written, 19yrs ago.

http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

< Message edited by abytchgoddess4u -- 7/21/2007 12:15:10 PM >

_____________________________

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Ask all from yourself." Rumi

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(in reply to Caius)

Post #: 24

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 12:18:21 PM

abytchgoddess4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64
I look at things in a very simple way. sure it is consent until you do something they do not like then its rasism. the world can be a very bi polar place for sure... I guess the best lesson here is do what makes your feel comfortable. do not let people make you feel less because your not ready to approche a black submissive . I do not see a lot of them in the fetish relm of things. I do see a lot of contradiction among them in this lifestyle. so in simple terms do what you feel is best for you and what everyone else thinks can move on down the road. It is Your life not anyone elses

What exactly do you mean by 'a lot of contradiction among them'? And how exactly is 'it consent until you do something they don't like, then it's racism'?

I'm confused.

_____________________________

"Everything in the Universe Is within you.
Ask all from yourself." Rumi

"The world will know and understand me someday. But if that day does not arrive, it does not greatly matter. I shall have opened the way for other women."
George Sand

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)

Post #: 25

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 12:36:36 PM

PairOfDimes

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Would it help to think that imposing your idea that black men oughtn't to be hit because their skin color and facial features indicate that their ancestors may have suffered slavery and colonialism is an act of racial essentialism, and thus just as ill-thought as traditional racist ideas? I'm generally in favor of gender-blindness, race-blindness, etc., so I think it's a good idea anyway, but if adopting that ideology helps you get through this guilt and have happier relationships, all the better.

(Although, I can see that playing on racial anxieties could be mentally exciting, just like playing on any actually-existing anxiety makes mental sadism a bit spicier...so perhaps that's a counterargument to absolute color blindness.)

Now, if you become okay with the idea of hitting black men, but you're just not attracted to black men as potential submissives or bottoms, that's okay, too. You're allowed to not be attracted to doing certain things with certain people, even if those categories of people to whom you're not attracted are categories that you would want to take care to not discriminate against as an employer. After all, gay men are allowed to not think women are hot, without being accused of horrible misogyny or male chauvinism.

And yes, American enslavement of Africans and their descendants was historically aberrant. I'm not crazy about using the word "slavery," to describe consensual inequal relationships in the U.S., Canada, Commonwealth, etc., not really because it trivializes the bad things that have happened and continue to happen, nor because legal slavery is never consensual (it has been before!) but because slavery is a legal term, and the thing we do involves private relationship authority, not public legal status. But that's another thread.

(in reply to abytchgoddess4u)

Post #: 26

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 4:05:49 PM

Caius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PairOfDimes

And yes, American enslavement of Africans and their descendants was historically aberrant.

...

quote:

ORIGINAL: PairOfDimes

...nor because legal slavery is never consensual (it has been before!)

When and where? If by consensual you mean they could choose to become slaves, I don't think that would be a problem for most slavers; "You want a live of unimaginable agony and the complete and utter destruction of every last shred of dignity and hope possessed by you, your loved ones and your descendents, if you're allowed any? Well....alright then, form a queue!" If by consensual you mean they could choose to leave that role, I know of no historical precedent for such. First off, talk of "legal" slavery is irrelevant to most of the history of slavery. There were rarely laws -- and in the cases there were, it was typically religious, not secular, law -- specifically condoning it; it was simply a granted that some people were slaves. There were occasionally laws governing the trade of slaves -- and very, very rarely their treatment -- as you can expect in any kind of business that attracts the attention of the powerful, but it wasn't until the last few centuries that the world saw its first wide-scale laws explicitly banning slavery. So I think a more apt term would be institutional slavery. And once again, this was never consensual in the sense that a person could both enter into and leave the arrangement at will. If you've any concrete examples to the contrary, I'd love to see them -- no sarcasm intended here, I really would be quite interested in such information. But even if such a situation existed -- that is to say, a society-wide instituion in which person were fucntionally slaves but could "opt-out" -- it would still lack a fundamental aspect of actual slavery, the theft of self-determination.

This whole train of thought vaguely reminds me of Monty Pyhton's "Life of Brain":

Roman Gaoler: Crucifixion?
Jewish Prisoner: Er, no, freedom actually.
Gaoler: What?
Prisoner: Yeah, they said I hadn't done anything and I could go and live on an island somewhere.
Gaoler: Oh I say, that's very nice. Well, off you go then.
Prisoner: No, I'm just pulling your leg, it's crucifixion really.
Gaoler: [laughing] Oh yes, very good. Well...
Prisoner: Yes I know, out of the door, one cross each, line on the left.

< Message edited by Caius -- 7/21/2007 4:17:46 PM >

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Post #: 27

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 4:49:43 PM

Politesub53

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Caius, What did the Romans ever do for us ?

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Post #: 28

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 4:52:10 PM

fairerthanshe

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The Aqueduct?

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Post #: 29

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 5:13:13 PM

Grlwithboy

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I think for me it really boiled down to communicating with another player who had a race play fetish about his feelings and needs and interests. Not every fetishist just blithely uses other people to get off, and this guy really was able to articulate his needs in a way that made me understand the contradictory ways people might relate to the racism they experience, and that he was very together and very "ok." It's not completely different from a female submissive who desires treatment in a stereotypical or pseudo "abusive" style based on her gender. While it's not everyone's cup of tea, I think the people who might want to hear "you're a slut and you deserved it" know well that they're not and they don't/didn't but want to "go there" for their own purposes, and I think that's OK, whether I want to be the one to "go there" with them is another thing.

Then there are simply subs of color who just want to play with me 'cause we hit it off and they're cool and I'm cool, and we happen to come in different shades. I'm much more comfortable with this second scenario, they're just people who want an experience and I've negotiated and gotten to know them and trust their reasons for wanting that experience - my mind doesn't really snap back to the political ramifications unless that's exactly what we're interested in playing around with.

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

Post #: 30

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 5:17:52 PM

Petronius

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I've much the same "problem" as abytchgoddess4u, although I've never particularly worried about it as much.

Three things have popped up when I spoke to others on this topic.

The first was Woody Allen's observation that "the heart wants what the heart wants." Reality, present and past, is one thing; subjective emotional desire is another.

The second was the notion of play and how we can sometimes get jammed up on it. A friend of mine always jokes about the reality/play dichotomy: "I was never into violence, not even as a child. When the other kids played Cowboys and Indians I was always the Chinese railroad worker."

The third was "why is it a problem." It is not written that one must play in those areas. If you're uncomfortable with the play you don't have to tackle the uncomfortably; you can simply decide not to play.

(in reply to Caius)

Post #: 31

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 7:08:18 PM

thetammyjo

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New World slavery was based on two things almost unheard of in other and earlier types of slavery.

The first was it's overwhelming economic basis. In most of the world and throughout most of history slave owning itself was a status symbol, a sign of wealth or civic right. Any economic gain was secondary for most slave owners though there were "industries" and farms where slaves were fundamental. Often that was consider a bit vulgar at least in the eyes of those who left behind evidence.

The second difference is who is enslaved. New World slavery became focused on issues of race while most slavery in the rest of the world is not about what you look like or where you are from but simply a matter of law, social relationships, or birth. This racial component was emphasized in much of the law and in the writings of slave owners -- not the case at all for most of the world.

America slavery was decent compared to slavery southward in places like the Caribbean and Brazil.

If you haven't read Orlando Patterson's comparative studies about slavery, I highly recommend it to any one. His work was the basic text for a comparative slavery class I took and it has always been very good for later classes about slaves in specific cultures, times, or places that I've taken in later years.

What I do is in no way related to nor resembles historical or institutional slavery but I understand that it is a very "hot" word to many people (including me) so I use the above historical and institutional labels to show the difference.

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(in reply to Caius)

Post #: 32

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 7:31:05 PM

PrincessinLatex

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***Off topic alert

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

America slavery was decent compared to slavery southward in places like the Caribbean and Brazil.

I'm sure you didn't mean any offense by this. . . but slavery in America was pretty fucking bad. Maybe it wasn't the *worst* case scenario. . . .but I don't think that the word "decent" and "American slavery" really belong in the same sentence. That is kinda like saying: "Sally's rape was mild compared to Peggy's because Peggy got fucked up the ass and Sally was only fucked in the puss."

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Post #: 33

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 7:52:50 PM

Caius

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Joined: 2/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

New World slavery was based on two things almost unheard of in other and earlier types of slavery.

The first was it's overwhelming economic basis. In most of the world and throughout most of history slave owning itself was a status symbol, a sign of wealth or civic right. Any economic gain was secondary for most slave owners though there were "industries" and farms where slaves were fundamental. Often that was consider a bit vulgar at least in the eyes of those who left behind evidence.

The second difference is who is enslaved. New World slavery became focused on issues of race while most slavery in the rest of the world is not about what you look like or where you are from but simply a matter of law, social relationships, or birth. This racial component was emphasized in much of the law and in the writings of slave owners -- not the case at all for most of the world.

This is somewhat anachronistic. While I agree that it is the economic component that can be said to, more than anyhting else, establish how slaves are regarded and treated, it is absolutely untrue that such conditions failed to prevail for cultures prior to "New World" colonization. Look above and you will see a small list of cultures that employed slaves in exactly the type of industries you descibe -- a marginal list indeed compared to all of the powers in history who have made liberal use of slaves in their economies (primarily in exactly the kind of agricultural function that American plantations used them in). Likewise, while you are correct that the systems used by European colonial powers in the Americas and elsewhere were highly racialized, this too was not without precedent (many other cultures formerly based systems of slavery upon phenotype), though I will grant that modern systems exhibit more of these race-based features.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

America slavery was decent compared to slavery southward in places like the Caribbean and Brazil.

True. Now historically, THESE examples really do rise to the level of being some of the worst conditions for slaves in the history of the world. Untold thousands of slaves laboured in Spanish silver mines in these areas alone, and were worked pitiously until death because the value of quicly-extracted product was higher than the cost of purchasing new slaves. Both Africans and indigenous peoples were swallowed up into these mines in staggering numbers. But while they worked on a prodigious scale, slaves had been employed in this line of work for millenia -- mining being one of the most risky kinds of work in existence (and, even when one is lucky enough to avoid direct disaster, mining for an extended period of time without modern equipment almost always leads to death from health complications, to say nothing of how absolutely brutal the work is without said equipment).

< Message edited by Caius -- 7/21/2007 7:59:43 PM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 8:04:43 PM

Caius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessinLatex

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

America slavery was decent compared to slavery southward in places like the Caribbean and Brazil.

I'm sure you didn't mean any offense by this. . . but slavery in America was pretty fucking bad. Maybe it wasn't the *worst* case scenario. . . .but I don't think that the word "decent" and "American slavery" really belong in the same sentence. That is kinda like saying: "Sally's rape was mild compared to Peggy's because Peggy got fucked up the ass and Sally was only fucked in the puss."

I think she only meant to imply that slaves historically have been treated in a fashion that is consistent with the market forces influecing the work to which they were put. I see nothing particularly offensive in trying to understand the circumstances that bring such an evil -- especially as many of us here, I presume, want to believe that authoritative structures can exist without abuse. To extend upon your metaphor, we may not subjectively consider Sally's rape worse than Peggy's, but if you're the physician treating either of these women, you're going to need to know the details (and can't avoid noting them anyway).

quote:

ORIGINAL: fairerthanshe
The Aqueduct?

Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah.

< Message edited by Caius -- 7/21/2007 8:46:09 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 8:11:42 PM

BBBTBW

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Honestly, it is very very simple. Just stop looking at skin color and look at the quality of the person. If he is a quality person and has all that you want....his skin color should not be an issue at all. If you like him, and you find him attractive, beat his ass like a dirty rug and enjoy every minute of it. Even a black ass turns red if its beat enough

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Post #: 36

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 9:30:51 PM

Grlwithboy

Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessinLatex

***Off topic alert

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

America slavery was decent compared to slavery southward in places like the Caribbean and Brazil.

I'm sure you didn't mean any offense by this. . . but slavery in America was pretty fucking bad. Maybe it wasn't the *worst* case scenario. . . .but I don't think that the word "decent" and "American slavery" really belong in the same sentence. That is kinda like saying: "Sally's rape was mild compared to Peggy's because Peggy got fucked up the ass and Sally was only fucked in the puss."

Yes. Also apparently if you were of mixed descent in Latin America you were free. I'm not certain if this was region by region or how much black or indigenous ancestry meant someone was a slave, but it's the US where someone like Dred Scott could possibly even have been a slave, and with "one drop of blood" racial constructs which kept more people in slavery.

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 7/21/2007 9:32:51 PM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/21/2007 10:40:33 PM

Caius

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Joined: 2/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessinLatex

***Off topic alert

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

America slavery was decent compared to slavery southward in places like the Caribbean and Brazil.

I'm sure you didn't mean any offense by this. . . but slavery in America was pretty fucking bad. Maybe it wasn't the *worst* case scenario. . . .but I don't think that the word "decent" and "American slavery" really belong in the same sentence. That is kinda like saying: "Sally's rape was mild compared to Peggy's because Peggy got fucked up the ass and Sally was only fucked in the puss."

Yes. Also apparently if you were of mixed descent in Latin America you were free. I'm not certain if this was region by region or how much black or indigenous ancestry meant someone was a slave, but it's the US where someone like Dred Scott could possibly even have been a slave, and with "one drop of blood" racial constructs which kept more people in slavery.

Actually, yes, it did vary from region to region to some small degree, but for almost all of it, the Spanish (and to a lesser extent the French, Portuguese, British, and even the Dutch) were equal-opportunity exploiters of both Africans and indigneous peoples, and treated these slaves in a largely disposable fashion, rarely conceding that any of these persons deserved freedom. Indigneous peoples got off no easier anywhere in the Americas than did those slaves imported there.

< Message edited by Caius -- 7/21/2007 11:01:10 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/22/2007 4:18:13 AM

mons

Posts: 2400
Joined: 11/16/2005
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greetings

i have that problem but mine is the opposite i can not beat or any type of d/s with anyblack males. I am a black woman and i just do not find then attracive sexual at all , and if i did i think i would hurt one. i have issue with black men. not a good childhood not treated well. i was beaten and raped so i just can not do it not becasue of race or slavery or the thought of slavery. it the seuxal part i can not get past. i had one male who wanted me to became his mistress. i was about to do this when my twin told me you do not even like them why do this ? i change my mind and fast i understand the slaver part as well. when i am with someone it does pass my mind how they were treated but then i know it is so different. try and remember this one thiing you will not make him work in the flies night and day nor would mistreat him in the way we know they were. i wish you luck

mons

(in reply to abytchgoddess4u)

Post #: 39

RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? - 7/22/2007 4:31:43 AM

mons

Posts: 2400
Joined: 11/16/2005
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greetings

tammyjo how many books have you read on the american life pf slavery ? you have said the wildest thing i have ever heard (amercian slavery was decent) one story one old man was left to sit and ate as he sit by maggots decent oh yes so cool and woman who had babies after baby until their utuers fell out they die of either infection or heart broken for the childern she had taken from her. the lighter slave had i the worst the mistress who husband had sslept with the slave woman or girl . each time the wife would look at the childer she would see her husband face in each child, sometimes the mistress could not have childern. she was so bitter she would whip either or both to death. no tammyjo it was never decent. you should read up on some really good books , i know if you have no ideal what happen read and learn, it is misconception the ligther you were you were made more comfortable no they had it worse if the master and yes he was her father did not try to bed you the mistress was spitting in the pot so you could not have a drop of food i read alot . or when you fed the dog if he did not want it they made you eat it . there is a very good book call A SLAVE GIRL LIFE i do not know who wrote it i shoulc know that at least but that is one book i will never forget

mons

(in reply to abytchgoddess4u)

Post #: 40

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