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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 6:02:42 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Yeah, sure. Sending general positive vibes in order for things to go smoothly for someone is cool. Nothing wrong with it and it can certainly do no harm

Neither can prayer.
quote:

So, it works... cos it can't fuck anything up. It's like a placebo in pharmacy: sometimes it works, sometimes, it doesn't

Once again, sounds alot like prayer.
quote:

As to whether when it works, it's thanks to some great big bearded Father Christmas lookalike up in the sky, well...
Hell no

Agreed....I don't think He looks anything like Father Christmas.  More like a bright light, maybe?
quote:

It works in mysterious ways. A bit like the rhytm method of birth control.

Well, that's one way of putting it.  I would say sometimes prayer is answered and sometimes it isn't answered (at least in the way we wish).

As always.....I respectfully agree to disagree here, KittenSol.  I'm sure you're surprised...lol......luci


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To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 6:05:34 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

What the latest prayer study tells us about God.
By William Saletan
Posted Thursday, April 6, 2006, at 2:37 AM ET

Brother, have you heard the bad news?
It was supposed to be good news, like the kind in the Bible. After three years, $2.4 million, and 1.7 million prayers, the biggest and best study ever was supposed to show that prayers . . . help patients recover after heart surgery. But things didn't go as ordained. Patients who knowingly received prayers developed more post-surgery complications than did patients who unknowingly received prayers—and patients who were prayed for did no better than patients who weren't prayed for. In fact, patients who received prayers without their knowledge ended up with more major complications than did patients who received no prayers at all.

Check out this wonderful site for yourself: www.yoism.org

Those with a saintly disposition, stay clear: I am battling enough lawsuits as it is, and I'm not willing to litigate over injured feelings.

So, there you go: prayer's bad for you. The next cretin who prays for my eternal soul will get a 6 inch Freelance calf leather stilleto up their sorry arse . But then again... some of you deviants out there would like that, which would totally defeats the purpose.



Studies like this are a dime a dozen.  I've read about several who indicated exactly the opposite.  I think you can find "evidence" to back up either side of the debate you trying to "prove."  As you stated in the earlier post about good "vibes," prayer can't hurt.  If it works or if it doesn't, it sure can't hurt.............luci

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To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 6:08:50 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		You offend yourself when you confuse the Christian-right extremists with run-of-the-mill Christian spiritualists; and you offend others when you confuse those that laugh at Christians (legitimatelly - Jesus Himself would have a giggle, I'm sure) with those that post anti-semitic, hateful, politically orientated rants.

Luci, most of us respect your faith: but you have developed a tendency to rave about it which is off-putting. Your enthusiasm isn't conducive to making me think you're secure in your beliefs.

Which must go against what you wish to convey to others? Just be happy with your faith, woman!

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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 6:13:09 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		kittin, I would point out that there is raving from several sides on CM, as well as various hateful, politically-motivated rants.
 
I find that luci does a fine job of defending her faith, but I'm sure that's due to my prejudiced disposistion

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 6:19:03 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Not sure about that, but I have to say I find the constant need for self-reassurance rather trying. Proving a point is fine, but after a while of constant rabitting on about it, it gets... demanding.  It doesn't mean I'm not trying... still, that's how it's starting to feel. A tad tedious. I suppose it's a question of taste: one doesn't discuss taste. It's rather like religion.

I mean, Lev, I know you're Christian; yet, you don't keep on going on about it. You have your faith, and you're rather quiet about it. And I find that admirable. True belief doesn't demand constant exposure. Surely, it's between one and oneself.



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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 6:22:23 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
You offend yourself when you confuse the Christian-right extremists with run-of-the-mill Christian spiritualists

I don't have them confused.  Many others apparently do.
quote:

you offend others when you confuse those that laugh at Christians (legitimatelly - Jesus Himself would have a giggle, I'm sure) with those that post anti-semitic, hateful, politically orientated rants

Again, no confusion.  Anti-Semitic or anti-Christian is all the same to me.  Laughing at Christians is ok but laughing at Jews, Muslims, etc. isn't?  I think one is as wrong as the other.  And if that "offends" you, maybe you have an inkling of how offended I sometimes feel at the "laughing."
quote:

Luci, most of us respect your faith: but you have developed a tendency to rave about it which is off-putting. Your enthusiasm isn't conducive to making me think you're secure in your beliefs

I have done no "raving."  I have simply stated my viewpoint in response to those of others such as yourself.  Show me where I said angry, hateful "raving" words or dismissed anyone else's right to not believe.  It didn't happen.  And, frankly, I don't care what you think about my "security" in my beliefs.  You are incapable of having a calm, civil discourse with me.  You have to either ridicule or dismiss everything I say.  That isn't conducive to making me think you have the ability to appreciate any point of view that doesn't mirror yours.  Say what you will about me but I have not "raved" and I have NEVER dismissed or ridiculed you/your beliefs or those of anyone else.

Kittensol,
Just once, I beg you, stop sniping at me long enough to try to see my point.  I am very secure in my beliefs and very happy with them.  That is exactly why it bothers me to see them mocked.  I am not the one who confuses "extremists" with "spiritualists."  It is only here when posts are made doing such confusing that I chime in to say that not every Christian is an extremist.  I have said this over and over because I believe it and because it's obviously not sinking in with some. 

If some crazy-ass Jew does something, do we all ridicule the entire Jewish faith?  Osama Bin Laden and his ilk aren't causing anyone here to hate all Muslims.  And when someone says anything like that here, they get shredded (which they should).  Yet whenever Christians are discussed, it's always as if we're all these loony, right-wing nuts.  I know not everyone believes that, but many do.  That's the only reason why I point out again and again that we aren't.

I'm doing no more "raving" than all you guys who take such glee in mocking.  It's not raving at all to calmly present a different viewpoint which I have done time and again lately in threads concerning Christians.  I haven't "raved," called anyone names, or in any way denigrated them or their beliefs.  That's more than I can say for some.

You proudly proclaim that "hell, no" prayer doesn't work.  I say it does.  Why am I raving and you aren't?  You speak of security and being happy with one's beliefs.  What does it say for people who spend so much time laughing and mocking those of others?  I think that shows some insecurity in it's own right.  As I've said many times before, if you don't believe as I do, good for you.  But don't feel like you have to mock what you don't agree with or understand...........luci



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To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 6:28:00 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
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From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

kittin, I would point out that there is raving from several sides on CM, as well as various hateful, politically-motivated rants.
 
I find that luci does a fine job of defending her faith, but I'm sure that's due to my prejudiced disposistion

Thank you, Level.  I haven't raved nor ever spoken hateful rants against anyone's beliefs and you know that (as does anyone who actually takes time to read my posts).  I enjoy defending my faith but it does get "tedious" as KittenSol said to HAVE to defend it so often against mocking.  No, I'm not forced to post but I feel the desire to when things are said which are so mean and untrue and that lump all Christians together as nuts.  People get into hair-pulling, name-calling fights over politics and kinks around here but I'm "insecure" and "unhappy" because I'm willing to speak up (without hate, mocking, and anger) for my spiritual beliefs?  There's something sad about that.  It's impossible to engage in a civil discourse with her about this because she is totally dismissive of anything I say.  The scoffers constantly rant about how loony Christians are.  That's why there's so many threads on it.  When I chime in to respond (as often as they post that mess), then I'm being tedious and I'm going on and on.  If there weren't threads every single week about crazy, loony Christians, I would never say a word.  It's bad when only one viewpoint has the right to speak without being called "tedious."  Thanks for you support, Level.  It's much appreciated...........luci

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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 6:33:31 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		If you're trying to make me feel sorry for you because you chose to be a Christian, it's failed: I have no sympathy. It's your choice. Be quietly happy about it. Put up and shut up: didn't Jesus advocate turning the other cheek?

Bend over, luci  !

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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 6:34:42 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
I find the constant need for self-reassurance rather trying

As trying as I find constant ridicule of Christians?  I doubt that.  And there is no self-reassurance needed.  I know where I stand. 
quote:

Proving a point is fine, but after a while of constant rabitting on about it, it gets... demanding.  It doesn't mean I'm not trying... still, that's how it's starting to feel. A tad tedious. I suppose it's a question of taste: one doesn't discuss taste. It's rather like religion

Yes, I find it pretty distasteful to (not discuss) but to argue religion.  But hey, when there's a post (or more) nearly every week about loony, psycho Christians, I'm going to speak my piece just like everyone else.  Just because I'm one of only a handful that ever defends the Christian faith here, doesn't mean I should just stop doing so, as trying as you find anything I say. 
quote:

I mean, Lev, I know you're Christian; yet, you don't keep on going on about it. You have your faith, and you're rather quiet about it. And I find that admirable

It is admirable.  I don't "go on and on about it" in my day-to-day life because I don't run into people everywhere I go who ridicule it.  If I did, I would defend it then as I do here.  You never seem to grow tired of people going "on and on" laughing and mocking Christians.  It's only when I defend it that I'm going "on and on."  Pretty biased.
quote:

True belief doesn't demand constant exposure

There wouldn't be a need for "constant exposure" if it wasn't being "constantly" mocked.  As often as it has been, I have "exposed" my beliefs.  Show me where I have EVER started a religious/spiritual discussion in efforts to debate or argue.  I never have.  I only reply to posts someone else makes on the issue.  So, if the "constant" ridiculing threads stop, so will my "exposure" of my opinion.  Not until...........luci

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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 6:39:59 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
If you're trying to make me feel sorry for you because you chose to be a Christian, it's failed: I have no sympathy. It's your choice. Be quietly happy about it. Put up and shut up: didn't Jesus advocate turning the other cheek?
Bend over, luci  !

I don't want sympathy from you for any reason.  I don't need it.  I did choose to be a Christian and I'm proud of it.  No "feeling sorry" necessary.  It is my choice and I am very happy about it.  As long as you and others feel the need to mock Christianity, I will not be "quietly happy" about it, I'll be vocally happy about it. 

I'm not going to shut up anymore than you are, dear.  And I sure don't see that happening.  Jesus did advocate turning the other cheek but He didn't suffer fools gladly either.  Neither do I.  Go ahead and continue to mock.  You're looking classier and more intellectual by the minute..........luci 

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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 6:47:58 PM   
NControlofU


Posts: 204
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		It doesn't hurt!  I'll take as many prayers as people want to offer me, thank you.  But I also never forget that God doesn't give us what we think we want.  He gives us what He knows we need.

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

so many times i've seen and heard people say something like: "You're in our prayers". but, honestly, does it REALLY work?

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)
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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 6:55:51 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NControlofU
It doesn't hurt!  I'll take as many prayers as people want to offer me, thank you.  But I also never forget that God doesn't give us what we think we want.  He gives us what He knows we need.

Beautifully stated, NControlofU.  I agree.  If I remember correctly, your slave, joy, has made some really interesting posts about her faith/beliefs that I have always thoroughly enjoyed.  You two seem to be sympatico on that.  Congratulations.  I haven't seen her around as much lately so be sure and tell her I've been missing her posts.  Thanks, luci 

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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 7:04:37 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Not sure about that, but I have to say I find the constant need for self-reassurance rather trying. Proving a point is fine, but after a while of constant rabitting on about it, it gets... demanding.  It doesn't mean I'm not trying... still, that's how it's starting to feel. A tad tedious. I suppose it's a question of taste: one doesn't discuss taste. It's rather like religion.

An awful lot of people would include politics in that group of unmentionables.

I mean, Lev, I know you're Christian; yet, you don't keep on going on about it. You have your faith, and you're rather quiet about it. And I find that admirable. True belief doesn't demand constant exposure. Surely, it's between one and oneself.

I appreciate that, kittin.  Have a good night, my friend.




_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 7:06:12 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Thank you, Level.  .........luci


You're welcome, luci. Have a good night.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 7:09:03 PM   
allie1027


Posts: 19
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline 		Hi

I generally dont post on the boards...I'm more of a reader than anything but this has spiked an interest.   I haven't read all of the posts because I honestly don't have time to read 100 of them.  I'm just going to give you my two cents...take it for what it's worth. 

I've reently gone through was my priest says is a 'crisis of faith' .  I have been a practicing catholic my whole life (not a very long time..only 19 years) but those years have been full of health..family..and emotional issues.  Some may be saying that I'm only 19..and what type of issues really could have happened..but believe me...if I didn't have prayer..I wouldn't be here.  I'm not a person that goes to church on Sunday to say that I went.  I'm not a person that pretends to believe in God.  I am a person that truly does believe. 

A little over two months ago I wasn't sure if I believed what I did because it has been basically shoved down my throat since 1st grade...or it was because I really believed it.  I think that faith and religion is different for everyone.  Prayer...is different for anyone.  Unless you believe in it..unless you know in your heart that God will help you...all he can do is wait.  He waits for when you're ready to accept him into your life.  He will listen...he may help you to see..help you to believe...but until you really accept it...I dont believe prayer can help. 

Just a thought.

Allie

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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 7:20:53 PM   
missjan


Posts: 123
Joined: 7/12/2006
Status: offline 		beautifully said...Bravo

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 7:24:58 PM   
allie1027


Posts: 19
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline 		thank you jan

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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 7:32:56 PM   
NControlofU


Posts: 204
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you luci.  I'll be happy to tell joy that you said hello and that you were thinking about her.  Your strength in your faith is inspiring and anyone who is offended by it is only showing their own bigotry toward anyone whose beliefs are outside their small realm of thought.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: NControlofU
It doesn't hurt!  I'll take as many prayers as people want to offer me, thank you.  But I also never forget that God doesn't give us what we think we want.  He gives us what He knows we need.

Beautifully stated, NControlofU.  I agree.  If I remember correctly, your slave, joy, has made some really interesting posts about her faith/beliefs that I have always thoroughly enjoyed.  You two seem to be sympatico on that.  Congratulations.  I haven't seen her around as much lately so be sure and tell her I've been missing her posts.  Thanks, luci 

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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 7:34:22 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Is it not fair to say that Meditation and Prayer are forms of the same thing?  Meditation has been shown tohave all sorts of positive effects. 

A lot of arguments on this and lots of other topics degenerate, into the form of misdefining what is at issue and then arguing against it.  It is a very human and natural thing to do, though it is not legitimate debating and is a dishonest tool.  I have seen so many threads operating on this level, with people from all sides of all issues falling into it.  I try not to, but probably have at times.

But God is not Santa Claus....No serious Theologian of any faith would argue it.  That would be like arguing computers do not work because you can't use them to stargate to other planets.  Even Magic/Satanists (what ever term, I don't mean wicca) think they have to Pay God(spirits) for intercession, just asking doesn't cut it.  Prayer/ Meditation (I include Yoga type meditation in this also.  Side note, ever watched a Muslim Prayer?  It is a modified Yogic Vinyasa.  Do that 5 times a day and I garuntee it will have an effect)   is just a tool God has given us to help get through the day and stay on track. 

I always thought Atheletes prayed to help focus thier minds and ask to give thier best performance.

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RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/29/2007 10:40:53 PM   
azzmaster


Posts: 864
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		great answer aslaveslife... how do humans escape logic n2 that mumbo jumbo has always eluded me

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Profile   Post #: 140
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