RE: Restoring the draft (Full Version)

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Aswad -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/22/2007 7:22:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

It is rigged here against independents, it seems, they make it hard to get in the debates, etc....


Has nothing to do with that.
The democratic process in the US is rigged.
Its only stable configuration is, as designed, the two-party system.
This is one of the reason other places use parliamentary democracy and such.

quote:


Just curious, how many major parties are in Canada? I'm trying to get an idea of how things are spread out among them.


No idea, but I'll provide unsolicited information on Norway in this regard.
We also use a parliamentary system, yielding multiple major parties.
The major parties (media coverage and influence) are:
  • Labour Party (Ap) - Tied to labour movement, moderate socialists.
  • Socialist Left (SV) - Lots of "good" causes, socialists.
  • Christian Party (KrF) - Christian conservative party.
  • Conservative Party (H) - Fiscal right-wing, minimal government interference.
  • Progress Party (FrP) - Liberal party, somewhat xenophobic and un-PC.
  • Centre Party (SP) - Centrist party, focused on rural policy and distributed gov't.
  • Liberal Party (V) - Social-liberal and centre-right, minimal gov't interference, welfare, environment, education and small business.
  • Red (RV) - Revolutionary socialist/communist party.
  • Democrats (?) - Nationalist right-wing.
The last two are fortunately tiny, currently with no representation on a central level.

No party has had a simple majority (50% seats) in my lifetime, though Ap came close early on with 46%. The seats elect a governmental body which, unless the combined body has a simple majority, will need to cooperate with the regular seats to pass motions. Current coalition is Ap-SV-SP, previous was H-V-KrF, next will likely be H-FrP or H-FrP-V, depending on whether V swallows their pride enough to work with FrP.




Aswad -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/22/2007 7:42:23 AM)

mnottertail,

Ah, right. Vietnam predates me, I'm afraid.




Level -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/22/2007 7:42:25 AM)

I appreciate the info, Aswad. How well does the parlimentary system work? It would seem to invite gridlock, but obviously, things still get done.




Aswad -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/22/2007 7:45:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

Here's an idea, not that it would be popular. Open the military to those who are in prison for non violent crimes. They serve the rest of their sentence at war instead of in prison.


Not a bad idea, as long as it's voluntary, restricted to mentally competent people of an age to serve, etc.

quote:


Benefits-I never met anyone who did not come back much improved in terms of their outlook on life.  Prison doesn't have that effect.  You turn someone out who is worse than when they went in. 


While I agree with your assessment on prisons, there are a lot of people who come back from war in a state that I would not describe as "improved". The ability to choose such an option may make a difference, though.




mnottertail -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/22/2007 7:51:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I appreciate the info, Aswad. How well does the parlimentary system work? It would seem to invite gridlock, but obviously, things still get done.


No, this is MonteCarlo analysis---
when several groups with no clear charge get together they must find creative solutions of compromise----kinda like society at  large  usually works.

Here we have an adversarial system, pitted one against another.  This leads to gridlock and very unpalatable solutions.  You can always say fuck it to one another because your party is gonna be in control this time, but next time it is mine.

Ron




Aswad -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/22/2007 7:56:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I appreciate the info, Aswad. How well does the parlimentary system work? It would seem to invite gridlock, but obviously, things still get done.


As with any democracy, the wheels keep turning and change takes time.
Apart from that, it means you actually feel like there's a chance to change things.
It doesn't take away frustration associated with majority rule, as people are still sheep.
Personally, I'd like to see a H-V coalition for two terms, but it won't happen any time soon.

Gridlock can happen on some issues, but then those are usually controversial, so I see this as a case of the system working as intended. When the controversy is resolved, the motions pass without incident. Of course, a lot of positions are regular jobs, rather than being elected, which helps avoid problems; the gov't can still kick someone out of such a position, but that's very rarely done, affording a measure of consistency, even if the people in these positions do implement the changes in policy that they are handed.

Judges, for instance, are not elected, IIRC.
Police department heads are not elected.
Military leadership (DoD) is not elected.
And so forth.

A lot of things are localized, so the wheels turn on their own, but policy comes down as it is made.




Aswad -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/22/2007 8:03:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

No, this is MonteCarlo analysis---when several groups with no clear charge get together they must find creative solutions of compromise----kinda like society at  large  usually works.


Exactly.

For instance, at one point, the Liberal Party only had 2 seats, but got 150 motions passed.
This is more than twice as many per seat as any other party that term.

The reasons this work is, there will never be a lasting majority, so you always need to be on good enough terms with the other parties to make compromises possible, unless they are so far from you in policy that it would lose voters to do so. When the Liberal Party got these motions passed, it was because anyone can start a motion, and theirs were quite simply good ones.




mnottertail -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/22/2007 8:14:05 AM)

quote:

Exactly.


Human interaction is often where Occams razor takes a big dump.  We  rely on it for far more than it is designed to do.




Aswad -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/22/2007 2:50:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Human interaction is often where Occams razor takes a big dump.  We  rely on it for far more than it is designed to do.


No. It's where we fail to apply it. "Do not needlessly multiply entities."

Anyway, I find Hanlon's Razor more useful than Occam's Razor in dealing with humans and interactions.




Alumbrado -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/22/2007 3:25:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Meh. I'm less concerned about the Supreme Court ( Is this the same Supreme Court that ruled in Dred Scott? )...


If it is, they must be geting a little ripe by now.
[8|]




Alumbrado -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/22/2007 3:32:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

There is nothing honourable about suicide, the rites of seppuku made it formalized yet no less dishonourable


'Honor' refers to fame, renown, or distinction...how do you figure that those who comitted ritual seppuku within the culture that coined that term, failed to achieve honor?





michaelOfGeorgia -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/22/2007 3:46:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

There is nothing honorable about suicide, the rites of seppuku made it formalized yet no less dishonorable


this has me wondering (not meaning to venture off-topic here) but, why is seppuku or hari kari considered exceptable (honorable) while suicide is not? Just curious.




Aswad -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/23/2007 6:54:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

this has me wondering (not meaning to venture off-topic here) but, why is seppuku or hari kari considered exceptable (honorable) while suicide is not? Just curious.


Cultural differences.

"Just" killing yourself isn't a hard thing to do, but seppuku has special requirements.
First of all, the rituals give time to think about it; it cannot be an impulsive action.
Hence, you cannot do it without a conscious commitment, and full knowledge.
While it was recognized as a way to "get out", it was never an easy way out.
Performing a hara kiri correctly takes a self-discipline most cannot grasp.
The level of pain involved is beyond what most people can think to bear.
Yet, if you cry out, or do something wrong, you have lost your honor.
It has to be done just so, or what you sought to gain has been lost.
This is "just" a formal ritual to redeem yourself through a sacrifice.

Would you consider Jesus' crucifixion to be dishonorable, the easy way out?
He knew what he was going to, and knew before the soldiers came.
Instead of escaping, he performed a symbolic act of redemption.
For himself and for those who were given over to his care.
This is strongly paralleled in seppuku practices.

Performing seppuku means dying with honour, and securing various people against repercussions.
In a way, in the cultural context where it was practiced, it was a way to take responsibility.
We may not see it that way in the West, many decrying "easy way out" and such.
Those who do, have usually never faced death in a rational frame of mind.
And certainly not a death of the sort caused by hari kiri.

It's simply devaluing other people's choices based on a lack of comprehension.

Seem familiar to BDSM'ers in any way?




FirmhandKY -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/23/2007 7:19:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Human interaction is often where Occams razor takes a big dump.  We  rely on it for far more than it is designed to do.


No. It's where we fail to apply it. "Do not needlessly multiply entities."

Anyway, I find Hanlon's Razor more useful than Occam's Razor in dealing with humans and interactions.



I prefer to call it Heinlein's Razor.

FirmKY




Sinergy -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/23/2007 7:19:37 AM)

General reply to nobody in particular.

A poster in a previous post mentioned that the US military has testified before Congress that we do not need a draft, but failed to give the reasons the US does not need a draft.

As a highly mechanized military force, the US military needs skilled technicians and specialists to keep everything up and running.  We need computer specialists, deisel specialists, C3I specialists, pilots, drivers, special forces, etc.

A draft or opening up prisons to allow people to serve in the military gives us cannon fodder.  People who have zero initiative to do anything with their time in the military.  People one can trust to traipse through jungle canopy shooting the Man In The Black Pajamas or over deserts shooting Iraqis, but not really ones who have any interest in getting an advanced education to teach them to rebuild a command fire console on an aircraft carrier during active combat conditions.

In other words, the idiocy that AnencephalyBoy has stuck us with in Iraq is just the sort of conflict which a draft would help us (read: provide targets for insurgents) with, but completely unworkable for the military Clinton et al built that allowed AnencephalyBoy to get us into this mess in the first place.

Sinergy




FirmhandKY -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/23/2007 7:20:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Hell, O'Reilly's audience's AVERAGE age is 71!


You have a source for this, by chance?

FirmKY




FirmhandKY -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/23/2007 7:24:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

Aswad,
I stand corrected. I do know that it was disbanded. Apparently it has been reconstituted. Though looking at the site it appears to be a shadow of what it once was, only 10 regiments. I suppose it has a much different Espirit de Corps these days as it appears to be professional military these days rather than the best place for hiding out from law that was getting too close as in the old days.


The Legion was never disbanded.

However, the 1st Parachute Regiment of the Legion was disbanded after the Algerian revolt:

The 1st Régiment Étranger Parachutiste (1st REP) was established in 1955 during the Algerian War and disbanded in April 1961 as the entire regiment rose against the French government of Charles de Gaulle (Algiers Putsch), in protest against moves to negotiate an end to the Algerian War. Following Algerian Independence in 1962 the Legion was reduced in numbers but avoided the wholesale disbandments of most other units comprising the "Army of Africa" (Spahis, Zouaves, Tirailleurs, Meharistes, Harkis, Goums and Chasseurs d'Afrique). The intention seems to have been to retain a professional force which could be used for military interventions outside France and not involve the politically unpopular use of French conscripts. The abolition of conscription in France in 2001 and the creation of an entirely professional army might be expected to put the Legion's longterm future at risk, but as of 2007 there is no sign of this.


FirmKY




farglebargle -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/23/2007 7:31:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Hell, O'Reilly's audience's AVERAGE age is 71!


You have a source for this, by chance?

FirmKY




http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/11/arts/television/11keit.html?ex=1310270400&en=4ccc4d43ec65612e&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

But hey, it is the ole-grey-whore's arts & tv section... YMMV...




FirmhandKY -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/23/2007 7:56:27 AM)

This is your source:

MSNBC’s Star Carves Anti-Fox Niche

MSNBC revamped its prime-time schedule two weeks ago, shelving many of its prime-time hosts in favor of documentary-style programs but retaining “Countdown,” a program the network cites as its great growth story.

That growth, while coming from a base that Fox News would find disastrously puny, is demonstrable, especially among the group that is chiefly sold to news advertisers: people between the ages of 25 and 54.

...

Still, for the year, Mr. Olbermann has managed to climb past CNN into second place in the news channel competition at 8 p.m. among that 25-to-54 group. That qualifies as a feat for MSNBC, though Mr. Olbermann’s show remains little more than a dot in the rearview mirror of Fox News.


...

... he seems to have been able to honk his horn loud enough to raise hackles at Fox, which, Mr. Olbermann enthusiastically acknowledges, has been his precise intention as well as a useful marketing strategy.

...

Mr. Olbermann thinks he knows one reason behind his gains. He believes that Mr. O’Reilly’s audience, which is still huge, is aging. He noted that Mr. O’Reilly’s total viewer ratings are basically flat, while his numbers in the younger audience group have been dropping — down about 15 percent for the last quarter. “There is no other conclusion to draw than he is not adding younger viewers,” Mr. Olbermann said.

Of course, in terms of numbers of viewers in that younger age group, Mr. O’Reilly is still playing in another league, with about three times as many as Mr. Olbermann. But that does represent a small slice of the total audience for Mr. O’Reilly.

MSNBC’s research claims that the median age for Mr. O’Reilly’s audience is 71, while Mr. Olbermann’s is 59. (Fox and CNN both report that the only figures they get for median age of shows with older audiences is “65 plus,” and that Mr. O’Reilly’s audience falls into that category.)

The age discrepancy has led Mr. Olbermann to dish out even more mockery in his attacks.

This is my source:

What do people think of cable news?

Who Is Watching Cable News?

 Using Pew’s media consumption survey, we have compiled a profile of the average viewer of different media outlets and sectors.

The average viewer of Fox News identifies himself as conservative in ideology (although he classifies his party affiliation as independent).

The average CNN viewer, in contrast, self-identifies as being a moderate, but also tends to be registered as independent.

The MSNBC viewer tends to be a Democrat, and describes himself as a political moderate.

Fox News viewers are the oldest at 48.7 years, followed by CNN (47.1) and MSNBC (46.5). Of the three, the CNN viewers have the lowest median income, $45,000 a year. In contrast, both MSNBC and Fox News viewers make $62,000.


You are taking mockery, marketing ploys and partisan research as gospel simply because it denigrates people you dislike, and fits your stereotypes.

FirmKY




FirmhandKY -> RE: Restoring the draft (7/23/2007 7:58:42 AM)

More interesting info:

Network audiences are showing their age




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