Restoring the draft (Full Version)

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Level -> Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 12:41:04 PM)

Even as there's talk inside the Pentagon of extending the troop surge in Iraq well into 2008, the U.S. military remains in a vise, crushed between the demands of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that have made recruiting more difficult. Right now, there are only two real ways to extend or even increase the surge: call up more reservists - always tough to do in an election year - or extend active-duty combat tours from the current morale-wrecking 15 months to an even more painful 18 months. But Marine General Peter Pace, outgoing chairman of the Joint Chiefs, reassured GIs in Afghanistan this week that 18-month combat tours are not, as has been rumored, in their future. "An 18-month tour has zero, zero, none, nada, squat, nothing, no validity, OK?" he said. "I want to make sure you got that."


So then what about the third, most controversial option - is it time to reinstitute the draft? That option has a certain appeal as the Army fell short of its active-duty recruiting goal for June by about 15%. It is the second consecutive month the service's enlistment effort has slipped as public discontent grows over the war in Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070721/us_time/restoringthedraftnopanacea



HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 12:51:51 PM)

We have reached the point where we have three options, either pay the military a LOT more in order to attract more volunteers, reinstitute the draft to meet recruiting shortfalls, or pull our army out of the rest of the world and only use it for small skirmishes since downsizing has made our military too small for prolonged major combat.

None of those choices are popular so politicians facing an election year will try to weasle away from doing any of them.



luckydog1 -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 1:08:27 PM)

have rope..

Or set up a  French foriegn legion type branch, the French do it so it must be progressive and good right?

Or simply start being less carefull.  we could accomplish a lot more with the same number of troops if we were more ruthless.  And since we are being painted as ruthless as Hitler, why not.

There are several options



popeye1250 -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 1:18:06 PM)

Or, we could start pulling our Troops out of the 130 countries that they are in now.
We've had 37,000 Troops in S. Korea for (54) Fifty Four years now. How much is enough?
And yes, we need to pay people in the Military A LOT more money than they get now!
It's a "Profession" and they should be paid comensurate with other professions.



DesertRat -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 1:28:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
...Or simply start being less carefull.  we could accomplish a lot more with the same number of troops if we were more ruthless.  And since we are being painted as ruthless as Hitler, why not.


You mean, kill more innocent civilians? That's a brilliant strategy! We've been using it to great effect in Afghanistan and that's why the war in that country is pretty much over, right? It should be obvious that the way to get the people on our side is to kill their friends and family. Not to mention how good it makes those of us here at home feel.

Bob



HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 1:34:08 PM)

Lucky,
The French disbanded the Foreign Legion a long time ago, for good reason. Any independent military unit will eventually become corrupt.
I do totally agree with you though that if we want to win wars we need to stop trying to be "humanitarian" at the same time. The way to win any war is to be more ruthless than your opposition, either that or vastly outnumber it.



mefisto69 -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 1:37:02 PM)

I'll agree to a draft ONLY when the children of those parents earning $100,000 or more a year GO FIRST.



Aswad -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 1:37:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

The French disbanded the Foreign Legion a long time ago, for good reason.


Please click this link for the official homepage of the French Foreign Legion.

It does not seem very disbanded.



Vendaval -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 1:43:56 PM)

Are you suggesting that military personnel should be paid well enough to no longer qualify for Food Stamps?
 
 
(edited for verb tense)



quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And yes, we need to pay people in the Military A LOT more money than they get now!
It's a "Profession" and they should be paid comensurate with other professions.




GhitaAmati -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 1:52:50 PM)

As a military wife, Im not ready to get into a discussion about money and benifits...I think thats for another thread...I could spend quite a bit of your time discussing how shitty some of the kids in the military are treated by our government.

Anyway, a draft...Im not so sure honestly...somedays I think it would be great, other days I wonder. There are days I see a really bratty rude teenager and go, damn someone ought to shove him in the military, other times I am glad some of the teenagers I know havent had to live through some of the things I have.

Anyone got any thoughts on the chinese way of insisting EVERY one, male and female serve a specific amount of time in the military (someone forgive me if this is wrong..normally I go check my facts before posting, running out of time today) but I think its the Chinese that say everyone has to serve two years no matter what. (not saying I endorse this idea, just wondering about others thoughts).

ghita~



TheHeretic -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 2:02:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

So then what about the third, most controversial option - is it time to reinstitute the draft?



      You know all those illegal immigrants...?



farglebargle -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 2:06:17 PM)

Well, FIRST, everyone of service age, WHO SUPPORTS THE WAR *must* sign up.

No more of this "I have other priorities" shit.

If you SUPPORT THE WAR, YOU MUST SERVE.

That'll shut up the chickenshits.




EldroRolod -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 2:13:12 PM)

Nope.  French Foreign Legion is still active...  and is still one of the best military units around. 

As for the draft, being a member of the military myself, I have very conflicting opinions about it.  Part of our military's greatness is that it IS volunteer.  I have worked along side several other military forces over the years who were conscript (drafted) forces and can tell you the quality of soldier leaves MUCH to be desired.  They have no motivation to excel or even measure up, other than the threat of punishment.  (and as for the one comment about rich kids going first, the media generated belief that most military members come from poor families, minorities, or people who couldnt hold down a real job is complete crap and it pisses me off every time I hear it.  I'm in the reserves now and most of the people I serve with make MUCH more money in civilian life than they do when on military orders.  We do it because it is in our blood.  We have to.  Defending our Nation is what we were born to do..  such is the way of the warrior.)

The Clinton administration reduced the size of the military by 45% during the 90's so yes, we are stretched pretty thin.  There is a large "BUT" involved in the whole discussion though...  and that is that recruiting goals are being met very consistently all throughout the year.  There is no shortage of volunteers.  The size of the military is determined by the Government.  They limit how many people can enter so the size remains constant.  The fewer people who retire or the more who re-enlist, equals fewer people you have to recruit.  If they decided to increase the size of the overall force structure tomorrow, they would still find the recruits.  There is no need for a draft.  I always laugh when people say Bush wants to start the draft, when in fact, the only person to attempt to institute one since 9/11 was a democrat.  Most of the military people I know are making sure they can stay in and volunteering to do more. 

There are roughly 1.4 million members of the US Armed Forces.  (Really a small force for the U.S.) Currently about 160,000 are deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.  I agree the military should be grown to about twice it's current strength, but not because we cant handle what is currently happening around the world...  only because it is only going to get worse.  and no, it isnt our fault. 



farglebargle -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 2:14:59 PM)

I think Bush shouldn't have bothered TRYING Iraq without conscripting 2 MILLION PEOPLE, so they could land a force of a Million.




GhitaAmati -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 2:31:05 PM)

Eldro, thank you for saying what I wanted to but didnt really have the time to come up with the words for.

Sir is also in the reserves now, 24 years total military service but dropped down to reserves a few years ago. I mentioned this on another unrelated thread earlier, but I wanted to repeat it here. We happen to live in the same town as Sir's unit, but alot of the soldiers don't. Some travel over 6 or 7 hours one way just to get to drill. Alot of the kids in the unit, really dont have alot of spare cash laying around. They generally spend more during the drill weekend to take time off their civilian jobs, traveling to drill, paying for a hotel because we all know the army doesnt provide that sort of thing, and paying to eat out than they actually MAKE during the two day drill. And yet these kids (and older guys too..sorry..I just see the financial hardships more with the young ones) continue to show up for drill month after month. We try to put alot of them up at our house for the weekend and cook for them, but we obviously dont have enough room for three platoons. A few months ago, the unit insisted that everyone in the unit purchase their own uniforms when it was time to switch to ACUs because the unit didnt have the finances for it. They werent going to supply these kids with the new uniforms, yet if they didnt aqquire them by a certain time, they would be in trouble. This happens over and over again. Yet everyone managed to show up at the proper drill with all the items they needed! It never ceases to amaze me the amount of dedication they have.

ghita~



BamaD -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 2:40:20 PM)

Brilliant if everyone who supports the war signs up, including I quess we 50+ guys who signed up during Vietnam then the only people left here to run the war are those who oppose it.

That like saying that you can't be pro choice unless you work in an abortion clinic



farglebargle -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 2:48:14 PM)

How many College Republicans aren't doing their part?

There are PLENTY of Rich, White Kids who support the war, but are too busy at Georgetown to bother actually getting off their asses and responding to Their President's Call To Service.

In other words, PUSSIES.

You round up all these PUSSIES, and shame them into the service they should be willing to do honorably, and there's no shortage of manpower.




HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 2:52:43 PM)

Aswad,
I stand corrected. I do know that it was disbanded. Apparently it has been reconstituted. Though looking at the site it appears to be a shadow of what it once was, only 10 regiments. I suppose it has a much different Espirit de Corps these days as it appears to be professional military these days rather than the best place for hiding out from law that was getting too close as in the old days.



Lordandmaster -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 3:12:39 PM)

You're wrong about China.  (Edited to add: Maybe you're thinking of Taiwan?  They call themselves "Republic of China"--that could be the source of the confusion.)

Israel does it though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

Anyone got any thoughts on the chinese way of insisting EVERY one, male and female serve a specific amount of time in the military (someone forgive me if this is wrong..normally I go check my facts before posting, running out of time today) but I think its the Chinese that say everyone has to serve two years no matter what. (not saying I endorse this idea, just wondering about others thoughts).



BamaD -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/21/2007 3:14:36 PM)

You clearly bested me there sidesteping the fact that it would neatly get everyone you disagree with out of the debate and that it is like that only people in the welfare system (either as workers or recipiants ) have the right to discuss the matter.

Come up with something new that argument was worn out during Vietnam



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