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RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 10:16:21 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The point is defiantbabygirl that there are men who can't do what you cited as an example and there are women who can.
Gender is not the defining qualification for it, ability and will are.
If a woman can do the job and puts in the same hours and produces the same work, I have no problem with the idea of equal pay for equal work.
The problem is when people forget important aspects of what constitutes equal work.


(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 10:16:38 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave


I dont know about the other women here but the only job a man can do that I am physically unable to do is produse sperm to fertalise an egg.

ms


You're capable of physically doing anything a man can do? Could you be a pipe fitter? Could you spend an entire day loading and unloading 100 lbs bags in the scorching heat? Could you lift a hide a bed couch and carry it up a flight of stairs by yourself? If so, you are very lucky and definitely in the minority.


I have spent entire days loading and unloading heavy boxes and bags in mid july. I worked stocking in a super market a few years back, and no I wasnt the only female doing it (though Ill admit it was close to 3 to 1 men to women) I couldnt carry a couch up steps all on my own but not cuz it was to heavy but because of the balancing (you really do need one person on each side to safey manuver large peaces of furniture without hurting yourself or droping the thing, even profesional movers have at least 2 people do it, man or women doesnt make a difference there) and I dont know any man that could do it without someone els helping. I have also worked as a Dog groomer lifting large heavy dogs on my own in and out of high tubs. No one told me not to lift them because I was a female and if they had I would have told them exactly where they should go with that idea. If you want to chose to beleave there are things you cant do because you are a women go ahead but dont put your limitations on the entire gender.

ms

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 10:20:31 PM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
You're capable of physically doing anything a man can do? Could you be a pipe fitter? Could you spend an entire day loading and unloading 100 lbs bags in the scorching heat? Could you lift a hide a bed couch and carry it up a flight of stairs by yourself? If so, you are very lucky and definitely in the minority.


I don't know about you, but I know no one who loads and unloads 100 lb bags, by hand all day in scorching heat.  If they do, they're in a union, and have more breaks than a leg in a wood chipper.  And if it aint by hand, a woman could do it.

As to carrying a hide a bed up a flight of stairs, by yourself?  Anyone who can do this will be given $1000 by me, following proof thereof.  Terms and conditions apply.

Women can do plenty of high paying jobs.  It comes down to a willingness to trade life in for school, career, not taking sick days, scheduling vacations around work, and lots more sacrifice.  Is it worth it?

You decide.

Yours,


benji

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 10:25:56 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

OK a few things absent from
the women's lib sections arguments about women getting paid less.

1. Men statisticly take of far less time than women
(can be attributed to kids most often but the fact remains)
2. Not many men are going to leave a job due to pregancy for several months.
3. Men do and take the jobs that historicly are the most hazardous.
(thus leading to a shorter life span
and more diseases directly attributable to their jobs)

I'm not against women being paid as much as men
assuming the work is equal, however,
matching salaries for matching work needs to include
the idea of total time/production.

However this quote bothers the hell outta me
"When jobs that women can do
start paying as much as jobs women aren't physically capable of doing,
maybe I'll change my mind."

To expect equal pay you have to show equal work in my mind.

The idea that someone should be paid as much without regard to
the value of the work to the customers goes entirely against my sense of logic.



Yes, there is a presumption, often, on a prospective employer's mind,
that a female of child-bearing years may... suffer an interruption in work availability...
whether that presumption is in-fact applicable to the female in particular or no.

Discrepancies in white-collar employment compensation by sex, 
are pretty indefensible (just my F-oriented opinion, of course).

As for your irritation with the comment:
"When jobs that women can do
start paying as much as jobs women aren't physically capable of doing,
maybe I'll change my mind."

I think we have drifted...

the original comment had to do with
men being expected to be sole or primary income providers
... and why women defer to/or expect this.

NOW... "diseases directly attributable to their jobs" deserves it's own thread
We worker-units are eminently expendable... view from the top, of course :P

< Message edited by kiyari -- 7/29/2007 10:35:40 PM >

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Black Water Dragon

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 10:29:41 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		Fast Reply:  It always amuses me when people make rotten financial choices in their lives, and then blame a social ill for their stupidity.

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 10:34:41 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		As a part of the "risk" for working in hazardous environments, men have negotiated higher pay.
Which is why a pipe fitter at a refinery is paid more than a pipefitter at a water plant. More risk more pay.

Are there indefensible reasons for unequal pay yes. Are there also perfectly defensible reasons, also yes.

Paternity leave has not come anywhere near as used as materity leave, when it becomes close to being used as often then it will no longer be a defensible reason for disparity.



(in reply to kiyari)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 10:44:33 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

As a part of the "risk" for working in hazardous environments,
men have negotiated higher pay.

Which is why a pipe fitter at a refinery
is paid more than a pipefitter at a water plant.
More risk more pay.

Are there indefensible reasons for unequal pay yes.
Are there also perfectly defensible reasons, also yes.

Paternity leave has not come anywhere near as used as materity leave,
when it becomes close to being used as often
then it will no longer be a defensible reason for disparity.



I do not dispute or diminish what men choose to do

Females are programmed for defense and nurturing (granted, stereotypes again)
If we would sacrifice, it ain't gonna be to make a buck

Employers subscribe in spades to these stereotypes

Those females who may be exceptions, have one monstrous uphill battle

SO, it seems to me that you are in agreement,
that men have avenues to higher pay, for what ever reasons

I do suggest, that any woman who applies for such 'high risk' opportunities
will, by virtue of prospective employers' presumptions (or worse)
not be seriously considered, not given opportunity... more often than not.

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 10:45:36 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		Archer, there are two major factual problems with your assessment that men make more money because they take jobs that involve a greater risk of physical injury and/or require more physical labor:

1.  Historically, women have taken extremely risky jobs and been paid poorly.   For example, in the 18th C. women in England worked in mines side-by-side with men, and were paid 40% less.  Both genders had lousy working conditions and high rates of dismemberment and death.

2.  More important, if your hypothesis was correct, we generally would expect to see higher pay for more hazardous work.  Yet we don't.  Men or women who do the most dangerous tasks in our society (farming, mining, road work, police and military, for example) make far less than white-collar professionals who have very little physical risk in their jobs (lawyers and commodity traders come to mind).   In fact, one might argue the more physical risk a job entails, the worse the pay.

E.

< Message edited by Emperor1956 -- 7/29/2007 10:47:30 PM >

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 10:51:27 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave


I dont know about the other women here but the only job a man can do that I am physically unable to do is produse sperm to fertalise an egg.

ms


You're capable of physically doing anything a man can do?

That's what she said and I agree with her. 
quote:


 Could you be a pipe fitter?

Teach me how and yes.
quote:

  
 Could you spend an entire day loading and unloading 100 lbs bags in the scorching heat?

Valyraen says "Yes. I've know women who do". His mother for one example. And I have done it. Look in the landscaping industry. And men don't do it every second of the day - it's bad for the human body.
quote:


 Could you lift a hide a bed couch and carry it up a flight of stairs by yourself? If so, you are very lucky and definitely in the minority.

Anyone does that is just begging for a bad back and herenia. Professional movers work in teams. All the men I know are intelligent enough to get an extra pair of hands and even with my shitty back I can move a couch with another girl helping me up and down stairs. I avoid it because I have a rotten back, but I have done it and will continue to do so when I have to.

It's not that hard DBG. It's not that hard at all. It's only a matter of being willing to do the work and doing the things that make you able to do the work.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 7/29/2007 10:52:08 PM >

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(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 10:52:10 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		I think the disagreement is more in the way you say it than what you are trying to say.

When you say men have avenues to higher pay I say all have the avenues to the higher pay however men have historicly made the choices one way and women another way.
I'm completely against the idea of disparity when parity can be established, however unless parity has been defined disparity cannot be defined.
Same job same hours same months weeks years with no extra time off should result in same compensation.
However if a man is willing to trade off family time for work promotions and a woman is not then you don't have parity to begin with.
If a woman is willing to make those same trades and a man is not then you don't have parity either.

(in reply to kiyari)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 10:54:32 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

2.  More important, if your hypothesis was correct, we generally would expect to see higher pay for more hazardous work.  Yet we don't.  Men or women who do the most dangerous tasks in our society (farming, mining, road work, police and military, for example) make far less than white-collar professionals who have very little physical risk in their jobs (lawyers and commodity traders come to mind).   In fact, one might argue the more physical risk a job entails, the worse the pay.

E.


This is true, however, the examples you give make a lot of money (when they are good) because they have a huge degree of knowledge relating to this field that most people simply don't. What you pay for with anything is not just the labor, but knowing how to do the job.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 7/29/2007 10:55:04 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Emperor1956)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 11:00:55 PM   
azzmaster


Posts: 864
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		tho i generally pay for evenings out i believe it equals out because it is more likely that a dinner at home will be cooked by the woman, and in the black community in particular women need to go to the hair dresser often thus spend more on clothes and grooming then men

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 11:03:36 PM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou
No real question here.


Just gloating?

Being male: great when it comes to public urination, but usually more trouble than it's worth.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 11:07:53 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I think the disagreement is more in the way you say it
than what you are trying to say.

When you say men have avenues to higher pay
I say all have the avenues to the higher pay
however
men have historicly made the choices one way and women another way.

I'm completely against the idea of disparity when parity can be established,
however unless parity has been defined disparity cannot be defined.

Same job same hours same months weeks years
with no extra time off should result in same compensation.

However if a man is willing to trade off family time for work promotions
and a woman is not then you don't have parity to begin with.

If a woman is willing to make those same trades and a man is not
then you don't have parity either.



Archer:

What I would point out,
is that one of either sex has not opportunity to apply themselves,
unless they can pass muster with the gatekeepers...
and women are discriminated against AT THAT JUNCTION

... this is not an assertion on my part,
as to whether women would fail or succeed IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY

...and just saying, no disrespect in the least intended, 'k?

It Is All About The GateKeeper's Presumptions

That's the Starting Gate

...just saying

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 11:15:13 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Archer, there are two major factual problems with your assessment that men make more money because they take jobs that involve a greater risk of physical injury and/or require more physical labor:

1.  Historically, women have taken extremely risky jobs and been paid poorly.   For example, in the 18th C. women in England worked in mines side-by-side with men, and were paid 40% less.  Both genders had lousy working conditions and high rates of dismemberment and death.

2.  More important, if your hypothesis was correct, we generally would expect to see higher pay for more hazardous work.  Yet we don't.  Men or women who do the most dangerous tasks in our society (farming, mining, road work, police and military, for example) make far less than white-collar professionals who have very little physical risk in their jobs (lawyers and commodity traders come to mind).   In fact, one might argue the more physical risk a job entails, the worse the pay.

E.


1. Exceptions occure and certainly disparity in wages for same work have occured. However the numbers over history show many more men working hazardous work than women. Digging back to early Industrial Revolution for a factual disagreement is reaching a bit. Sure the women were there however at what % of total workforce at the production point of the industry. The reasons for their disparity in pay may have been crap reasons or they may not have been not being there to observe the productivity of each one cannot say for sure.
Much of the work at the time was piece work payment, 5c per ton loaded 40% less pay could be based on average production resulting from differences in ability/ upper body strength etc, or it could have been actually unfair disparity not sure haven't read enough to say for sure. Generally though I agree that disparity was most likely of the indefensible type socially accepted at the time. However when averaged across the gender Compare 10,000 women and 10,000 men what work are they doing the men will have a huge number disparity in working hazardous jobs.

2. Within a labor catagory hazardous work almost always pays more sure some exceptions are available to prove the rule.
Comparing a managers pay with a line workers pay is oranges and grapefruit both citrus but not the same work or the same value to the employer. So maybe one should clarify that the rule applies only within a catagory
Within unskilled labor hazardous work pays more than non hazardous work, Within Skilled labor hazardous pays more than non hazardous, within high skill trades hazardous pays more than non hazardous. Within management hazardous work pays more than non hazardous.

Certainly there aree other things that impact pay that have little to do with hazardous or not, things like comparitive value of the product or industry.

It does not negate all disparity, however it will certainly close the gap when it is handled as a variable that has a large effect.





(in reply to Emperor1956)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 11:39:25 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Don't forget about pimps!

quote:

ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou

Few male Dom's expect females to support them financially.

(in reply to hereyesruponyou)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/29/2007 11:47:20 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Don't forget about pimps!

quote:

ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou

Few male Dom's expect females to support them financially.



Gah! ... not a BDSM context, methinks ;-))

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Black Water Dragon

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/30/2007 12:03:40 AM   
taintedgypsy


Posts: 228
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		I looked at my options when I had my daughter and decided to get a degree while she was a toddler. I was on my own with her and no way was I going to raise her on welfare ... I was horrified to find the only jobs available meant she would be in child care before and after school and in most cases at netball on a sat without me and they did not pay that well. I found this an unacceptable option. I found jobs that did not involve me working weekends and had some flexability that allowed me to drop her at the bus and be home for her when needed. I worked back when she had netball practice or youth group but I was there to pick her up, with the orchard she could catch the buss to the orchard from school if I needed to work back.

I worked in pouring rain or searing heat, I worked when I was sick and more than once I stood in a shower in tears in the morning praying for the muscels in my back to unlock, but my body got stronger and I moved on. I worked picking strawberries to pay for christmas, and picking mushrooms in putrid humid sheds. I have worked as a roof plumbers assitant, offsided on a coke truck, dug irrigation ditches, and picked citrus (150-200 kgs an hr all carried in a 30kg back on a shoulder harness). I have worked in factories and orchard sheds where you put 40 crates on a pallet every 20 mins. I have worked in quarries stemming holes with buckets of gravel, handled explosives and even shoveled turkey shit one year to make ends meet. I am 45 this month and back working in an orchard, and I just spent 3 days picking oranges at a tonn a day. I have no trouble with working physically hard and actually enjoy the level of fitness and the peace of the trees. There is something truely satisfing about driving the tractor back to the shed with full bins behind you. A sense of achievement, a definate end to the day with a smile on your face and a good days work under your belt.

I was the only woman employed in so many cases I have lost track. I have always had to sell myself to get the job and then deal with the men who would not accept a woman on the team, though there were also plenty who did. I have not done a job where the man next to me was paid more because of gender, if I could do the work than I got paid appropriately, this has never been a problem.

The problem has always been that men and women judge a woman in a traditionally male job so harshly. My hands are work worn, scarred, and callassed at different times and they are a testament to years of hard work. I have been told that my back was to muscled for a woman, that my shoulders were to square, that my body lacked softness and that I have a man's hands, ugly, work worn and hard. I was put down and really hurt by comments to a stage where I use to hide my hands when I was out ... ashamed. then there were those that presumed that I am big enough and ugly enough to look after myself, treated me with roughness and disregard because it was all I deserved. Presumptions that I was morally lax because I worked with men. Disrespected and handled because surely I must expect that working with all those men. Women who never invited me in for a cup of tea because I must be butch to do that job, or excluded me because I obviously couldn't be trusted arround their husbands. Never asked out to dinner or given flowers, they just presumed that with the job she does she be happier with a beer at the pub. For a long time I hardened and lived up to the expectations of others, building walls arround myself till I did not know who I was. After a while I started to take it to heart and felt ashamed of my strength and ability, made to feel less than female because of the jobs I took. No consideration for the fact that I had a daughter to support and that I was doing the best I knew how. I have even had Doms tell me I could not possibly be submissive because I wear steel caps and can drive a truck lol.

I walked into a hotel for dinner 6mths ago when I was working for an explosives company servicing quarries. I was wearing a long skirt and nice blouse, my hair was down and I had makeup on, one of the men I worked with choked on his beer and stated "fuck you really are a girl". I laughed and started wearing a hot pink hat to work to remind them that I was a girl. I carried the joke on, you laugh or you cry.

We have come along way from when women were paid half wages, women can work where they are able too if they want to, it may not be an easy road but it is possible to walk it if you have the strength and ability to set that first foot on it. However the attitudes of society to women who choose to work in what has been traditionally a males world still have along way to go. If anything working hard in steelcaps and hadhats has made me value my own feminity, treasure the softness within my soul and appreciate that which is the submissive me.

As I shed the past that led to my being ashamed of who I am, I am finding renewed strength. In learning to accept myself I am finding forgotten nooks and crannies of joy and places of power from within that make me smile when I look in the mirror. I will not allow people to decide who I am anymore, I will walk tall and proud in my steelcap boots and take pride in my acheivements. I have wasted to much of my life listening to others, it is time to put aside those who do not appreciate who I am.  

Just my 2 cents worth

_____________________________

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warm smiles to all

(in reply to Emperor1956)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/30/2007 12:10:39 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Men can make so much more than women. My father just retired from a union oil refinery. Even if I got a masters degree I wouldn't make as much as he did while he was working.  When I get out of college, I'll be lucky if my salary matches his retirement pension (social security not included). I see nothing wrong with society's view on freeloading men. Considering the comparison in earning potential, I would say this attitude is plenty fair. When jobs that women can do start paying as much as jobs women aren't physically capable of doing, maybe I'll change my mind.


I was wondering how someone could say something so ridiculous, then I remembered, you are in college.  




Estring, I agree.
She shouldn't be wasting her time in college when she could be going to Plumbing school.
Noone wants to get their hands dirty anymore!
Unfortunately with this global economy most college degrees aren't where the big money is anymore.
One time a co-worker asked me to "cover" for her so she could go and do whatever.
Then a second time. Two hours each time.
I asked her to "cover" for me so I could leave early one day; "sorry, I have to pick up my kids blah, blah."
She asked me to cover for her again a third time and I said "no."
She was incensed.
She never talked to me again in a civil manner and never paid me back for covering for her.
Funny how some people think they can impose on and take advantage of you because they "have kids" and you "don't have kids."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 7/30/2007 12:28:10 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: gender roles and $$$ - 7/30/2007 12:51:05 AM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

As to carrying a hide a bed up a flight of stairs, by yourself?  Anyone who can do this will be given $1000 by me, following proof thereof. 

You decide.

Yours,


benji


So if I sent you a dvd recording of someone walking up stairs while carrying a hide a bed couch, you would send that person $1000? Where do you think I came up with the idea unless I had seen someone do it? It happened 14 years ago. My father was helping me move into an upstairs apartment. I told him to leave the couch outside the door and I would find a couple of guys to carry it up the stairs. He must have been afraid it would rain or something. I offered to carry one end but he said I wasn't strong enough. I watched him stand the couch on one end. lift it from the bottom, and walk up the stairs with it. If my calculations are correct, he was approximately 49 yrs old at the time.  I sooo wish I had a video camera back then. I doubt if he could do it now though since he's in his 60's but I shall pass on the word.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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(in reply to gooddogbenji)
Profile   Post #: 40
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