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MaitresseEden -> Dick and a Paycheck (6/25/2005 9:36:54 PM)

Due to technical difficulties I have been absent in posting for a short while. However I have tried to catch up on some of the posts and there is something that has caught my eye in both the real world and the online communities.

There seems to be this prevelence of thought that all woman seek in a relationship is a stiff dick, and a fat paycheck from their partners, and that all men seek is a pussy and a paycheck.


I will also go so far as to admit that I know of many woman & men who perpetuate this ideology with thier own behavior. We can all name numerous relationships where one person works their fingers to the bone and the other spends it readiliy, and if this is TRULY consentual there is nothing wrong with it.

However I find that the backlash of someone having been "taken to the cleaners" or used "financially" often prevents people from every trying to have a truly loving relationship again. "Once burned, twice shy mentality is pervasive everywhere it seems.


It is almost as if there is an nationally "pissing" contest within the single and looking community about who has had the most bad luck, or most hurt.

I guess my question is this: why is it so difficult for people to unpack their baggage, learn from thier mistakes and take risks? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I think we have a choice in life, to be bitter and cynical or to be happy. Sure you may get burned again, and hopefully you have some common sense. But seriously if people really and truly want to find Mr. or Ms. Right that truly is someone they can co-exist happily with, you have to take into consideration more than just the package and the paycheck. Yes, those things are important, but seriously folks, are they really the end all of everything. I thought "you can't buy love"... granted you can rent it for a short period of time. But a truly loving compassionate relationship, (and yes that can also be a D/s kinky one).. needs to be based on a whole lot more than just how good a fuck someone is, how hot he or she is, and how much money they make. So why are those the issues and reasons everyone always comes back to? Are we all really becoming that shallow?


Ms. Eden




DesertRat -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/25/2005 10:06:31 PM)

Hello, Ms. Eden,

I don't know why it's hard for folks to stash that baggage; I can only speak for myself. Maybe it's just part of their recovery process and when the time is right, they do move on to better things. I know I have been burned, but it hasn't made me mistrustful or negative. I did go through a bit of a dark period, but I tried to avoid inflicting it on others and, as I said, it was just a part of my recovery. Had some bad luck and some pain but, the way I see it, I played a part in it and also learned from it. I have memories and lessons learned, but I don't care to wear that stuff around like a big, ugly hair shirt. I keep trying...will trust again...love again...maybe lose again. What the hell...you can't win if you don't play.

Bob




MaitresseEden -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/25/2005 10:24:15 PM)

I agree Bob, we have to "play" and take risks in life if we are ever to obtain happiness, and without pain and suffering we become stagnant and often stop growing. I think bags need to be unpacked and dealt with, as opposed to just be stashed.. (symantics I know).. I think the thing that bothers me the most is the shallowness and "vainity" that seems to be creeping into the lifestyle more and more these days.

Ms. Eden




DesertRat -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/25/2005 11:03:19 PM)

You may be right, but I am reluctant to say that I see any trends. The only data I have come from my personal experience, and that is anecdotal. I just deal with individual people on a case by case basis, and that's what works best for me. I don't go to munches or play parties, and don't have many real-life bdsm friends, so my only contact with the "community", if there is indeed such a thing, comes from message boards like this one. And I always retain a degree of skepticism when reading posts.

But, as I said earlier, maybe you're right. Seems to me the USA has generally been moving in the direction of greed, vanity, and shallowness these past few years, so maybe that general trend is reflected here as well.

Bob




BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 1:27:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaitresseEden
I guess my question is this: why is it so difficult for people to unpack their baggage, learn from thier mistakes and take risks? Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Taking risks is easier said than done. I have loved and landed on my ass, and would definitely go there again to feel everything I felt, but a whole lot is required (in terms of time, altering thinking, and deciding to forgive/let go) before one can move forward to what hopefully is bigger and better... Do you really think that most people spend that much time introspecting and learning from their contributiion to the mess that occurred, when it's so much easier to blame it on someone else's evil deeds/ways?

quote:

a truly loving compassionate relationship, (and yes that can also be a D/s kinky one).. needs to be based on a whole lot more than just how good a fuck someone is, how hot he or she is, and how much money they make. So why are those the issues and reasons everyone always comes back to? Are we all really becoming that shallow?
Ms. Eden

Yes, I think we are becoming that shallow... When I meet someone and tell some of my friends/coworkers, among the first things asked are "what does he do, and is he good looking" ; incidentally it's among the first things asked of me (what do I do, and why do I only do it part time?)... Very infrequently do we get to the values questions (of integrity, kindness, magnanimity/generosity).
In our own search for validation we want someone who is socially acceptable, presentable, even enviable; how often do you hear someone say "I envy that person because he/she is so kind/caring and generous?" I've never heard it; I have heard I wish I looked more like that, or had more than he/she has.
I believe there are plenty of people with greater depth than that, but I cannot say they are in the majority unfortunately.. M




MHOO314 -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 6:24:43 AM)

I find that the "pity parties" here are as prevalent as they are in the vanilla world, its like SSDD--- people don't learn inthe vanilla world, they don't learn in the Life--I agree too with the baggage, I dont want to keep hearing about the ex--and how bad she was-- if there are kids involved, we can deal with that but the past is just that---past, get over it and get on!




Understudy -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 8:03:14 AM)

quote:

There seems to be this prevelence of thought that all woman seek in a relationship is a stiff dick, and a fat paycheck from their partners, and that all men seek is a pussy and a paycheck.


I think your setting a standard that is way to high. Most men don't care if the woman has a paycheck. :)

I discovered very early on that relationships are as complicated as we choose to make them. Some people are just not happy if their life doesn't resemble a soap opera. They thrive on the drama and then deny it when asked if they want the drama in their lives.

So in many aspects my life to many is now boring. I am married and we actually like each other. With the exception of a few moments when I am of course always right. There is very little drama to our lives. So to many vanilla outsiders my life is dull dull dull. None of the other subs that share activly in my lifestyle are drama queens either(Do you know how hard it is to find that sometimes though).

So I let the outsiders think I am boring I let those who are not drama queens in on the fun.

People want to lead interesting lives, sometimes their view of interesting is a little askew (my opinion). They think as long as the world knows there is drama and some sort of action in their lives that they are living life to the fullest. It gives them a "story" to tell. You can have much better stories if you enjoy what you are doing in your life. If you enjoy the soap opera and want you life to be like that, stay outta mine.

Now I will say this, wanting a paycheck isn't always an awful request, having been without makes life dramatic.
I also think if in a month you get three paychecks from three different places of employment, you are not exactly a picture of stablity. The fact that someone wants to be with the unstable person because of the drama(often mistaken for affection and emotional attachement) is where I end up scratching my head and saying to myself, "what were you thinking?"


Yours in boredom,
Brendhan





MaitresseEden -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 8:46:54 AM)

quote:

Do you really think that most people spend that much time introspecting and learning from their contributiion to the mess that occurred, when it's so much easier to blame it on someone else's evil deeds/ways?


No I don't. I think it would be a great idea if more people did however. I think that is a part of ones upbringing. Some are raised to avoid and run from conflict and others to embrace it.

Yes, I think we are becoming that shallow... When I meet someone and tell some of my friends/coworkers, among the first things asked are "what does he do, and is he good looking" ; incidentally it's among the first things asked of me (what do I do, and why do I only do it part time?)... Very infrequently do we get to the values questions (of integrity, kindness, magnanimity/generosity).


astute observation, why do you think people don't ask the value questions? I think it may be because then they would have to closely examine their own, and most are too afraid to look that deep, or see thier own hypocrisy. Great post!


Ms. Eden




MaitresseEden -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 8:59:43 AM)

quote:

think your setting a standard that is way to high. Most men don't care if the woman has a paycheck. :)


What is wrong with setting a standard high? the opposite would be "settling" for less than one deserves. Of couse I speak in generalities for the purpose of this post, however I am seeing more of a trend with men wanting woman to bring home the bacon and be the ones frying it up in a pan.

quote:

Some people are just not happy if their life doesn't resemble a soap opera. They thrive on the drama and then deny it when asked if they want the drama in their lives.


No argument from me on that point. As a lover of peace and tranquility I am amazed by the conflict many people create. Again I think introspection helps here. " Argue for one limitations and they become yours".. to quote Richard Bach.

quote:

They think as long as the world knows there is drama and some sort of action in their lives that they are living life to the fullest. It gives them a "story" to tell.


Excellent point. Why is it that we ( memeber of the free independent society ) care so much about what others think, and how others are perceiving us?

quote:

Now I will say this, wanting a paycheck isn't always an awful request, having been without makes life dramatic.
I also think if in a month you get three paychecks from three different places of employment, you are not exactly a picture of stablity. The fact that someone wants to be with the unstable person because of the drama(often mistaken for affection and emotional attachement) is where I end up scratching my head and saying to myself, "what were you thinking?"


No argument there either, I wholeheartedly agree that stability is an imporant value to have, and that money is important to pay the bills, My gripe is geared more to those who live way above thier means and are greedy in terms of what they have and can buy with thier money, Please don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating poverty as a lifestyle choice. I am advocating realistic expectations. Financial responsibility is important, but it should not be confused with wealth. I know many who appear to have it all, and toss money around like it is water, yet are up to their eyeballs in debt, and it could go in flash, and on the same token I know those who for all intensive purposes live as if they have nothing, but are more secure and stable then those who appear to be living in luxury.

Ms. Eden

Ms. Eden




LadyAngelika -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 9:10:40 AM)

quote:

astute observation, why do you think people don't ask the value questions? I think it may be because then they would have to closely examine their own, and most are too afraid to look that deep, or see thier own hypocrisy. Great post!


I would add that self-actualisation is a process that someone must learn and it's a very scary thing for some people to look within. I admit is was scary the first few times. Now I do it daily during meditation.

- LA




ProtagonistLily -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 10:34:34 AM)

Eden,

This is an excellent topic, and rather timely for me. I'm in a new relationship and we've been concentrating on learning each other over the past several weeks. We've encorporated S/M and B&D and are slowly finding our way into what will be comfortable and work for us D/s wise.

The issue of money came up just yesterday. While we are both employed, he is more financially secure than I am right now. Things are looking up, but I've been squeeking by the last couple of weeks.

We had plans this weekend and I suggested we go dutch. Because of past problems I've had with partners and money, I'm not comfortable letting him foot the whole bill. Perhaps, in time and with trust, that will change, but for right now, I feel very strongly that I should contribute to our outings financially.

He was very kind about this, but of course, wanted to know more about why I was skittish about money. In my experience, of so many inanimate objects, money has a great deal of potential to rouse anger and respentment, and I don't want to go there with this man.

As a result of trusting someone in a vanilla relationship to take care of the finances, I'm pretty much financially ruined for the next 10 years or so. He defaulted on my student loans and never told me, even though I was giving him more than enough money to cover my end of our expenses. (Yes, I know I could sue him; I know all that so I'm going to thank you all in advance for the tips. ;-) Needless to say, I've been slowly working on rebuilding my credit.

But money is difficult in relationships sometimes. I think of all of the 'outside' forces on a couple, especially a new couple and doubly especially where a D/s dynamic is incorporated, the power of money and the residual 'side effects' need to be respected on the outset.

Great topic, thanks for posting it Eden!

Lily





MaitresseEden -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 11:55:21 AM)

We had plans this weekend and I suggested we go dutch. Because of past problems I've had with partners and money, I'm not comfortable letting him foot the whole bill. Perhaps, in time and with trust, that will change, but for right now, I feel very strongly that I should contribute to our outings financially.


I totally understand that dilema Lily, However what happens when you don't have the funds to go "dutch"? I have found that while many like that idea and some want it. When I say " I'm sorry, but I can't afford that at this time, there tends to be some resentment.

As a result of trusting someone in a vanilla relationship to take care of the finances, I'm pretty much financially ruined for the next 10 years or so. He defaulted on my student loans and never told me, even though I was giving him more than enough money to cover my end of our expenses. (Yes, I know I could sue him; I know all that so I'm going to thank you all in advance for the tips. ;-) Needless to say, I've been slowly working on rebuilding my credit.

Been there done that.. I've taken the opposite roles in that I make it plainly clear that if they want to do something I expect them to pay. However this in turns leads them to believe that I am solely interested in thier paycheck. Which In all honesty I'm not. I am just as content to have a quiet night in, grilling some burgers than to go paint the town at 5 star resturants. I can do both, and enjoy both, but often I opt for the more relaxed at home dates than the night out on the town ones. I consider myself to be extremely low maintence in the area of "entertainment" as I would much prefer a deep conversation and a foot massage to a night of "tripping the lights fantastic"

But money is difficult in relationships sometimes. I think of all of the 'outside' forces on a couple, especially a new couple and doubly especially where a D/s dynamic is incorporated, the power of money and the residual 'side effects' need to be respected on the outset

BINGO!.. the power of money and or lack thereof. often is the great eqaulizer in relationships, be them DS or otherwise. Here are some current Statistics courtesy of Amer. Assoc of University Women:

Two-equally-qualified people follwo tthe same careet path in education, skills, and abilities. The only difference is that one is a male and the other , a female. Statistics prove she will earn only 76 cents for every dollar her male counterpart makes.

In he makes $10,000 She makes $7,600
20,000 --- 15,200
30,000 ----- 22,800
40,000 ---- 30,400
50, 000 ---- 38,000
60,000 ---- 45,600
70,000 ---- 53,200
80,000 --- 60,800
90,000 ---- 68,400
100,000 ---- 76,000
The United states Census Bureau reports that the average mean income for women in $40,404 annually. The average mean income for men is $47,532 annually.

based on this single statistic, you are right to assume that- as things stand today- you would be earning more money if you were a man. What would you do with a a raise of $7, 128?

If you believe the woman's movement address the issue of pay equity in its rabble-rousing heyday of the 60's and 70's think again.

Woman have only gained TWELVE CENTS toward pay equity with men in the last 30 years up from 64 cents to 76 cents for every dollar and equibalently-employment man can earned.

At this rate, it will take another 60 years before pay equity is achieved.

Do you have that long to wait? Is this what you want for your daughters and grandaughters?



I guess what perturbs me more than anything is when I see the countless number of posts from men who complain that woman are only out for thier paycheck.. In particular you hear within the scene males complain about the Dommes who want $, or assume they just want to be taken to dinneer, etc. ( referenceing some previous recent threads in which accusations were made toward woman). I posted this in general because I would love some of the men to comment on the topic as well. Perhaps if people had a greater understand of the wage disparity between men and woman they would be less likely to be so hostile about the subject. Granted there are always exceptions, and nothing is ever absolute. It all goes back to what BLKTALLFULLFIG said.. we need to be discussing values, more and $ less.

Ms. Eden




Blk4u2 -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 12:09:03 PM)

Wow. A topic that hits close to home. Coming out of a 5 year marriage...i felt exactly like the ppl u were talking about. Screw the world, and i'll just use and fuck every woman I come into contact with. There was only one problem. It wasn't in my personaility. So after almost a year, I started dating again. Miraculously I've found someone who I am very much in love with. She is first and formost my love, secondly my very willing and naughty submissive. We are exploring this thing together, and having a hell of a time.

If I had stayed in that mentaliy, I would never have found her. I had planned to continue my ways, swinging, cuckolding and using women for what I want. Now I am happy again, and those other things, we may do them together, then again we may not.




MaitresseEden -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 12:20:41 PM)

So what made you aquire that mindset to begin with? and what snapped you out of it? if I can ask..

Ms. Eden




onceburned -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 1:30:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaitresseEden
I guess what perturbs me more than anything is when I see the countless number of posts from men who complain that woman are only out for thier paycheck.


I find those comments to be exasperating as well (especially when they come from doms!).

But I do wonder about what triggers such an emotional reaction. I have heard that the rage that fuels so many anti-gay hate crimes has its origins in self-loathing. The violent person either fears that they themselves are gay (and can't reconcile it with their world views) or they are worried that they don't measure up to masculine standards (and a gay person personifies an 'unmasculine man'). So these men, confronted with their inner self-doubt, react with rage and violence.

I am going out on a limb here, but perhaps all the tirades against 'money dommes' is also rooted in self-loathing. Such guys worry that they are not attractive to women, other than their paycheck. "Why would a woman put up with me otherwise?" . And this cuts deep into their self-esteem and need to be loved for who they are.

Oh... okay. I will go out even further on the limb (and more off-topic) [;)]
Perhaps the self-questioning "Why would a woman put up with me otherwise?" also leads some men into thinking that their penis is an answer. (All hail the penis!) And this is why so many men send out unsolicted cock shots.

Whew... pretty shaky out here on the limb but the breeze feels nice.




fourpeas -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 3:38:01 PM)


quote:



I guess my question is this: why is it so difficult for people to unpack their baggage, learn from thier mistakes and take risks? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I think we have a choice in life, to be bitter and cynical or to be happy.



I couldn't agree with you more... I think that people, including myself, are sometimes afraid to reach out and take risks to find happiness because what they really want is perfection... which doesn't exist. See what I'm saying? Creating happiness with a true love is often just as difficult as sitting back, doing nothing, and being unhappy. Good relationships take lots and lots of work. And there is no perfection, even with your perfect man/woman, Dom/me, etc., nothing is perfect. I think that was one thing that stopped me in the past. Just a thought.




fourpeas -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 3:38:52 PM)

Laughing at the penis comment... it's true!!




GreyStorm -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 4:50:31 PM)

quote:

Perhaps the self-questioning "Why would a woman put up with me otherwise?" also leads some men into thinking that their penis is an answer. (All hail the penis!)



I believe that should read, "All hail MY penis!"




LadyAngelika -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 5:07:32 PM)

quote:

I am going out on a limb here, but perhaps all the tirades against 'money dommes' is also rooted in self-loathing. Such guys worry that they are not attractive to women, other than their paycheck. "Why would a woman put up with me otherwise?" . And this cuts deep into their self-esteem and need to be loved for who they are.


I would say that for a portion of those that say "I don't understand it" or "I think it's weird" or "Why on earth would someone do that?", it's about lack of openness to other people's kink. Those who add "But hey, live and let live" demonstrate a simple lack of understanding yet demonstrate tolerance and openness.

I would say that for the smaller portion that goes completely righteous about how horrible it is and how it must stop and how those who participate in this kink are predators and poor schmucks just might fit your above description. I mean, if they don't like it, no one is forcing them to be a part of it, right? So why such a strong reaction?

- LA




lonewolf05 -> RE: Dick and a Paycheck (6/26/2005 5:24:57 PM)

i imagine for some, it may indeed be a psychological thing, why would they put up with me ....

and i suppose there are those that have that hail my penis.

my inner security thing i guess, stems from the ones that email me and tell me to buy them things from online wishlists, and, those i have gone to visit tell you 2 days later, by the way, if you become mine i want you to buy me a house.
this is MY personal hangup on it. oh yeah, and those, if you are not white collar professional do not email me. you MUST have a college degree and be successful.


so everyone, i hear what YOU say,...but now PLEASE? what do you think of what i just mentioned?
thank you ALL.




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