To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?!

To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (Full Version)

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MagiksSlave -> To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 6:43:16 PM)
http://www.collarchat.com/m_1156933/tm.htm The ideas in this thread really got me to thinking " I have to re-enforce the idea that they are slaves by throwing in some unpleasantness...otherwise, it is purely a subjective and theoretic Master/slave relationship." Was in the op of that thread, And I just want to know Why?? Why do you have to suffer or make your slave suffer to show that they are your owned slave?? I dont understand. The thread was are you really owned if you are not treated like property, but why does beeing treated like property mean suffering. Like Aqua said in that thread "Depends on how you look at it. You own a cat, but if you beat it you will be arrested and taken to jail. You own a table and if you smash it to be bits nobody cares." I want to take it a step further, sure you can smash the table but then it is no longer a table it is a pile of fire wood. Which is fine if you need to start a fire but not so great for searving dinner on. If you wanted fire wood why not just buy fire wood why ruin a perfectly good table. So on the same note of you want a slave that does sertain things find a slave that does those things (it doesnt make sence to buy a table if you want fire wood) Dont get your sef a straight sub and then demand she sleeps with other girls you want a slave that sleeps with other girls find yourself a bi slave, I dont see the need to have someone do something they would truely hate doing in order to prove they are truely a slave. OK so the OP wanted to know if you are really owned if you arent treated like property, but dont we treat our property well?? I mean if I want my I pod to work I treat it with care or it dont work no more if I want my to go on the internet I take care of my computer.. so where does suffering come in??? It doesnt... you treat what you own poorly make it "suffer" well you soon dont have that property working anymore. Now I understand the entire idea that a person that only submits when it is something they want to do isnt really a submissive they are just doing what they want to do. But on the other hand I dont see the need to have her do something he would really hate doing. My Master has NEVER made me do something I really didnt want to do, I am more then happy to have done anything for him, but he never asked me to do sertain things because he knew it would really upset me to have to do them. Does it make me less of a slave because he never made me suffer, and that he put my emotional well beeing and happyness high on the list of priorities?? I dont think so!! I dont feel the need to suffer to prove anything, I dont need to be "put in my place" by beeing made to suffer, I know where my place is, I know where it is because it is where I chose to be!! So why do so many feel suffering needs to be part of the deal??? ms

marieToo -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 6:54:57 PM)
I dont think one needs to suffer in order to identify as a slave or as 'property'. I personally need there to be some suffering in my submission, because to me, it just has more value that way. It brings it to a new dimension to me that I seem to need and respond to. Suffering, to some extent, even deepens my submission and makes for a stronger bond...Though Im not sure I can explain why. But I certainly wouldnt say that suffering is a defining factor for one to feel owned.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 6:55:54 PM)
MagiksSlave, I love your post, this how I actually view things as well. At least in terms of true sufferning verses erotic suffering.

MagiksSlave -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 7:00:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile MagiksSlave, I love your post, this how I actually view things as well. At least in terms of true sufferning verses erotic suffering. ((grins)) well erotic suffering is totaly different thing WEG Ill gladly suffer that way!! And Marie, I understand what you are saying, and I understand it is an indavidual thing.. some people want to suffer, but that brings on the entire things of is it really suffering then, but I dont want to go there so forget I said anything!!! ms

slaveluci -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 7:09:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave I dont see the need to have her do something he would really hate doing Master has always said this. He is not going to have me do something simply because He knows I would hate it. If it doesn't please Him, it's not gonna happen. However, if something that does please Him is something I don't like, too bad for me[&o]. It is going to happen (disclaimer: as long as it's not a hard limit which it won't be since those were agreed upon and set in stone before I became His slave...whew[;)]). quote: Does it make me less of a slave because he never made me suffer, and that he put my emotional well beeing and happyness high on the list of priorities?? I dont think so!! And I don't either! I would point out that, for me at least, there are lots of activities that fall somewhere in between things I like and things that make me "suffer." Let's be honest: I don't like getting up at 4 am to get Him off to work. I would much rather still be asleep. Does it make me "suffer" to do it? Not at all, especially since I know what joy it gives Him to have me up with Him, helping Him get His day underway. So, while I wouldn't say I enjoy it, I don't suffer in doing it. Same way with being on an allowance. I don't suffer from it but I would much rather have a few major bills in my purse. He derives pleasure from controlling the amount of money I carry and I am totally provided for without having alot on me at any given time. I never go without anything I need and plenty of money is provided me for groceries, household items, etc. I just don't have alot to use for frivolous purposes which really is a good thing as money seems to run through my fingers if I don't watch. So again, no suffering involved but I'm not thrilled about it either. Believe me, as you said ms, I know my place well without being made to "suffer." It's reinforced in many ways, everyday[:)].....luci

Tinman1960 -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 7:34:48 PM)
SUFFERING IS A PART OF THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE - Master or slave, Dom or sub - we are born, we suffer, etc etc etc - and we die ...life goes on - for someone.

MagiksSlave -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 7:39:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tinman1960 SUFFERING IS A PART OF THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE - Master or slave, Dom or sub - we are born, we suffer, etc etc etc - and we die ...life goes on - for someone. You must know this wasnt what I was talking about... [8\|] ((rolls eyes)) ms

Rover -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 7:40:34 PM)
It's my personal opinion that "suffering" in the manner in which the OP has expressed it, is a form of role play or scene, as it were. John

Wildfleurs -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 7:42:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave I dont feel the need to suffer to prove anything, I dont need to be "put in my place" by beeing made to suffer, I know where my place is, I know where it is because it is where I chose to be!! So why do so many feel suffering needs to be part of the deal??? ms I think the OP in the thread you quoted explained his position pretty well. I tend to think that while there don't need to be particular things set up, that by virtue of having to follow someones direction over the years, there is going to be suffering, adjustment, sucking rocks moments (to steal someone elses phrase) over the years that are just inherent to either submitting or surrendering to someone. Its just a necessary bypart of adjusting and doing what someone wants as opposed to following your own desires/preferences/wants/urges. C~

MagiksSlave -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 7:57:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave I dont feel the need to suffer to prove anything, I dont need to be "put in my place" by beeing made to suffer, I know where my place is, I know where it is because it is where I chose to be!! So why do so many feel suffering needs to be part of the deal??? ms I think the OP in the thread you quoted explained his position pretty well. I tend to think that while there don't need to be particular things set up, that by virtue of having to follow someones direction over the years, there is going to be suffering, adjustment, sucking rocks moments (to steal someone elses phrase) over the years that are just inherent to either submitting or surrendering to someone. Its just a necessary bypart of adjusting and doing what someone wants as opposed to following your own desires/preferences/wants/urges. C~ Personaly i dont agree because I think that suffering in what you have stated have little to do with submission and more to do with what someone had said about there beeing suffering in life... What I was refering to is a Dom perposly makeing a sub suffer, not the random suffering that happens to EVERYONE Dom and sub alike through out life. ms

Wildfleurs -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 8:02:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Personaly i dont agree because I think that suffering in what you have stated have little to do with submission and more to do with what someone had said about there beeing suffering in life... What I was refering to is a Dom perposly makeing a sub suffer, not the random suffering that happens to EVERYONE Dom and sub alike through out life. ms I'm talking specifically about suffering in the context of having to abide by someone elses decisions and wills as their desires shift from what they may have originally been, which is a challenge specific to long term submission and surrender. I'm not talking about lifes challenges C~

MagiksSlave -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 8:06:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Personaly i dont agree because I think that suffering in what you have stated have little to do with submission and more to do with what someone had said about there beeing suffering in life... What I was refering to is a Dom perposly makeing a sub suffer, not the random suffering that happens to EVERYONE Dom and sub alike through out life. ms I'm talking specifically about suffering in the context of having to abide by someone elses decisions and wills as their desires shift from what they may have originally been, which is a challenge specific to long term submission and surrender. I'm not talking about lifes challenges C~ Again I dont really agree but again this wasnt the suffering I was refering too. Personaly I have never run into this problem becuase I am very carefull about who I am a sub too as we are very much on the same page so the desisions that are made for me are always the best ones and there for little suffering from them, at least no more suffering then if I had made the desisions myself... if someone els's desistions for you are often causing you suffering you havent picked the right person to make the desistions for you, at least thats How I see it... but I see we arent going to agree here so lets just agree to dissagrea!! ms

thetammyjo -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 8:06:27 PM)
Do I have to make Fox suffer to show him and I that he is my slave? No. I'm not so unsure of my ownership nor he so unable and incapable of making the commitment to be my slave. However because I am a sadist and he is not a masochist he does indeed suffer from time to time. Why? Because as my property it is his job to carter to my whims and my needs. At times that includes my sadistic desires and as Fox says "It's his duty to serve me in any way I desire that does not harm him". Hurt him, hell yes, harm him, never intentionally would I do that and I would come down on myself very hard should I ever unintentionally harm him. How much though does he suffer in those sadistic moments? It has lessened a great deal. There are things now that he can enjoy that seven years ago he could not. He tells me and shows me that he receives some pleasure and happiness out of pleasing me so I think that tempers the suffering a great deal. You know, this M/s or 24/7 Ds thing isn't a 50/50 split, it isn't equality, it isn't completely fair. And we are cool with that because it makes us both happier and better people than we would be without it and without each other. So yeah, Fox will always get the shorter end of the stick if you like to think about it that way. But the majority of his end is still very positive and rewarding for him just like my end is for me. The day that stops being the case for one of us is the day I think we need to end this and move on to a better relationship.

earthycouple -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 8:08:52 PM)
I'd love to know why this seems to be the general wave of things as well. I'm a sadist and even I think there is a trend in extremes here lately. From "all dominant women hate men" to "all subs are too useless to control their own lives" Of course I've taken a little liberty here but you get the point. Most slaves are beautiful amazing human beings - just like most all other human beings. They don't deserve to be tortured or suffer simply for the sake of either. If this is a part of a dynamic that is pleasing to all parties involved - wonderful! If you are not a slave who handles those types of things then it should be respected. If you are a dominant who doesn't like those sort of things then it should be respected. What this all boils down to folks, is each of us are different and when we take two people and put them together they become a new and different view of things. When we take these two and seperate them only to pair them up with two others...again that will be brand new, interesting, and different dynamics. Every person is different and we simply find those who match best who we are. If XY and Z doesn't like that the sadist in me loves fire play and that the sensual woman in me loves to kiss then I don't want XY or Z...doen't mean I don't like or respect them...just means I don't want to enter into an intimate dynamic with them...and I would venture to guess XY and Z feel the same about me. We just need to respect each others' differences.

MagiksSlave -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 8:10:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo Do I have to make Fox suffer to show him and I that he is my slave? No. I'm not so unsure of my ownership nor he so unable and incapable of making the commitment to be my slave. However because I am a sadist and he is not a masochist he does indeed suffer from time to time. Why? Because as my property it is his job to carter to my whims and my needs. At times that includes my sadistic desires and as Fox says "It's his duty to serve me in any way I desire that does not harm him". Hurt him, hell yes, harm him, never intentionally would I do that and I would come down on myself very hard should I ever unintentionally harm him. How much though does he suffer in those sadistic moments? It has lessened a great deal. There are things now that he can enjoy that seven years ago he could not. He tells me and shows me that he receives some pleasure and happiness out of pleasing me so I think that tempers the suffering a great deal. You know, this M/s or 24/7 Ds thing isn't a 50/50 split, it isn't equality, it isn't completely fair. And we are cool with that because it makes us both happier and better people than we would be without it and without each other. So yeah, Fox will always get the shorter end of the stick if you like to think about it that way. But the majority of his end is still very positive and rewarding for him just like my end is for me. The day that stops being the case for one of us is the day I think we need to end this and move on to a better relationship. Ahh yes, However I would never pick a sadist as a Dom if i was not a masachist, doing so well you sort of made your own bed on that one... Not to say there is anything wrong with that, just not as compatable as I like my SO to be.

windchymes -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 8:10:22 PM)
Some people seem to downright enjoy "suffering". And seem to think they have bragging rights.

MagiksSlave -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 8:13:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: earthycouple I'd love to know why this seems to be the general wave of things as well. I'm a sadist and even I think there is a trend in extremes here lately. From "all dominant women hate men" to "all subs are too useless to control their own lives" Of course I've taken a little liberty here but you get the point. Most slaves are beautiful amazing human beings - just like most all other human beings. They don't deserve to be tortured or suffer simply for the sake of either. If this is a part of a dynamic that is pleasing to all parties involved - wonderful! If you are not a slave who handles those types of things then it should be respected. If you are a dominant who doesn't like those sort of things then it should be respected. What this all boils down to folks, is each of us are different and when we take two people and put them together they become a new and different view of things. When we take these two and seperate them only to pair them up with two others...again that will be brand new, interesting, and different dynamics. Every person is different and we simply find those who match best who we are. If XY and Z doesn't like that the sadist in me loves fire play and that the sensual woman in me loves to kiss then I don't want XY or Z...doen't mean I don't like or respect them...just means I don't want to enter into an intimate dynamic with them...and I would venture to guess XY and Z feel the same about me. We just need to respect each others' differences. Very well said!!! I was not saying that suffering should not exist in M/s some people like the suffering and if it floats there boat, well then its just like any other kink (but again it begs the question if they want to suffer or enjoy suffering is it really suffering but again not what I want to get into here) that isnt what I was saying what I was saying is why do so many think this is what HAS to be in order to qualify as a slave.... ms

BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 8:19:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo I dont think one needs to suffer in order to identify as a slave or as 'property'. I personally need there to be some suffering in my submission, because to me, it just has more value that way. It brings it to a new dimension to me that I seem to need and respond to. Suffering, to some extent, even deepens my submission and makes for a stronger bond...Though Im not sure I can explain why. But I certainly wouldnt say that suffering is a defining factor for one to feel owned. I'm gonna throw a ditto onto Marie's post, along with agreeing that I'm not certain I can explain why I need some suffering, only that I do. There was a thread recently wanting to understand sadism from the viewpoint of the sadist. I posted that as a masochist, I don't always want, like or even enjoy the pain. But I feel a deep, burning need to suffer it from Him and for Him. So for whatever the reasons, I do need to suffer some physically, mentally and emotionally as His slave. Like Marie, I'm not sure if I can explain why exactly, but I do know it deepens the bond I have with Him.

mstrjx -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 8:19:13 PM)
I use a different sort of word to express something similar to what you're trying to get at, I believe. If a couple is D/s, but to use your ideas.... If you know your place and a Dom/Master/Mistress never requires anything untoward, what is the difference between that and a vanilla couple? If you say that one person is still setting the guidelines in all cases and the other not at all, that could still happen in the vanilla world (albeit rare). So, the way I think of it is that s-types might need some sort of 'friction'. Something that is desired by the s-type but denied, or ordered by the d-type but unwanted by the s-type. It doesn't have to be anything all that important, and certainly not rubbing against limits, just something that is a reminder that you really aren't thinly-disguised vanillas. And I think that having that periodic friction might be appreciated rather than having negative connotations. Jeff

Estring -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (7/31/2007 8:22:23 PM)
Even though my slave does things that she may not particularly enjoy because she is my slave, I don't think she would consider that suffering. That just comes with the territory if you are a slave. I would never want my slave to suffer. Now of course I enjoy inflicting pain on her, but again she would not consider that suffering. I want her to be happy with me and she is. And as for treating a slave as property, I have said before, I think having a relationship with a table would be terribly boring.

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