Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? Page: <<   < prev  7 8 [9] 10 11   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 9:31:05 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline
Does Cthulhu handle grammatical errors too?

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

Oh Great Cthulhu, please improve the spelling of those whom would debate in favor of prayer working.  Should You in Your infinite, world consuming wisdom see fit to not grant this prayer of me, Your humble servant, then please teach them to use spell check.

(in reply to aSlavesLife)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 9:34:58 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline
A slaves life, you are misdefining the nature of God, and the purpose of prayer.

"Anyone that allows harm to come to a child is by my definition evil. If someone that has the ability to prevent it deliberately allows it, they are not only evil, but monstrously so in my opinion. And trying to defend a monster of that caliber strikes me as tantamount to trying to defend Hitler. "

Would this include allowing a child to go to the park, where he could get killed or skin a knee.  Would it include allowing a child to date, perhaps having thier heart broken?  Wouldn't this require sheltering the child from all possible danger?  Its simply impossible.

I am not a "christian", and think they have a limited yet usefull insight.  By Definition no conceptualization of God could  be perfect.  The 2000 years of Mans interference has diluted the Message brought to us by Christ significantly.  The same has happened in all religions.

But a more correct view of the relationship between God and Man (according to the religious/spiritual "Juedo Chriatians) places a huge degree of importance on the "freewill" aspect.  That is the Key of all the Abrahamic Faiths.  You can choose the nature of your relationship to God.  Sin is not an action, it is a state.  the opposite of Grace.  Litterally it means being unconnected to God, Spanish "with out".  The actions that are misdefined as Sin are the result of being seperated from God's Grace.  "God does not say obey me or suffer in Hell".  He says "Please do not seperate yourself from me, and that there are some serious consequences for doing so". 

It is utterly useless to pray to a Santa Claus God for Ice Cream....And it is kind of pointless to grossly misdefine Theology and argue against the mis definiton.

Back to the begining of the thread.  Michael,  I am terribly sorry for your loss.  I hope you can find happiness again.  You get to make the choices.  I hope your online persona, is just a small aspect of your real self where you really focus your grief, and you are more positive in your day to day life, ie that this is a form of therapy/group session.  But it is a really bad idea if it is, people here are not coming to help, and many comments will be harmfull.  There are others in your life affected by the loss of your Son, and they need you to be there.  Modern Pyschiatry and drugs can help you get there (sometimes), Faith and Prayer works also (sometimes). 



(in reply to jadedmiracle)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 9:36:13 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline
So you were a consultant for the Sopranos and you teach in a law school?

Interesting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

I teach a unit about this (as part of Science, Scientific Proof and Law) in one of my law school classes (yes, at a Jesuit-run law school!)

(in reply to Emperor1956)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 9:46:21 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


Posts: 4253
Status: offline
i'm thinking of doing what Georgia Carlin does and pray to Joe Pesci. might get the same results he does...about 50/50...LOL

_____________________________

Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to aSlavesLife)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 9:48:53 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


Posts: 4253
Status: offline
quote:

Back to the begining of the thread. Michael, I am terribly sorry for your loss. I hope you can find happiness again. You get to make the choices. I hope your online persona, is just a small aspect of your real self where you really focus your grief, and you are more positive in your day to day life, ie that this is a form of therapy/group session. But it is a really bad idea if it is, people here are not coming to help, and many comments will be harmfull. There are others in your life affected by the loss of your Son, and they need you to be there. Modern Pyschiatry and drugs can help you get there (sometimes), Faith and Prayer works also (sometimes).


i was never informed until AFTER my son's funeral and thus was not able to attend. i have never even seen his grave either. my family sent me one of the artificial purple roses from his gravesight, which i keep tapped to the top of my monitor as a constant remind of my loss. i will never forget him.


_____________________________

Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:09:51 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
luci, no where in this thread have I seen the words 'bugfuck' or 'looney'

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1172780/mpage_1/key_bugfuck/tm.htm#1173129

quote:

In fact so far all I have seen are diverging views

Yes.  Diverging views with some mockery thrown in for good measure.  That's cool.  That's how it goes sometimes on here.  It's just that it would be nice for those debating me to show the same courtesy I have about not belittling their belief or lack thereof.  Some do show it, others do not.   As much as I have disagreed with any of them, I have never felt the need to laugh at what they consider important or sacred. 
quote:

I don't know how else to say this but you are so hyper defensive that you invite what you see as being lumped in with the bugfuck etc

Call it hyper-defensive or whatever, camille.  It's not going to change my thoughts.  If someone comes on here and calls any group as a whole (Jews, Muslims, blacks, lesbians, transsexuals - you name it) "looney" or "bugfuck" and then proceeds to ridicule them, there's an uproar.  Unless it's Christians.  Whole threads are started for the express purpose of ridiculing them and that's so cool and funny.  Well, I simply disagree.  Whenever that's done, I respond.  That's not being hyper-defensive.  That's saying my piece on a subject that's important to me just like everyone else is entitled to do.
quote:

I like your posts and you seem like a pretty good person but... not every person who is not a christian is against you

I never said anyone was "against me."  I'm not a conspiracy freak.  What I have said is what I just restated above.  Why is it cool to mock Christians and not other groups?  That's my point, nothing about anyone being "against me."
quote:

 Maybe against your religion, but not you

Well, as important as it is to me, that's hard to separate.  I've seen you get quite irate yourself when the subject of disabilities/illness arises.  You don't like the implication that you aren't just as valuable as a sub because of your health problems.  If I came on here once a week and started a thread about what a joke it is to have a slave who couldn't serve in all ways because of physical problems, you'd rip me a new one and I don't blame you.  That's how I feel about the weekly laugh-at-the -loony-Christians bit.  Tedious and trying, indeed.
quote:

Unfortunately I have seen you overreact a lot of times when the word god is used in the forums

Overreact is your interpretation.  I don't believe I have overreacted but I have definitely reacted when God is mocked.  Just a personal pet peeve of mine.  I am far from the only one who has ever felt strongly about an issue and always responds to threads about certain issues.  You wanna read some overreacting, read the political and abortion threads.  Geesh!
quote:

There IS a fundamental christian right movement but I have not seen anyone here say that you are a part of that, yet you defend yourself as if they are

First of all, I don't have to "defend" myself about anything.  I only speak my point of view.  Secondly, who says I'm not part of the "fundamental Christian Right movement?"  And what if I were? 
quote:

Maybe if you stopped trying to defend against something only you see will make a difference?

Again, not defending.  Speaking my viewpoint.  Secondly, there won't be any difference.  The only diffference that anyone seems to want is that the threads continue as they do and I never comment about them.  Sorry, I have as much right to speak my mind as anyone else does.  Of course I'm the one always considered "defensive" because I'm the one (of many others, I'd guess) whose beliefs are being laughed at.  If I came on once a week and started a thread for the express purpose of ridiculing others' beliefs, they might appear a bit "defensive" as well.  But that will not happen.  There's no one whose deeply-held spiritual beliefs bother me so much that I have to publicly attack them (the beliefs).
quote:

 Don't assume that someone not liking the far christian right is saying that they don't like you?

I never have assumed that.  I hope people "like me" but if they don't, so what?  I'm not going to keep my viewpoints hidden so they will.
quote:

Sigh. I don't feel like I am explaining this well at all. If you are upset at my words then I utterly failed with my point lol.

Not upset at all.  I just don't understand how anyone feels I'm somehow wrong for stating my own beliefs and maintaining that those who don't believe them, should at least respect them and not ridicule and mock the God and religion that's sacred to me.  Most don't but some do.  Oh well, that's how the cookie crumbles.  As long as such behavior is approved of and laughed at, it's just encouraged.  I'm sorry you can't see my real motivation rather than just seeing me as a defensive paranoid who thinks no one likes me.  That's not the case at all.  Thanks for your reply, camille.............luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 7/30/2007 10:15:30 AM >


_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:12:35 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


Posts: 4253
Status: offline
oh, look...Sears is having a sale...LOL

_____________________________

Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:12:45 AM   
QuietlySeeking


Posts: 297
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking


Let me give you a different example.  You have a UM.  That UM requests a firearm, but you know that the UM is not mature enough to have it.  Would you, as a loving, caring parent, provide that UM with the firearm?  Of course not.



And what on earth does this have to do with the effectiveness of prayer? Is it dangerous to ask for good health? Is it dangerous to ask for a job in order to feed your family? And how do you get a loving, caring parent out of any of this? If we are talking the Judeo/Christian god, we are talking about a being that says " Obey me or suffer torture for all eternity! ". Not exactly what one thinks of when talking about loving, caring parents.


Using your same logic, what on earth does a malfunctioning radio have to do with the effectiveness of prayer?  I am simply providing a basis for discussion (an example much like your own) that illustrates a different point-of-view. 

By the way, He also says "Love thy neighbor as thyself.", "For I so loved you that I gave My only begotten son, so that you would have everlasting life."  (paraphrased, but the intent is the same).


quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking
If you accept that God is infinitely more intelligent/loving/mature than a human being,  then "not" answering prayers can be logically explained. 


Bad assumption. I have seen no evidence for any god or goddess, let alone one matching the description you have given.

I am speaking from an "if" standpoint. I had to provide this as the assumption on which MY conclusion is based.  In no way did I extend this belief to you, but to provide a conclusion without the assumptions on which it was based would be wrong.


quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

If the consequences of answering that prayer will bring greater harm than good, then it is a simple decision, wouldn't you agree?


Are you honestly saying that stopping a child from being injured would do more harm than good? It seems that you are making a lot of assumptions here, with little or no foundation for them. You assume a god, you assume various virtues and abilities for the assumed god, you assume some mind reading mechanism for hearing prayers, you assume the ability to judge right from wrong in an assumed deity that supposedly is incapable of doing wrong, which by the way is a serious contradiction, and then go on to assume that children that don't get their prayers answered are somehow better off this way.


Since you've chosen the parameters with this argument...YES, I can see a situation where stopping a child from being injured would do more harm than good...but then again, I also believe in allowing children to experience those childhood hurts so that they don't become adult-hood hurts.
Yes, I assume a personal relationship with an omniscient judging being who has my best interests at heart...much like my son assumes that I am an omniscient judging being (although sometimes he would disagree that I have his best interests at heart)!

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

Anyone that allows harm to come to a child is by my definition evil. If someone that has the ability to prevent it deliberately allows it, they are not only evil, but monstrously so in my opinion. And trying to defend a monster of that caliber strikes me as tantamount to trying to defend Hitler.


I will make the logical ASSUMPTION from your statement that you equate Christians and Nazis.  Interesting point!?!

(in reply to aSlavesLife)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:15:33 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Not upset at all.  I just don't understand how anyone feels I'm somehow wrong for stating my own beliefs and maintaining that those who don't believe them, should at least respect them and not ridicule and mock the God and religion that's sacred to me.  Most don't but some do.  


.....Luci, you're taking flak for being a christian, possibly because christians have given out so much flak. The Danish cartoons of Mohammed were defended as a freedom of speech thing by christians. However they 'ridicule and mock the God and religion that's sacred to' many people. i don;t think you'd defend that double standard, but while so many christians do then the whole faith is tainted with hypocrisy.... just as much in error as Islam is currently tainted wrongly with terrorism.

(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:18:38 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


Posts: 4253
Status: offline
anyone wanna go to Home Depot?

_____________________________

Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:19:02 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Not upset at all.  I just don't understand how anyone feels I'm somehow wrong for stating my own beliefs and maintaining that those who don't believe them, should at least respect them and not ridicule and mock the God and religion that's sacred to me.  Most don't but some do.  


.....Luci, you're taking flak for being a christian, possibly because christians have given out so much flak. The Danish cartoons of Mohammed were defended as a freedom of speech thing by christians. However they 'ridicule and mock the God and religion that's sacred to' many people. i don;t think you'd defend that double standard, but while so many christians do then the whole faith is tainted with hypocrisy.... just as much in error as Islam is currently tainted wrongly with terrorism.

Yes sir.  Total ignorance and lack of respect for others' beliefs does indeed go in all directions.  I don't uphold any of it.  Thinking all Muslims are terrorists makes about as much sense as thinking that all Christians are self-righteous, looking-forward-to-the-Armageddon looney's.  Neither is true.  Good point, philosophy.............luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:20:32 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

anyone wanna go to Home Depot?

Yeah, joke.  You started this mess.  Of course I want to go to Home Depot.  Master is there now........luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:21:35 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


Posts: 4253
Status: offline
well, it WAS an a good idea at the time, but...like all creations...this one got out of hand, fast

_____________________________

Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:25:28 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
There's such a thing as sharing a few ideas and taking them or leaving them. There's no obligation to change stance

Good.  So, have you "left" all of my ideas or did any of them make a dent?  I see your point, you know, even if I don't agree.  I hope you see mine.
quote:

Ultimately, your idea is based on more shakey foundations than mine because you are asking me to believe that an abstract notion is, in actual fact, a universal truth. This is dictated by your personal interpretation of the world, moreover, and it's not a leap of faith to suggest your personal experiences

As I mentioned earlier, prove God doesn't exist.  You can't do that anymore than I can prove He does.  It's all just about equally as "shaky," in my opinion........luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:25:51 AM   
QuietlySeeking


Posts: 297
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
Sent you a PM, michaelOfGeorgia.

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:27:54 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Then you will also have to agree by this logic that the Aesir exist. 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:28:18 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


Posts: 4253
Status: offline
responded

_____________________________

Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to QuietlySeeking)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:32:03 AM   
SnugasaBug


Posts: 49
Joined: 6/11/2007
Status: offline
There was a  news article, (nope can't state this source) of a survey of a group of nuns praying for others. Their results showed no improved results from one test group to another.

However, I think a missing factor was that the recipients of the prayer did not know they were being prayed for. Don't know MichaelofGeorgia, if that would have proven anything though. It was hard to prove or disprove....for that group, for their parameters.

What prayers I am more interested in, are private ones, designated for me or my family or friends. I think they do work. I prefer to err on the side of believing.  But I think the brain, is a contributing factor. Ever hear of visualizing or meditation? Many claim to believe in those too. The brain is a very powerful tool. We use it quite a bit I hear in WIITWD.

Snug

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:32:42 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia
well, it WAS an a good idea at the time, but...like all creations...this one got out of hand, fast

Didn't it now?.  Great topic though.  I know it works for me and many others.  Lots of folks ridicule the whole idea.  It's a wonderful world with lots of different thoughts.  Viva la difference!............luci 

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? - 7/30/2007 10:34:39 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


Posts: 4253
Status: offline
what really annoys me is when people tell me they will pray for me. i tell them not to waste their time or effort. it doesn't work for me or on me.

_____________________________

Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 180
Page:   <<   < prev  7 8 [9] 10 11   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Honestly...does prayer REALLY work? Page: <<   < prev  7 8 [9] 10 11   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094