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RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 8:17:19 AM

gooddogbenji

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The people.

Welcome to capitalism. We could buy only Made in USA products, but then we couldn't afford our lifestyle.

How many people shop at WalMart for items they could buy that are made domestically, even if at a higher price?

If WalMart started buying their products locally, their prices would skyrocket and people would buy elsewhere. So that aint an option. Not making a profit isn't really an option either, because the investors (banks, funds, the superrich, and us) want some returns. Besides, going out of business would suck, eh?

Yours,

benji

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RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 8:18:34 AM

ShadowMster

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Joined: 7/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

Makes ya feel all like shameful and unnecessary like a gf stashed in a closet when the wifey pulls in.

You say that like it's a bad thing? Why is it she [wife] can put her in there, but when I put the gf in there, it's a bad thing? (lol)

What I love is when your call goes to India and you get someone who starts off with "Thank you for calling XYZ. This is Bob." in a thick indian accent, except for the "Bob".. Now, you know this person isn't named Bob. The quality of the phone call is so bad, the accent so thick, and the experience so poor.

I'd love to talk with a Canadian, even if just because I am able to understand what is being said.

I once heard someone say that in the US, the richer will keep getting richer on the backs of the middle class while the lower class moves to Mexico. When that was said, I didn't realize it also included Mexico's annex of the southen states.

Why outsource to a 3rd world country, south texas is so much closer and just as 3rd world.

(in reply to came4U)

Post #: 22

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 8:53:33 AM

philosophy

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Joined: 2/15/2004
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[FR]

......the culprit is globalisation. As captialism desperately searched for new markets (because no growth was seen as anathema) it created a road to other countries consumers, however it turned out to be a two way road rather than a single lane highway. Live by the sword, die by it. By modern economic thinking, money is more important than nationality.

(in reply to ShadowMster)

Post #: 23

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 9:35:05 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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Technology & Infrastructure

Why are jobs, especially good paying manufacturing jobs, being outsourced? Because they can.

If it weren't possible to monitor a call center in India handling airline customer service - it wouldn't exist. If goods were still being shipped and off-loaded in netting and irregular crates instead of containers designed for specially designed and larger container ships; importing would not be as economically feasible.

Complicit and contributory causes:

Politicians (Both Parties) - PACs only provide the opportunity of funds. There is no law requiring politicians to take it and pass laws on behalf of their PAC benefactors. PACs represent 'Free Market'. Politicians accepting and being influenced by PAC money represent legalized bribery.
Environmentalists - Who kill US projects and mining operations.
Capitalists - Who require any investment to bear fruit in one quarter versus any long term or long range project; requiring management to increase the bottom line above any consideration to what is good for the US.
Social Engineers - Whose "good intentions" and desire to re-distribute wealth, blinds them to the exodus of companies and industries that could facilitate that goal.
US Tort Law & Lawyers - Who make it impossible to consider opening any new industry in the US for fear of lawsuits ranging from product liability to workers compensation.
US Citizens - Who want someone else to "Buy American" as they walk out of K-Mart, Target, or Walmart after purchasing their China made USA flag shirt, and picnic supplies to celebrate the 4th of July; and who vote back in their local representatives using the same "someone else" logic.
Unions - who took an 'us' versus 'them' approach beyond practicality until it was too late.
Those that will read this and say - "Not MY lawyer!" "Not MY politician!" "Not MY cause!"

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 7/26/2007 9:50:44 AM >

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 24

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 9:47:48 AM

ElectraGlide

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Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Maryland
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I am about to go through my 5th Union Vote since 1999. It has not got in yet. The worst workers we have surface as people trying to recruit union voters. These worst workers make a box of rocks look smart, so I will not listen to them. They have nothing to loose they say because they are a balls hair away from getting fired on poor attendance. So I cant see siding with lazy idiots. They talk about the union getting them job security and a pension. They are both thing of the past, we have a great 401K and that is all you will get anymore. On the job security how can a company stay competitive with a bunch of bums holed up in their plant that either wont show up or work when they do. So when a company gets a bunch of Extorsion Artist coming at them with a Union, I just dont blame them going to a 3rd party work force or moving to another place.

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Post #: 25

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 10:02:26 AM

popeye1250

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I think everyone in here so far touched on some good points.
And yes, "NAFTA" is no good for this country!
It's very good for big businesses.
Even foreign car companies are "backdooring" us by having plants in Mexico.
I didn't realize that Korea and Japan were in "NAFTA."
"NAFTA" was and is a COLOSAL MISTAKE!
We need to get out of it. Not "fix" it, not "adjust" it, just end it.
Funny logic that big companies have, sell us cheaper stuff that many can't buy because of falling wages.
You can see where that's headed and it ain't good!
Big companies will be the "last" to suffer of course but when it's their turn.........
What they're doing is cannabilising their own markets. (The U.S.)
It may work for a few years but when it stops working, watch out!
GHW Bush was and is full of shit.
"Globalisation" is just a name for big business to have it's cake and eat it too; for a while. It will come back to bite them on the ass bigtime. And that means severe reccessions, or worse.
Ross Perot and Pat Buchanan were absolutely spot on when they called this nonsense, "a race to the bottom."
These "trade deals" that "our" govt. gets us into are not for "us", they're for big business.
But, how can Ford Motor Company expect to increase prices on their vehicles when the people they want to sell them to make less money each year?
To all the reasons above I would add one of the "7 deadly sins",
GREED.

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Post #: 26

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 10:14:21 AM

Pulpsmack

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From: Louisiana
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Everybody.

The biggest responsible is the apathetic consumer. Thanks to the consumer, living a life free of Cheap Chinese products would require careful research and doing without certain "necessary" items. If the consumer actually drew the line in the sand, capitalism would be their bitch. But the only universal standard that Americans can all band together on is "low prices... Always, low prices".

Next are the labor unions. Necessary evil? Perhaps, given corporate practices, but all I have to say is "UAW and the Big Three"

Right alongside the unions is the politicians/lawyers. Same principle: a necessary evil that has run amuck and threatens to be the greater of the two evils.

Then the management. They are half exonerated because people will jump ship on them if somebody else offers lower prices on cheap chinese crap, or because the unions threaten to cripple and bleed them dry. BUT the other half (pre-emptive strike, execution without dealing with the unions for long term strategy) is profit motivated. Just as consumers should be beaten badly with an electrocuted mackerel for their devout beliefs in "low prices", management deserves the same for zealous adherence to profit maximization. Profit is necessary. More profit is better than less profit. But there is a law of diminishing returns with maximizing profit, and it astounds me how blind these people are to that.

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 7/26/2007 10:16:47 AM >

(in reply to ElectraGlide)

Post #: 27

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 10:34:27 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

But, how can Ford Motor Company expect to increase prices on their vehicles when the people they want to sell them to make less money each year?

Popeye,
You are applying US bias to your question.

Currently the US is the intended market and point of sale focus. Why assume it always will be or is in the long range plans of companies such as Ford?

Hypothetically, what if there was an emerging large country with a billion potential customers looking to upgrade from oxen and bicycles. Just suppose that country didn't have the emissions standards, or 'crash impact' standards, or mandatory safety standards such as seat belts and air bags. Create a wild scenario where lawyers and the possibility of law suits was so remote that it didn't need to be considered. What if that market would be similar to the one that made Ford a name?

Think there is some profit involved removing all those hurdles, selling a basic car for basic people, with a cooperative government that sees some aspects of capitalism as a path to replace the US as a global power economically as well as militarily? Of course Henry Ford's marketing quote may have to change. However; "You can have any color you want, as long as you want red.", has the similar ring to it.

Hypothetically - of course...

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 28

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 10:38:45 AM

meatcleaver

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This is captalism at work. I find it incredible that someone should ask the question. American workers like most workers in the west are expensive and largely inefficient, third world workers are cheap and efficient (especially because they exist on subsistance pay and there is a surplus of labour). If a CEO can't work out from that how to maximize a company's profits, that company needs a new CEO. If a country isn't going to lose manufacturing jobs to the third world then a country has to make products that consumers are willing to pay a premium for. It's possible, Germany somehow manages it but even they have outsourced some products to countries with cheaper labour costs.

You can't be a capitalist and protectionist at the same time but you can be a socialist and protectionist though

. The only way forward for those who believe in capitalism is embrace globalisation, lose the production of old industry and create new innovative industries that procuce products and services consumers are willing to pay the high price demanded of having an expensive work force.

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Post #: 29

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 10:45:12 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The only way forward for those who believe in capitalism is embrace globalisation, lose the production of old industry and create new innovative industries that procuce products and services consumers are willing to pay the high price demanded of having an expensive work force.

......from that follows that the end state of capitalism is the dissolution of nation-states.....one world, one marketplace.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 30

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 10:48:36 AM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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Pulp, true and this affects all of society not just the people on the bottom rung of the ladder.
People now "lawyer shop."
That is they compare fees before "buying."
I always get a fee structure before hiring a lawyer. You'd be surprised at the difference in fees between lawyers!
And there's plenty of them too, 53 pages of lawyers in my Yellow pages here.
Twenty years ago when people were making decent money it wasn't a problem.
Now, when you have a lot of people only making $20-$40k per year and an overabundance of lawyers the days of "$200 per billable hour" are comming to an end.
I found a lawyer to close on this condo 3 years ago by shopping around and it came out to about $80 "per billable hour" when I looked at the closing documents.
Still a lot considering the amount of lawyers in this area.
In short, if the lawyer's clients are making less money, the lawyers will make less money too so "Globalisation" isn't good for them either.
Back in the 80's and 90's people could walk in off the street and get a good paying job. Most of the people I knew in hi tech were making $80-$100k back then.
That's not the case anymore.
And what would happen if we started importing millions of lawyers from India? You're talking major meltdown in incomes for them!
And, all this "Globalisation" and "free trade" deals aren't so the consumer will have cheap goods, they're in place so companies can make more money.
So tell me who has more influence in our govt.The People or big business and lobbyists?
That needs to change!
As far as I'm concerned Clinton and Bush have been an absolute disaster for the working man (and woman) in this country!
Just because I'm "comfortable" and do alright financially doesn't mean that I don't want to see other people doing well too.
Whoever the next President is, they need to get us O-U-T of "Nafta" completely, stop outsourcing and start bringing manufacturing back into this country.
And if any big business has "a problem" with that they should be denied access to our market.

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RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 10:51:17 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And, all this "Globalisation" and "free trade" deals aren't so the consumer will have cheap goods, they're in place so companies can make more money.

....welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism. Token economies are fine and dandy until people forget that the tokens in and of themselves are meaningless.

(in reply to popeye1250)

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RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 10:59:49 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The only way forward for those who believe in capitalism is embrace globalisation, lose the production of old industry and create new innovative industries that procuce products and services consumers are willing to pay the high price demanded of having an expensive work force.

......from that follows that the end state of capitalism is the dissolution of nation-states.....one world, one marketplace.

States are already dissolving into confederations. One world, one market place is the logic of capitalism.

But then global problems such as global warming and migration due to overpopulation can't be solved by national states in isolation so even in that way they are losing teir reason to exist.

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Post #: 33

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 11:48:57 AM

asubmissiveheart

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Joined: 11/20/2006
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The government for making it so profitable, the big businesses that don't care anything about the
American workers only the bottom line, and the American citizens for not raising hell.

(in reply to ElectraGlide)

Post #: 34

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 12:33:36 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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teh wealthy 1% MAKE THEIR CASH off of us peons. think you are afluent??? ha!

note- seniors cant buy thier rxs from canada cos it isnt "safe" big business can go global- but if a consmuer does- it is likely illegal.

trickle down economics is the big guys pissing on you

(in reply to asubmissiveheart)

Post #: 35

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 1:53:35 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

This is captalism at work. I find it incredible that someone should ask the question. American workers like most workers in the west are expensive and largely inefficient, third world workers are cheap and efficient (especially because they exist on subsistance pay and there is a surplus of labour). If a CEO can't work out from that how to maximize a company's profits, that company needs a new CEO. If a country isn't going to lose manufacturing jobs to the third world then a country has to make products that consumers are willing to pay a premium for. It's possible, Germany somehow manages it but even they have outsourced some products to countries with cheaper labour costs.

You can't be a capitalist and protectionist at the same time but you can be a socialist and protectionist though. The only way forward for those who believe in capitalism is embrace globalisation, lose the production of old industry and create new innovative industries that procuce products and services consumers are willing to pay the high price demanded of having an expensive work force.

Meat, that isn't capitalism at all.
I don't know what you're talking about but in "Capitalism" if you can't get labor you raise the wages and benefits until you can get labor.
What you don't do is commit Federal Felonys by hiring illegal aliens.
You have to be in the U.S. *Legally* to work here!
Personally, I want to see my country be *much* more Isolationist!
Going the other way and being Interventionist just doesn't work, does it?

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Post #: 36

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 5:58:53 PM

came4U

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From: London, Ontario
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I was living in the US at the time Murooney passed NAFTA..so ain't my fault.

Trudeau, now there was a Godly creature. He wouldn't have passed it..pot legalization, yes, but not free trade., unless it was free trade of pot.

I'm still trying to figure out what GST is.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 37

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 6:13:50 PM

Sinergy

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Unions brought good paying jobs with benefits, a 5 day work week, an 8 hour work day, etc., to this country and much of Europe.

With this money paid to these employees, they were able to buy things like houses, SUVs, Golden Retrievers, etc.

Corporations got cranky because they were paying too much money to their employees. Coincident with a labour surplus, Corporations were able to break the backs of most unions in this country, or else offshore those jobs.

Then the corporations, such as American automobile manufacturers, complain because nobody in the United States can afford to purchase their products.

So they insist they are forced to off-shore their jobs to remain profitable.

They lay people off. Other companies lay people off. People cannot find jobs. Wages fall. Corporations post significant drops in profits.

It is a downward spiral.

It is rather obtuse and ignorant to blame the corporate profit issues on unions.

If American corporations pay people a living wage, people can afford to buy things. If American citizens learn how to do something, they can do those jobs. They can purchase their Hummers. Everything stays tickety-boo.

I blame the multinational corporations offshoring American jobs and trying to sell our standards of living to the Chinese and people in India. They dont care whether America becomes a third world country, their goal is corporate profit.

Sinergy

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Post #: 38

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 7:23:35 PM

Lucylastic

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GST= Getting Screwed Tax
What pisses me off, is if I order something from the outside world, as soon as it hits customs on the canadian side, its slapped with GST and PST PLUS a brokerage fee...gawd help you if you get it fedexed or UPS ed into the country anything from 29-69 dollars for a brokerage fee? BAH So much for NAFTA
OK moan over
Lucy

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Post #: 39

RE: Who do you blame for American Jobs getting shipped ... - 7/26/2007 7:33:03 PM

Level

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For perusal:

http://www.economist.com/business/displayStory.cfm?story_id=9546338&fsrc=nwlptwfree

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