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RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/29/2007 7:24:56 PM

feastie

Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
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owned is correct. The parties involved should have many deep discussions on everything in the world regarding a D/s or M/s dynamic before that dynamic is ever entered. Even after that, if there is a question, everything should be suspended until the two are on the same page. It is essential for maintaining trust and not creating an atmosphere of resentment. This includes punishment.

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Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to twistedkytten)

Post #: 21

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/29/2007 7:36:57 PM

LaMspeach

Posts: 794
Joined: 12/4/2004
From: Philadelphia area, PA
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Once again we agree, Owned... Thanks for saying it so much better then I could.

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peach ~ LordandMasters devoted alpha slave
"Only when the year has grown cold does one know that the pine and cypress are the last to wither"

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 22

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/29/2007 7:44:52 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaMspeach

Once again we agree, Owned... Thanks for saying it so much better then I could.

We can just keep "ditto'ing" each other all over the board, whaddya think?

(in reply to LaMspeach)

Post #: 23

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/29/2007 7:56:44 PM

hereyesruponyou

Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
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I'm of the thought that if punishment is a part of the dynamic and is therefore given out only when necessary then to reject it is to reject the relationship. If it is a truly established relationship then it should be able to be discussed, but in the end the dominant makes the final decision in whether it is expected to be carried out or not, then the sub/slave makes the ultimate decision in whether the relationship continues by accepting the dominants decision or rejecting it, thereby most likely rejecting the original dynamic...

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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 24

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/29/2007 8:45:19 PM

nyrisa

Posts: 1830
Joined: 11/20/2006
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I have never been in any relationship, since reaching adulthood, that incorporated any kind of punishment. It has just never come up in any way. If there were conflicts (and, yes, there have been a few doozies!) it was handled by talking, explaining, sometimes a stinging verbal dressing down, and I seem to have managed to remain a fairly sunny dispositioned woman, not running amok in any way.

If the punishment issue was discussed and agreed upon at the start of the relationship, but at some point the sub rebels against it, that would seem to indicate that something has changed. Either one of the parties is not seeing the situation clearly, or the feeling of safety is not there, or some other road block has occured.

Before doing anything drastic or permanent, some meditation time for both parties would be a good idea, then discuss what happened. Perhaps some life factor or hormonal crisis caused a temporary meltdown. Or perhaps that mode of puishment needs to be changed/replaced or eliminated. If it could not be worked out to suit the trust levels of both parties, then there is a deeper problem that needs to be addressed in the dynamics, and this is just a symptom.

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A true lady takes off her dignity with her clothes and does her whorish best. At other times you can be as modest and dignified as your persona requires. Robert Heinlein

The last thing I want to do is hurt you...but it is still on my list.

(in reply to CelticPrince)

Post #: 25

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/29/2007 9:34:58 PM

Damocles809

Posts: 532
Joined: 7/12/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince
But little is said as to the course of action when the punishment is rejected.

Any thoughts?

Yeah, talk to her about it. It's about what the two of you want, not what the lifestyle mandates.

And if she one of those idiots who thinks it's not domly to talk about problems, then the relationship will be short at best.

(in reply to CelticPrince)

Post #: 26

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/29/2007 10:26:35 PM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
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OK so if I order a punishment is to be administered then how without rejecting my dominance can you reject the punishment?
When you answer that then you have DaddyZ's point handled.

Post edited to put it a better way

When a punishment is ordered then one submits to punishment or one does not submit to it.
Not submitting to the punishment breaks the power exchange. It is refusal of an order.

< Message edited by Archer -- 7/29/2007 10:43:59 PM >

(in reply to Damocles809)

Post #: 27

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/29/2007 10:39:25 PM

robertolapiedra

Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince

In reading profiles when I have time I always come across the issue of punishment, the sub needs it! earns it! uses it as guidance! etc.

But little is said as to the course of action when the punishment is rejected.

Any thoughts?

CelticPrince

Hello CelticPrince. The sub does not "need" punishment. The sub "needs" to defer and obey, discipline and self-discipline.

Some do not punish, they use a reward system. Some use the stick and the carrot. Some only the stick. Some only the carrot.

Punishment is not play. If you have "play-punishment" aspects in "consequences to disobedience", you may have "play-disobedience" also, as seen in the movie "The Secretary" (provocation to receive pleasure punishment).

Some do not make a distinction between "error" and "misbehavior" (attitude). Some do not make a distinction between "the need to be punished" and "the need to punish". Discipline in a power exchange is necessary, especially self-discipline but there are many ways of tending that part of the garden.

You do not use punishment for "guidance", it is a control tool, same as a reward is a control tool. When you reject punishment, you are rejecting control. Normally there would be an unknown limit issue in the disciplinary aspect of the dynamic. This is usually resolved with proper communication, as the "tool box" is very full for experienced people, and other ways exist of obtaining proper behavior (if the sub really wants to submit). Hope this helped. RL.

(in reply to CelticPrince)

Post #: 28

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/29/2007 10:45:23 PM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra
Some do not punish, they use a reward system. Some use the stick and the carrot. Some only the stick. Some only the carrot.

I'm not contradicting you RL, but I also would like to say that there are also some who use neither. Some relationships don't need punishment or rewards to function effectively.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to robertolapiedra)

Post #: 29

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/29/2007 11:22:29 PM

Archer

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Joined: 3/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra
Some do not punish, they use a reward system. Some use the stick and the carrot. Some only the stick. Some only the carrot.

I'm not contradicting you RL, but I also would like to say that there are also some who use neither. Some relationships don't need punishment or rewards to function effectively.

Not sure I'd agree that any relationship is free of carrot and stick. They might be hidden carrots and subtle sticks but I would contend that they are still there. A smile may be all the reward one needs, a disapppointed look may be all the punishment one needs, but they remain carrots and sticks.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 30

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/29/2007 11:29:07 PM

mistoferin

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Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Not sure I'd agree that any relationship is free of carrot and stick. They might be hidden carrots and subtle sticks but I would contend that they are still there. A smile may be all the reward one needs, a disapppointed look may be all the punishment one needs, but they remain carrots and sticks.

I see carrots and sticks as things that are dangled in front of or held over another to manipulate their behavior. While smiles and disappointment surely occur in every relationship, and they can certainly effect behavior, I don't see them as tools used to manipulate.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 31

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/29/2007 11:30:30 PM

hazenut

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Joined: 3/12/2007
Status: offline

Okay I almost feel like I NEED to post something on this topic. I agree totally that trusting your dom to make the right decison on punishing you and how they go about it is a huge part of a good d/s relationship. I almost hate to admit this, but I've argued about being punished before. Since then I've learned never ever to do that again. That really is where trust comes into play...and how can you submit to someone you don't trust? I think in that particular case it was just me still learning. Oh and I learned real quick after that. There really is no discussion/arguement. Just take it. I do have one concern on this and I've been thinking about it for a few days now because I have a nice little punishment coming to me. Trust, experience and even how well your dom knows you...how can they be sure that the punishment they choose is right for you? I'm so scared about what is going to happen. I'm sure that's how I should feel, hey it's a punishment for a reason. I just am not sure that it's right for me. Everyone is different...physically and mentally. So just how can a dom be sure that something that has been very effective with a past sub/slave will draw the same conclusion with the present one? I do trust him, actually very much, but there's still a reason for concern just based on what I just stated. Maybe I should just start a new damn thread with this one...sorry to ramble. I just figured that I could touch on this a bit. So for me rejecting a punishment in MOST cases is a reason for a very deep talk or even possible separation, but not all of them. Alright that's the end of my sharing...I think I might have said too much........

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 32

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/29/2007 11:44:29 PM

robertolapiedra

Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra
Some do not punish, they use a reward system. Some use the stick and the carrot. Some only the stick. Some only the carrot.

I'm not contradicting you RL, but I also would like to say that there are also some who use neither. Some relationships don't need punishment or rewards to function effectively.

Hello Mistoferin. We agree. Some dynamics are "willful" based and the dom is not expected to correct disciplinary issues. However when things are not functioning, he always has the option to pull the plug on the D/s and force the issue at the communication level when things get less "willful".

The downside for a dom is that this is verrrry scary, as many fear the risk of things not starting up again, or that major "unfavorable" negotiations would ensue. On the sub's side of things, there may be fear of being rejected and he/she may over concede stuff and make things even more difficult for him/herself in the future.

If the "pleasure" aspect (physical-psychological) of a punishment based discipline dynamic is "minimal", it should not be needed in my opinion. I would tend to think it would be more of a nuisance or an irritant in the flow of things. People using punishment in that context usually are starting out (using one the more "standard popular models" of D/s) or are traditionalists who use it (or use the threat of it) rarely, or "ritually" (apology ritual followed with some form of redress) in a more formal dynamic.

In my case, I have a small "stick" and a very big "carrot" for the day to day stuff because we are 24/7 TPE. Sometimes I can't find the stick so I beat her senseless with the carrot. When things get serious? I prefer to pull the plug, go somewhere nice and have a heart to heart.

Thanks for pointing out the missing flavor. RL

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 33

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/30/2007 12:02:06 AM

robertolapiedra

Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hazenut

I'm so scared about what is going to happen. I'm sure that's how I should feel, hey it's a punishment for a reason. I just am not sure that it's right for me. Everyone is different...physically and mentally. So just how can a dom be sure that something that has been very effective with a past sub/slave will draw the same conclusion with the present one? I do trust him, actually very much, but there's still a reason for concern just based on what I just stated. Maybe I should just start a new damn thread with this one...sorry to ramble. I just figured that I could touch on this a bit. So for me rejecting a punishment in MOST cases is a reason for a very deep talk or even possible separation, but not all of them. Alright that's the end of my sharing...I think I might have said too much........

Hello hazenut. Based on what I have read, if I was your dom we would take a break from D/s and sort things out. In your case, I think you are not entirely "consenting" to the disciplinary aspects of your relationship and your dom should know this.

Punishment has to be accepted as being part of your D/s relationship "before" you are actually punished. Maybe this aspect was under negotiated before you consented to your style of D/s. Better to to be honest about this, and re-evaluate your position.

Hope this helped. RL.

(in reply to hazenut)

Post #: 34

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/30/2007 12:13:15 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra
Hello Mistoferin. We agree. Some dynamics are "willful" based and the dom is not expected to correct disciplinary issues. However when things are not functioning, he always has the option to pull the plug on the D/s and force the issue at the communication level when things get less "willful".

The downside for a dom is that this is verrrry scary, as many fear the risk of things not starting up again, or that major "unfavorable" negotiations would ensue. On the sub's side of things, there may be fear of being rejected and he/she may over concede stuff and make things even more difficult for him/herself in the future.

I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean RL. I've spent a whole lotta years in power exchange relationships where punishment wasn't part of the dynamic, but I don't think I have ever experienced a Dominant pulling the D/s plug or times when it was not functioning. Communication is always open and ongoing. I don't know, sometimes I read these boards and I feel like an alien from another planet.

In my relationships I can't say that I have always been perfect. I have screwed up...I'm actually pretty good at it. But when I have I can't think of any times that I did so intentionally or maliciously. I also don't tend to repeat my screw ups. For me, I am in a power exchange relationship because that is where I want to be with a partner who I love and ultimately want to please and be found pleasing by. Willful disobedience isn't something that I contemplate or partake in. It would seem rather silly to me to do so, considering that I involve myself in power exchange relationships because it is what fulfills me.

When I screw up I generally recognize that I have done so pretty quickly. If I need it to be pointed out to me it really doesn't change much because the end result is the same. I take responsibility for my behavior, I fix any resulting damage to the best of my ability, I make my apologies and I learn the lesson that the incident provides me the opportunity to learn. We're all human and we all screw up sometimes. I can't imagine any punishment that would motivate to learn my lessons more than my own desire to live harmoniously with my partner.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to robertolapiedra)

Post #: 35

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/30/2007 12:39:27 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince
In reading profiles when I have time I always come across the issue of punishment, the sub needs it! earns it! uses it as guidance! etc.
But little is said as to the course of action when the punishment is rejected.
Any thoughts?
CelticPrince

I would skip over profiles of dominants who emphasize punishment
as a major component of the D/s relationship they seek.
To my way of thinking pain play should never be confused
with punishment. If this sort of profile is referring to pain play, not all submissives are masochistic; so no, we ‘all’ do not need it, or earn it.
Pain play for sadists and masochists is just that; play!

If the dominant is talking about honest punishment, the fact they high-light it in the profile would cause me concern. Speaking for myself, once the rules have been discussed and agreed upon, I strive to be obedient and pleasing; therefore I do not seek punishment to guide me.
Such a profile would make me wonder if said dominant would set me up for failure in order to punish. In that instance, yes I would refuse punishment.

To contend that submissives in general ‘need it, earn it and use it for guidance’ is to suggest that we are not capable of fulfilling the obligations of submission without the threat of punishment. It may be called for on occasion, but it is my belief that punishment is serious business and should never be taken lightly by either party. If I was in a dynamic where it has been made clear that behaviors XYZ were punishable offenses, then I most certainly would do my best to avoid those behaviors.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to CelticPrince)

Post #: 36

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/30/2007 12:45:25 AM

catize

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Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

I can't imagine any punishment that would motivate to learn my lessons more than my own desire to live harmoniously with my partner.

You said it much better than I did!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 37

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/30/2007 12:55:10 AM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
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You have to know your submissive well. Think before you come up with the punishment so that she is likely to accept what you do. You should never choose a punishment that is likely to be "rejected."

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 38

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/30/2007 1:29:41 AM

themischievous1

Posts: 151
Joined: 4/3/2005
From: San Antonio, Texas
Status: offline

"Punishment."

The word alone signifies a sort of parent/child dynamic in my mind, one in which one party has to be right and the other party has to be wrong. The authority figure in this kind of dynamic is given power over and the right to mete out something that is sure to be unpleasurable for the one not in authority.

In this kind of relationship, with this type of exchange, I remember feeling like a child. I remember being put into the exact same position as a child. I can remember actually speaking to my own child in the way I was spoken to in that dynamic and it absolutely gave me pause. And pause I did for quite some time after that. lol.

I realized that I am not a child. I don't want to be treated like a child. I want respect. I want to be treated with respect in a mature way because I am an adult woman who deserves respect and understanding, not punishment. I am a grown up woman now, not a child. I need a partner who will treat me and relate to me as an adult in all of my circumstances.

A punishment dynamic no longer interests nor seems appealing to me.

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 39

RE: Punishment / rejected now what? - 7/30/2007 1:32:35 AM

taintedgypsy

Posts: 228
Joined: 2/10/2007
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In any new relationship I enter in the future "punishment " is going to be way up there as a priority of discussion and will probably be a deal breaker for me if concensus can not be found.

This is not a critism of my previous Dom who I continue to have the utmost respect for and is one of the most ethical men I have ever had the pleasure of meeting.

Punishment went really wrong twice, both times I submitted to them, both times I tried to accept what was deemed by Him appropriate, however both times led to severe resentment from me and real damage to trust. This was not his fault, I was simply not dealing well with life and both of these punishments were like last ditch efforts to try and pull me back into line without either of us really relising how deep my emotional turmoil was. There are many reasons why this relationship ceased to e but these two events figre very much for me and I am very concerned about any future punishment in a relationship as I have a deep fear of punishment now. Again this fear is from within and was already there unrecognised before the events. I place no blame on the Dom involved. He does not have a crystal ball that will tell him the future, and I would not have predicted the outcome to be so servere so it is unfair to think he should.

My point is that I actually think I would have been better off if I had refused ... even if it had ended the relationship then and there, it may have saved the both of us a lot of pain. Doms are human, as are subs and we all make mistakes, but when you bring out the big stick there can be some real undesirable results for all concerned.

So I offer a thought, if a sub fucked up badly and then rejects the punishment ... perhaps s/he has reasons that have nothing to do with not trusting the Dom or disrespect, and often there are fears that you can not put in to words and time is needed to truely understand where this fear came from. It would be a shame to end a relationship and throw it out the window without time to examine all the things in play at the time ... as many have pointed out the relationship and power exchange exist on many levels and punishment is only a small part ... the rejection of it may have nothing to do with breaking bonds or chalenging authority. I personally would not want to be in a relationship that placed such a huge value on punishment.

Just my 2 cents worth

_____________________________

..."Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... It is about learning to dance in the rain."

Equal Opportunity Slut (Yeah ... best of both worlds lol)

warm smiles to all

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 40

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