RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work?

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philosophy -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 12:23:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level I mean, is it less wrong, because he "meant well", as opposed to someone else that commited the same act, just because they're evil, or insane? Truth, and right and wrong, are far less prevalent than some might think, but I still contend they exist. ...you probably recognise where i'm going with this Level [:)] i'm basically recycling the same argument used to 'logically' prove that black is white. That old canard uses the idea of relative values to 'disprove' the possibility of absolute ones. However, in this case, where it becomes complex is that there are clearly two sorts of absolute values.....those that are absolute to an individual, ie a quakers pacifism......and those that appear to apply absolutely to all, ie gravity. (and even gravity is arguable, according to some). We tend to seek the latter type of absolutism, but equally tend to find the former...in my own humble opinion, of course [:D]

popeye1250 -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 12:27:32 PM)
Benji, I've never bought an unneccessary gadget from Indonesia. And what's with this "volunteering in Africa b.s.?

BBBTBW -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 12:32:39 PM)
quick hijack Full Circle...what is the name of that font you use on your sig line? ok back to our regularly scheduled debating

FullCircle -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 12:43:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBBTBW quick hijack Full Circle...what is the name of that font you use on your sig line? ok back to our regularly scheduled debating The font is all Arial and you can copy it in from Charactermap. Remember that if you use Arabic characters the cursor direction will jump from left to right to right to left in some cases. It’s a challenge to say the least. I’ve found if you compose it in word and then paste it into the web based box all the characters get jumbled up for some reason so you have to do it in small fragments.

popeye1250 -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 12:45:25 PM)
I met Jee-sus once! He looks like that guy who used to be in the Subaru commercials, "Joe Subaru." His uncle looks like George Burns.

losttreasure -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 1:36:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy My dearest lev, Not to sound too harsh...But where was God as you gained the excess weight and as your health declined? Where was He supposed to be? God gave Level a mind and a body... and free will. It is Level's responsibility to make decisions that affect his life and his health. It is Level's responsibility to take action, as well. Would you take responsibility if an adult child of yours ate irresponsibly, did not exercise properly, and suffered ill health as a result? Who is to say what God's actions or inactions were the night that Level prayed for help? Perhaps nothing more than to provide an ear so that Level might talk himself past the distress that I'm sure he was feeling. Perhaps divine intercession so that Level's attention was caught by the one website that would offer him hope. Who knows? Of course Level was the one who took action. I think it's highly presumptuous for man to make a mess of his life and then expect God to come along and fix things with a wave of His hand. Imagine what kind of a world we would live in if every plea and prayer to God was answered with that kind of deistic action. Imagine a world of "spoiled children".

Tinman1960 -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 1:43:17 PM)
Does prayer work ? Yes - for those that believe it does. If nothing else, the belief that prayer may work gives one hope - that in itself maybe help at a time when hope is needed. Does God exist ? It really does not matter one way or another - as long as there is hope... Does God answer prayer ? Is no answer an answer or maybe I just didn't hear what I wanted to hear - again, it doesn't matter as long as there is HOPE.

thornhappy -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 1:53:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle quote: ORIGINAL: Level I absolutely agree. Truth is truth, and we need to be open to it, wherever it leads. I would not put Creationism up as a scientific truth, as of yet, but I'm satisfied that there are those at least looking in that direction. I don’t want to offend anyone so if you are not open to religious debate please don’t read the following. I only worry because I think of kids today being told that things in the bible have been proven and tested to the same extent that some scientific theories have. It kind of blurs the lines and I’m glad it wasn’t around when I grew up or it would have confused me. Most scientific theories are superseded like Newton’s laws were based on time being a constant and Einstein’s works have shown this not to be true. Although Newton’s laws are adopted for most cases because they still apply for most things we are concerned with. I wish religions showed the same kind of evolution and people concerned with them were as self critical as the scientists are of their works. If you want to know the second thing about God the first thing you have to admit to yourself is that you don’t know anything about him/her/it. This is a hard position for most to accept but I think it is true because of the following: Everyone above has spoken of a God capable of answering prayers because they have all been told he is all powerful and if he fails to answer it’s because he has his own reasons for not doing so. No one considers the fact he is unable to. Therefore in searching for answers you have already set limits outside the problem if in fact god isn’t all powerful. I’m sorry the above is a long response but I’m trying to get across my fears and it’s the easiest way I can phrase it. just as a science note, Newton's Laws work just fine for non-relativistic speeds and until you get down to very small things (say on the atomic level). Otherwise you need Einstein and quantum theory. If you plug large distances into quantum equations, they reduce to Newton's laws. So the old dude knew what he was doing.... thornhappy, who used to work with semiconductors

slaveluci -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 1:56:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent A person with anything remotely like a believable case would come forward with it regardless of privacy Not so. Trying to relate a beautiful story of an answered prayer to individuals who will do absolutely nothing but mock it is "casting pearls before swine." It's a pointless waste and the swine will only turn on you. I have some stories of my own and those of friends that I could relate. If I thought for one second they would be listened to and/or believed, I would share them. But recounting them to people who seem to delight in mocking - I wouldn't defile the beauty of them by bothering to tell them. Saying it's not "a believable case" just because I won't spell it out here to be made fun of is simply not true. quote: After all, people desperately want to prove the existence of a god in order to make their submission tangible, as per the amount of energy expended in arguing the case My submission is tangible whether you or anyone else EVER believes in the existence of the God I worship. I won't argue the case because it's a holy thing to me, not something to snipe with each other about. I don't want or need to prove God's existence to you or anyone else. I believe in His existence, in His wisdom, in His goodness, and in His omnipotence. That's all I need to do - not argue or prove a case. I hope that everyone would know the peace and comfort I do in trusting Him but not all will. You have every right to deny the existence of the God I worship. But please don't fool yourself into believing I have to argue and/or prove He exists to make my "submission tangible." That's hogwash, Gent.............luci

thornhappy -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 1:59:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tinman1960 Does prayer work ? Yes - for those that believe it does. If nothing else, the belief that prayer may work gives one hope - that in itself maybe help at a time when hope is needed. Does God exist ? It really does not matter one way or another - as long as there is hope... Does God answer prayer ? Is no answer an answer or maybe I just didn't hear what I wanted to hear - again, it doesn't matter as long as there is HOPE. I think prayer or meditation, if nothing else, can help focus and calm the mind, which may enable someone to find solutions to their problems. As religions to, I just think there's no "one true way" in religion, just as in WIITWD. thornhappy

popeye1250 -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 2:55:05 PM)
And who decides "what" you can pray for? Of course I'm going to pray to hit the lottery, what do you think I'm going to pray for God to give me the clap? To me anyway it would be a "good" thing to hit the lottery! It would be a "good" and funny thing if Ted Kennedy's pants fell down in public. Fuck all that "world peace" crap! Now those are prayers that never work! And what good is "world peace" if I can't drive a Cadillac or Mercedes? No, I think I'll pray for what I want and other people can pray for what they want. Here's a question for you, what if I do hit the lottery? Does that mean that prayers "work" or that some randomly drawn numbers just happened to match the ones I picked for no rhyme or reason?

NorthernGent -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 3:15:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci If I thought for one second they would be listened to and/or believed, I would share them. But recounting them to people who seem to delight in mocking - I wouldn't defile the beauty of them by bothering to tell them. Saying it's not "a believable case" just because I won't spell it out here to be made fun of is simply not true. Evening, Luci, as we're being honest with each other...............we both know that there are people who will have the discussion with you without it degenerating into a farce (people on this thread). From where I'm standing, there is nothing tangible to support the case for a god, and it will always come back to "I have my faith, that's good enough for me". In my book, faith does not equate to being believable. quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci I won't argue the case because it's a holy thing to me, not something to snipe with each other about. I don't want or need to prove God's existence to you or anyone else. I believe in His existence, in His wisdom, in His goodness, and in His omnipotence. That's all I need to do - not argue or prove a case. 'Not a problem, here. Let's be honest, though, any case will be based on an interpretation driven by your personal faith. quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci But please don't fool yourself into believing I have to argue and/or prove He exists to make my "submission tangible." That's hogwash, Gent.............luci Feel free to do as you please. There's a point of view on the table. Take it or leave it.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 3:23:44 PM)
When I fell off my motorbike, in that eternity before I hit the ground, I offered a prayer that all would be well. I only lost one arm and both legs so I am convinced that yes , prayer works. Bad taste or the truth ?

kittinSol -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 3:31:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia so many times i've seen and heard people say something like: "You're in our prayers". but, honestly, does it REALLY work? Yeah, sure. Sending general positive vibes in order for things to go smoothly for someone is cool. Nothing wrong with it and it can certainly do no harm. So, it works... cos it can't fuck anything up. It's like a placebo in pharmacy: sometimes it works, sometimes, it doesn't. As to whether when it works, it's thanks to some great big bearded Father Christmas lookalike up in the sky, well... Hell no [:D]. It works in mysterious ways. A bit like the rhytm method of birth control.

Tinman1960 -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 3:35:51 PM)
I whole-heartedly agree.

kittinSol -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 3:42:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Counterpoint Bullshit, Jesus, Those Are Obviously My Footprints By Jim Steinhauer Sorry to have to break it to you, Jesus, but those are obviously my footprints. Look closely. See how those footprints have that wavy tread pattern on the bottom, just like my docksiders? If they were yours, they'd make a sandal mark, like the footprints next to mine a little farther up the beach when I was going through better times. See the footprints at the time of my divorce? You'll notice that the sandaled footprints drift off from the docksider ones. They lead to that picnic bench over there, the one with the cigarette butts scattered all over. It appears that in my darkest hour, instead of carrying me, you sat on a stump and had a couple of smokes. Real helpful, Jesus. Real helpful. Sure, the sandal footprints came back when I got that big job promotion, but right at the point where my son Tommy died, they veer off again. Actually, now that I look again, it seems like there's an unusually large distance between each of the sandal-wearer's footprints around the time of my son's death, as if the person were actually running away. I'm sorry, Jesus, but your whole story about carrying me during my worst moments just doesn't gibe with the facts. Besides, you'd certainly think a person would remember being carried by the Son of God, right? That's a pretty memorable thing, wouldn't you say? Well, either I've got amnesia, or you're a liar, because I don't recall ever being toted around by the Messiah. The only thing I do remember about my worst moments on the path of life is the horrible feeling of plodding along the cold sand all alone while icy rain fell in sheets and chill winds assailed me. So thanks, Jesus. Thanks a bunch. You were really there for me when things got tough. Asshole.[image]http://www.theonion.com/content/themes/onion/assets/terminator.gif[/image] Courtesy of the onion.... ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

michaelGA -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 3:46:30 PM)
a quote from George Carlin to think about Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll to to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!

kittinSol -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 3:55:15 PM)
What the latest prayer study tells us about God. By William Saletan Posted Thursday, April 6, 2006, at 2:37 AM ET Brother, have you heard the bad news? It was supposed to be good news, like the kind in the Bible. After three years, $2.4 million, and 1.7 million prayers, the biggest and best study ever was supposed to show that prayers . . . help patients recover after heart surgery. But things didn't go as ordained. Patients who knowingly received prayers developed more post-surgery complications than did patients who unknowingly received prayers—and patients who were prayed for did no better than patients who weren't prayed for. In fact, patients who received prayers without their knowledge ended up with more major complications than did patients who received no prayers at all. Check out this wonderful site for yourself: www.yoism.org Those with a saintly disposition, stay clear: I am battling enough lawsuits as it is, and I'm not willing to litigate over injured feelings. So, there you go: prayer's bad for you. The next cretin who prays for my eternal soul will get a 6 inch Freelance calf leather stilleto up their sorry arse [8D]. But then again... some of you deviants out there would like that, which would totally defeats the purpose.

slaveluci -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 5:42:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 And who decides "what" you can pray for? Why you do, of course. quote: Of course I'm going to pray to hit the lottery, what do you think I'm going to pray for God to give me the clap? Popeye, you kill me[:D]. This made me burst out laughing. quote: To me anyway it would be a "good" thing to hit the lottery! I'm sure you'd find many ways to enjoy all that money. quote: It would be a "good" and funny thing if Ted Kennedy's pants fell down in public. You really have a beef with Teddy, don't you? Geesh...there are worse folks in the world, you know?[;)] quote: Fuck all that "world peace" crap! Now those are prayers that never work! Yes. That is one problem that does seem to persist. I'll give you that. quote: And what good is "world peace" if I can't drive a Cadillac or Mercedes? Now that's a question I've often asked myself....lol.... quote: No, I think I'll pray for what I want and other people can pray for what they want Sounds fair to me. quote: Here's a question for you, what if I do hit the lottery? Does that mean that prayers "work" or that some randomly drawn numbers just happened to match the ones I picked for no rhyme or reason? I'm not the one who can answer that. When you win, you'll have to ask the "Big Guy" as you so formally refer to Him[8D].........luci

slaveluci -> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? (7/29/2007 5:55:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent we both know that there are people who will have the discussion with you without it degenerating into a farce (people on this thread) A few, of course. But a public forum full of mockery and hatred toward what I believe is not the place to have such a discussion. I already have such discourse with several of the ones who are open to someone else's way of thinking in PM's. It's not something I'm ever going to throw out for the scoffers to make fun of, here or anywhere else. quote: From where I'm standing, there is nothing tangible to support the case for a god I know. Which is one of the very reasons I wouldn't share such stories with you. I don't think you are open to changing your mind so why discuss with you something you think is untrue and illegitimate? That would be a true waste of both our time. I respect that as I respect your right to doubt what I believe in. quote: it will always come back to "I have my faith, that's good enough for me" Yes it will. I don't see anyone but Christians being asked to "defend" their beliefs here. Heaven help someone who posts something considered anti-Muslim or anti-Semitic or anti-pagan. But whole threads are started for the express purpose of ridiculing "loony," "bugfuck" Christians. I don't have to defend my faith and neither does anyone else. No more than you have to defend your beliefs. My faith is "good enough for me." If I have to prove something scientifically before I believe, that's not faith at all. And besides....it can't be proven that there's a God. You prove to me that there isn't One[;)]. quote: In my book, faith does not equate to being believable I find that very sad but you are, of course, free to doubt forevermore. quote: Feel free to do as you please. There's a point of view on the table. Take it or leave it And I would say the same to you, sir. We are both free to do as we please. But I somehow (and other Christians) end up having to defend what I do and, often, getting clumped in with the "bugfuck," "loony" Christian right. The scoffers don't. There is more than "a point of view on the table." I'll take mine and you take yours and let the other feel all warm and fuzzy with what they believe (or doubt). Debating it is not going to change either of our minds because I'm never going to convince you that God exists and you'll never convince me that He doesn't. Respectfully............luci

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