quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Well said, lt.

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ORIGINAL: thornhappy

(fast reply)
One issue I see with the question is that if the prayer comes true, it's attributed to your respective good deity.  But if it doesn't come true, then it's because 1) wasn't sincere, 2) asked for the "wrong" thing, 3) due to your respective evil deity, 4) or wasn't supposed to happen.  Basically it's "bad on you" at best and "bad on Satan" at worst.

How do you explain all those athletes that pray on the field?  If they complete a pass or tackle, it's due to their belief in God. But you don't see them offering  up thanks for missing a play, or losing a game. 

This a personal peeve of mine - that the Infinite would give a hoot what happens in a professional sport.

thornhappy

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Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

(NYT March 31, 2006  )

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ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Fast Reply:  I haven't read the entire thread, because it seemed to degenerate into a "YES IT DOES" / "NO IT DOESN'T" argument with a smattering of anti-Xtian and other religious shots.  So far, it seems to me all this thread proves is the Godless and the Godminded both have a surfeit of self-righteousness.  Big surprise.

If you are really interested in this topic AND have an open mind, you might consider that the question of the efficacy of prayer has been heavily studied and debated for the last 1/2 of the 20th C and the beginning of this one.

The current key study is recent, and fairly evocative.  Prayer seems to have no effect on illness, and might even contribute to worse outcomes.  This excellent short summary from the NYT begins:

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Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

(NYT March 31, 2006  )

Another excellent summary of current research and debate is here. 

I teach a unit about this (as part of Science, Scientific Proof and Law) in one of my law school classes (yes, at a Jesuit-run law school!)   One thing I find interesting is the pro-prayer people, up until 2006, argued that the modality of "double blind" studies couldn't work, because the person being prayed for had to know they were being prayed for; after the Templeton Heart study was released with the correlative finding that prayer was associated with worse outcomes, some of the pro-prayer folks changed their tune on a dime; now effective prayer has to come from loved ones, friends, etc.

Of course I  would be remiss in not citing the Byrd study here -- a slightly older study that famously finds that prayer DOES work for cardiac patients.  Dr. Randolph Byrd in 1998 published his fairly famous study about the mitigating effects of prayer on a population of fairly sick CCU patients.  I direct you to this link because not only does it reprint Byrd's study, but it give some very good pro- and con- writing as well, notably Gary Posner's critique/reply.

I don't know if prayer works for the sick person.  I do know that it makes those who pray feel better.

E.

Edited to make the links pop!

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I've always been under the impression that the idea was to submit to god's authority rather than request presents. 'Reminds me of when I used to push notes up the chimney at Christmas asking Santa to bring me a bike and a pair of football boots.

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ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Prayer seems to have no effect on illness, and might even contribute to worse outcomes.  This excellent short summary from the NYT begins:

quote:

  
Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

(NYT March 31, 2006  )

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ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I've always been under the impression that the idea was to submit to god's authority rather than request presents. 'Reminds me of when I used to push notes up the chimney at Christmas asking Santa to bring me a bike and a pair of football boots.

What exactly does this mean...."when I used to push notes up the chimney?".....You English are a queer lot....Did you actually place your wish list to Santa inside the chimney....It is awful dark and I doubt that he would even notice such notes on his way down......Or perhaps this is some sort of English code that refers to you cramming  your notes to Santa inside of your rectum?....Either way, it is just another reason why my brothers and sisters across the pond are truly disturbed.

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ORIGINAL: Level

Gent, the problem with asking that is, as luci pointed out, it opens up that person to ridicule, for their faith. And many consider such information to be personal, anyway.
 

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ORIGINAL: Level

After praying, I went over to my laptop, and the very first website I came to was that of a Dr. Richard Bernstein.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: Level

Gent, the problem with asking that is, as luci pointed out, it opens up that person to ridicule, for their faith. And many consider such information to be personal, anyway.
 

A person with anything remotely like a believable case would come forward with it regardless of privacy. After all, people desperately want to prove the existence of a god in order to make their submission tangible, as per the amount of energy expended in arguing the case.

I think there's a very good reason for people to subscribe to this divine, guiding force. 'Just that I think it's nothing to do with the existence of a god.

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ORIGINAL: Level

After praying, I went over to my laptop, and the very first website I came to was that of a Dr. Richard Bernstein.

The above seems to be the meat of a prayer being answered. You're entitled to your explanation, of course, Level, but there are many explanations for finding that website and the least rational one is that a god provided guidance.

Regardless, god is an interesting concept because it helps to explain much of human behaviour.

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ORIGINAL: FullCircle

If this is now moving onto does god exist or are any of the religions relevant can someone explain to me the following. If god created us in his own image was he just practicing what he looked like when he first created the dinosaurs? He wasn’t sure maybe if he had a long neck and tail or if he was capable of flight?