RE: CD'ers and submission

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PrincessinLatex -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/4/2007 7:22:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressMaamNH Let Me preface this to say, this is NOT intended as a flame, or a bashing of those who enjoy cross dressing. More of a sharing of personal experience and point of view. I would have to say that about 95-98% of the males who approach Me to serve, are interested in cross-dressing in one form or another. The vast majority of those that do want that, have also stated that dressing up as a woman brings out their submissive side. Does anyone else feel, as a Dominant Woman (Female Supremacists in particular) that it is an affront to Femininity to so strongly equate being Female, with being submissive and subservient? I don't take the act of CDing as an affront per se. There are aspects of it that don't sit to well with me to be honest. . .but I don't make a stink of it unless specifically asked. One aspect that ruffles my feathers (and please keep in mind that I generally hang out in the "fetish" scene versus the D/s scene) is the widespread portrayal that men that CD must dress/act the part of a slut or whore. I don't generally see men dressing up as elegant/sensible/respectable/professional women. . .it's always got to be the whore with hideous make up. Is that really how they view us? If imitation is the highest form of flattery and that is their rendition of a woman. . .don't flatter me. Most of the time I find it a highly disgusting caricature of women. Another issue that I have is that some simply take it way too far. By this I mean, they demand that the rest of the world recognize them, respect them, and treat them like women. I can go as far as acknowledging that they exist, acknowledging that they have the right to exist, and when they are "dressed". . .I'll use the appropriate pronouns. That's a far cry from me saying or thinking:" Oh, you've got a dress on and 3 lbs of make-up and a wig. . .now you are a woman!" Especially when after they take the skirt and make up off. . .they regain their privledge position in society. Can't have it both ways. quote: Secondly, how many other Dominas feel as I do, that those who are interested in "serving" this way, don't really have an interest in actually serving, i.e. putting the Dominant's needs first and foremost, but are more interested in playing Barbie Doll dressup? I am of the belief, that there should be at bare minimum, an equal exchange of energy between Dominant and submissive. For those who are into the cross-dressing fetish, it seems that all the energy of the relationship flows to the 'submissive' and not the Dominant. Again, I'm not looking for a flame war, or a bashing of any specific person. Just interested in polite, articulate and intelligent discourse. MMNH I've found that most CDers are more concerned with what they are wearing and how they are acting more so than service. I'm sure there are exceptions. . .but my experience is that for the most part. . .the fetish comes before service. Fetish is by nature a selfish thing. If the person comes with CDing tendencies. . .they aren't doing it as any type of service. . .they are doing it for themselves. If it happens to amuse me is secondary to them. As long as they can admit this. . .I'm fine with someone having the fetish. If they still chose to view it as a service to me. . .then I'll test that by having them mow my lawn in full petticoats and a satin maid's uniform. with 6" heels . .THEN they can go to Publix and do my grocery shopping. I'd find that highly amusing.

transsexual -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/4/2007 8:51:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressMaamNH Let Me preface this to say, this is NOT intended as a flame, or a bashing of those who enjoy cross dressing. More of a sharing of personal experience and point of view. I would have to say that about 95-98% of the males who approach Me to serve, are interested in cross-dressing in one form or another. The vast majority of those that do want that, have also stated that dressing up as a woman brings out their submissive side. Does anyone else feel, as a Dominant Woman (Female Supremacists in particular) that it is an affront to Femininity to so strongly equate being Female, with being submissive and subservient? Secondly, how many other Dominas feel as I do, that those who are interested in "serving" this way, don't really have an interest in actually serving, i.e. putting the Dominant's needs first and foremost, but are more interested in playing Barbie Doll dressup? I am of the belief, that there should be at bare minimum, an equal exchange of energy between Dominant and submissive. For those who are into the cross-dressing fetish, it seems that all the energy of the relationship flows to the 'submissive' and not the Dominant. Again, I'm not looking for a flame war, or a bashing of any specific person. Just interested in polite, articulate and intelligent discourse. MMNH Crossdressers cross dress because they value and appreciate the woman so much they want to emulate her. Ever notice when a youth copies a peer it is because they admire them and want to be like the. Its nice!

Driver1961 -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/4/2007 9:25:08 PM)
He dips His lid to all;(and re-adjusts His package) This is a fascinating educative thread! I can understand the various views/perspectives here and look forward to more comments being posted. Personally my trouble with C/d and feminization in general is that it's an affront to my Masculinity! so consequently I refuse to play with C/ds and also have no wish to play with female subs who may wish to masculinze. I well understand the desire of bois to wear female clothing- I continually point out my envy for the choice of styles and feel of the various colourful fabrics that women have in comparison to men. Warm regards to all. Driver.

tvsue -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/5/2007 1:56:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: transsexual Crossdressers cross dress because they value and appreciate the woman so much they want to emulate her. Ever notice when a youth copies a peer it is because they admire them and want to be like the. Its nice! very true well it is for me anyway curtsy tvsue

MissMagnolia -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/5/2007 2:05:11 AM)
I always have trouble understanding those males who are into "forced" feminisation. They have thousands of photo's of themselves dressed in womens clothing, usually self portraits, yet say they like to be forced.[&:] No ones forcing them to dress and pose for photo's that they take themselves. Why "forced"? If they are genuinely admiring of women and want to emulate women, why does it need to be forced?

iwearpanties -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/5/2007 2:15:00 AM)
Hello alll seems too me that some feel the need too place all cders in the same catagory we we realy arent and many have so stated there are so many diffrent type or cders and this is true . i know not all wanna dress like sluts and whores some due i agree .this is a debate that can go on and on for ever and ever just what is a cder good for and what are they willing too do and go thur for the Mistrress or Mastres. honestly i feel the slut / whore thigns comes from seeing dvds, videos of Mistresses and subs together and the so call forced femming in many of these videos you 'll find this type of things going on so maybe we could say this type of play dose get its ideas form this videos and or also for the so called (pro - domminas) that have web site that have all types or sissy/ cding trainng ???? if i wrong then i fully will excpet all the flamming but just take a look and see if i worng then im wrong but i dont think i am ......

MissMagnolia -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/5/2007 2:46:10 AM)
The point of the thread has been reiterated a few times now. It isn't a debate or meant to be inflammatory, it's just about personal experiences from posters who have experienced being around cd's. Nowhere does it say ALL cd's are in the same catagory.

iammachine -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/5/2007 8:04:46 AM)
Very well said, tobes. Thanks for posting your perspective. It's nice to hear an opinion from the other side of the fence as it were. [:)]

tobeshi -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/5/2007 10:30:41 AM)
Great point about the hero/heroine worshiping! Imitation is indeed the greatest form of flattery. I would think if feminization is being done either willingly or enforced, that as long as it is being done with and out of respect for females, is sincerely done in an effort to copy or emulate them that it may be more accepted and tolerated in this culture. In my youth I tried as hard as I could to be like my heros, I wanted to be on the same teams they were on, wear their number on my jersey, play like them, look like them and even eatthe same breakfast cereals they did. For alot of us I think this is the same mindset......it is for me. I want to be like those who I look up to. I think alot of the bad reputation comes from males trying to understand feminity without having proper perspective, guidance and role models. What better mentor and teacher than a femdom? Some of us try to be what we think females are or what they shoud be rather than what they actually are and if perception is reality some of us don`t even get into the ballpark or even the same zip code. We unknowingly end up as cartoon characterizations of what feminity is. I`m sure that this offends some of the females who encounter us in passing.We need to realize that a female in a sweatsuit with no make-up and her hair in rollers has more hormones in her than we could ever have be no matter how hard we try copy her, how dressed up we get or how good we think we look. We can never reach her level of excelence. The whole experience revolves around her and for being given a chance to participate in it we should be willing to return to her 10 fold.

jamesthehumanrug -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/5/2007 3:04:48 PM)
dear driver , for most of what you say- i can understand your dificulty ,w/ being a serious man while some ineffectual woman or man is joking around frolicking........ but.... i never could understand men wearing grocery bag clothes ,and the same no color -all of the time -and, a neck tie they can hang themselves ,w/ ,but , now, i see what my mama meant; boys look at other men ,to see how attractive they are;they get jelous,as women ,and ,they almost look more ,than women ,at each other! ...it only took a lifetime to figure this out.... now bland boring colors like black ,and, grey and, different shades of brown is ok? who knew? !men had the looks dept. all sewn up,and its, just macho to protest and ,say i'm a slob-im a man ,and, i don't care ....,cause, you definitely do care ,especially , when another guy walks in ,w/ a blue-silk shark skin suit....and, no odor......(,that's really important too ,to be ,too cool to smell ,when you're all dressed up - )

Driver1961 -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/6/2007 5:47:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Driver1961 He dips His lid to all; Personally my trouble with C/d and feminization in general is that it's an affront to my Masculinity! so consequently I refuse to play with C/ds and also have no wish to play with female subs who may wish to masculinze. I well understand the desire of bois to wear female clothing- I continually point out my envy for the choice of styles and feel of the various colourful fabrics that women have in comparison to men. Warm regards to all. Driver. Thanks for your comments James, I certainly can be known to dress flamboyantly at times- there's nothing like Top Hat n' Tails- I so envy the choices of women in clothing.

MrEmeralddragon -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/6/2007 8:47:59 AM)
Hmmm there seem to be some strong views on this issue in here. So many things i wanna respond to and address in their own ways but if i did that id be typing here all day. Lets just see what happens if i just start rambling on for a while. The view that some people have about people that are into crossdressing simply dont apply to everyone and MUST be reevaluated each and every time you interact with a CD. Some will have certain views about their CDing and certain things they want or need will be drastically different than others. The feelings that make them CD are always different which is why we can have both dominant and submissive CDs. A lot of people say that often times it seems that a CD needs to dress and act as a woman to be submissive but its not always about being submissive. Sometimes the submissiveness is simply something that happens as a byproduct of the real feelings brought about by their dressing. For myself and quite a few others CDing is done as a form of relaxation. That relaxation is brought about by different things about the CDing be it escapism by way of feeling like a different person or just the fact that it does put you in what most would assume to be a vulnerable position making your troubles not disappear but takes away the need to prevent them as you "cant" stop them no matter what you do. A lot would then act submissive because in such a relaxed state they simply accept any suggestions given to them or they actively want to do anything tat will ensure that they can stay in thier relaxed happy place. Forced crossdressing is the simplest thing to understand. A lot of people see crossdressing as a bad thing thanks to the way "normal" people view such "deviancies". Since those views are bred pretty well into most of us growing up quite a few CDers dont want to admit to being CDs or having those needs. In some cases I dont blame them there have been horrific murders committed all because someone was dressed and acted in a way they "shouldnt". For these people its a way to indulge themselves without indulging themselves. They can say they dont enjoy it but deep down they do and thats why they continue to do it. Some of course dont like it but usually that came becuase the dominant they had was into forced fem and simply brought it into the play after a while. that doesnt happen often though as normally forced fem isnt as forced as the name suggests but how and ever thats basically that. Now lets see what else i wanted to say.... Oh yeah CDing being an insult to masculinity/femininity. Its been said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery but while that is true in most cases it isnt in all. Now most CDs respect women to the fullest and while every now and again we will all put on our "naughty" outfits and play the slut or whore or whatever but most would much rather wear something relaxing or elegant. The only reason I dont is cos decent dresses in my size are damn hard to find and more expensive than Id like [:(] so im normally in a casual top and skirt. There are some that are for the slut look in an all or nothing way as their CDing is more for sexual purposes but even these dont really mean to offend women or their femininity. They just have a deeper feeling for a certain aspect of femininity as they see it. Not everyone can agree with them but its all in the persons own opinions anyway. All that being said there are a few that CD as a way of insulting the opposite sex for whatever reason. These people do exist but thankfully they are in the minority so its really hard to find them. Of course everyone will hit a bit of bad luck every so often so meeting such a person is entirely possible. As long as you just discuss things with the person in question you can either find common ground and accept them or not. Its always going to be different depending on the CD in question and your views at the time. I think Ive rambled on enough for. I havent covered anywhere near everything and didnt go into as much detail as would possibly be needed but well i got out a few main points so i guess this is ok for now.

MissIsis -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/6/2007 8:59:05 AM)
I probably get a good portion of emails & messages from people who are into cross-dressing. I have never felt it was an affront to feminity at all. It has always seemed that it is just what they are into. It maybe, that they are equate cross-dressing with feminity as a submissive quality. It may be a way for some of them to bring out their feminine side. I haven't really analyzed it. I only know, it is not what I look for in a male submissive, & cross dressing by a male does nothing to float my boat. I would imagine there are other Dominant women that might like that sort of thing. It just isn't for me. If I accepted their submission, knowing they were a cross-dresser, I would be denying them what they feel they need, & what they enjoy, because I simply would not allow it from any male submissive that might be mine. They are usually respectful in their contact with me. I respond back politely & let them know I am not interested in this particuliar kink.

MaamJay -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/7/2007 8:29:40 AM)
Having been married to a crossdresser, and known several more in the bdsm scene, I will answer as I have found. I don't find it to be an affront to femininity unless it's the whole "whore" thing as has been mentioned here. I can entirely understand the desire to experience beautiful fabrics and the sensuality that brings. And women cross dress every day ... most women wear trousers more than skirts these days (so much so some are aghast if their Dominants make skirts mandatory!) ... many women wear very masculine shoes etc etc. It doesn't seem fair that women can wear trousers but it's a shock if a man wears a skirt or high heels. I agree the whole "forced" thing is a device, simply an artifice so they can blame someone else for enabling them to satisfy their secret desire. That whole forced thing (whether its forced feminisation, forced sex, forced watersports, forced cooking ... forced ANYTHING) doesn't float My boat as a Domme. For a couple of the CDs I have met it's simply a preference ... their submission to and service of their Mistress is paramount and if they are lucky, they have found One who likes seeing them in femme gear and allows them to dress that way. That wasn't the case for My ex hubby ... his was a very selfish version of cross dressing in that it was all about him and the attention he got from bdsm friends (especially women) when dressed. They would all fawn over his shoes etc ... he was truly one of the "S&M means Stand & Model" types. Eventually it became obvious he is not submissive and simply cannot be while he is so fixated on himself and his own needs. For that reason, I am wary of engaging with another CD male ... once bitten, twice shy! However, for a bit of a twist on the tale, My new fem sub abandoned wearing skirts etc some time ago (for reasons I understand but I think she has moved on from) ... she has been in the "track pants and shorts" brigade. I am in the process of refeminising her ... for if I have a fem sub ... I want her to look fem! And besides, Master's house rules include sub fems in skirts ... so no way she is allowed trousers! I wouldn't say this is "forced" feminisation ... but it's certainly strong encouragement! Maam Jay aka violet[A]

LotusSong -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/7/2007 9:18:39 AM)
Yup. I've always felt that way. And those that wish to be dressed as a female because it's humiliating.

LotusSong -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/7/2007 9:52:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tobeshi A short while ago I was in a meeting and one of the female attendees arrived wearing a buisness suit (jacket, slacks, shirt and tie) that was almost identicle to mine. Nothing was thought of it. The following day she wore a very tasteful and cute career dress and heels. Other than being complimented nothing was said. I thought how nice it must be to be able to openly dress like that and wondered why I couldn`t do it. The answer quickly came to me that if I did dress like that, my next job would be looking for a job. It seemed unfair that females can, for the most part dress and present themselves however they want to without any concerns of ridicule or reprisals. Then reality set in...life isn`t fair. I thought what fun it would be to someday be able to dress, go out and to be taken and accepted as being feminine anytime you wanted to; without having to be female. I envy the freedom women have available in their lives should they choose to exploit it. Just once I would like to know what it is like. Firstly, thank you for your thoughts on this topic. What I have bolded above is the difference between a female dressed in a style in a masculine style as opposed to CDing. We don't dress like that to FEEL MASCULINE. When we get dressed in the morning, we first and foremost put on what looks good and what point we may want to get across that day. CD'ers do it to feel and look feminine. Now if she wore that suit with a wig styled in a man's style, men's shoes, pasted on thick eyebrows, a mustache and beard, lowered her voice, used masculine gestures and stuffed a "package" in the front of her pants to go to the meeting, be assured she would be ostracized as much as you feel you would be doing in the converse. quote: The dressing experience is very stimulating, exciting and provocative. The more femine, the more exciting. All of my senses are heightened and become acutely aware of the fabrics, textures, smell and associated sensations. (why would anyone ever want to wear men`s clothes?) I am ready for anything that is asked of me. But again, you are ready so long as the Domme does everything YOU want /expect her to. quote: To me dressing to humilate implys that unless dressed, the male is superior and when he is dressed he is brought down to the doms level. There you have it. After all your pretty words, you yourself use this phrase. Brought DOWN to her LEVEL?????!!!!! Gee thanks. If this is admiration, I'll pass, thankyouverymuch.

LotusSong -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/7/2007 9:55:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PrincessinLatex I don't take the act of CDing as an affront per se. There are aspects of it that don't sit to well with me to be honest. . .but I don't make a stink of it unless specifically asked. One aspect that ruffles my feathers (and please keep in mind that I generally hang out in the "fetish" scene versus the D/s scene) is the widespread portrayal that men that CD must dress/act the part of a slut or whore. I don't generally see men dressing up as elegant/sensible/respectable/professional women. . .it's always got to be the whore with hideous make up. Is that really how they view us? If imitation is the highest form of flattery and that is their rendition of a woman. . .don't flatter me. Most of the time I find it a highly disgusting caricature of women. Another issue that I have is that some simply take it way too far. By this I mean, they demand that the rest of the world recognize them, respect them, and treat them like women. I can go as far as acknowledging that they exist, acknowledging that they have the right to exist, and when they are "dressed". . .I'll use the appropriate pronouns. That's a far cry from me saying or thinking:" Oh, you've got a dress on and 3 lbs of make-up and a wig. . .now you are a woman!" Especially when after they take the skirt and make up off. . .they regain their privledge position in society. Can't have it both ways. ... bingo! well said.

Jasmyn -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/7/2007 10:56:33 AM)
quote: We don't do that to feel MASCULINE. When we get dressed in the morning, we first and foremost put on what looks good and what point we may want to get across that day. CD'ers do it to feel and look feminine. Oh give me a break ... you can't tell me you've never put on a frigging dress or slipped on a skirt and the point you wanted to get across that day was I HAVE TITS & ARSE ... That's the point ... a CD'er want's that freedom. The fact they have to create it is a matter of genes ... they can take heart though, many women fake it ...

MistressDolly -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/7/2007 11:45:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissMagnolia I always have trouble understanding those males who are into "forced" feminisation. They have thousands of photo's of themselves dressed in womens clothing, usually self portraits, yet say they like to be forced.[&:] No ones forcing them to dress and pose for photo's that they take themselves. Why "forced"? If they are genuinely admiring of women and want to emulate women, why does it need to be forced? I agree that the idea of being "forced" to dress is purely a front for some CD'ers. However, from my interactions with some CD'ers, I've come to the conclusion that some actually do prefer to be forced into dressing because it alleviates some of the self-imposed guilt they feel in engaging in narcissistic behavior -- on their own--. I don't mean this as an insult when I say some crossdressers are very self-absorbed when it comes to their sexuality, but from my experience, their sexuaity is, in fact, very fantasy driven and purely self-driven. They very much focus all their sexual interest on themselves rather than on another person; where a man would normally put his sexual interest in the look and feel of a woman, the crossdresser would prefer to put his sexual interest in his own image as a woman rather than in the actual female. Again, this is not to say all crossdressers across the board are not into women or are into themselves more than other women - - it is just my own personal experience. So, by being "forced" to dress, the "forcing" ends up taking away some of the guilt " some" CD'ers feel from having these seemingly phallicistic (sp?) tendencies.

Unrepentant1 -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/7/2007 12:24:46 PM)
Now with me it would have to be forced, with a gun to my head by a known killer!

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