RE: "Submission is a Gift" (Full Version)

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chey -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/2/2007 11:03:48 AM)

D.G. I love the way you put things....call me sick but I  "get it" and your posts are more than mildly entertaining. Not that I think you are here to entertain me!



michaelOfGeorgia -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/2/2007 11:07:45 AM)

quote:

The same could be said about life itself, especially if you waste it feeling sorry for yourself


actually, i feel sorry for those that will never take the time to really get to know me, their lose...not mine



bliss1 -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/2/2007 11:45:58 AM)

I am one of those who see Domination as a gift.
If he isn't doing it from the heart - it doesn't mean much to me.

Yes I know it is who I am - but I don't submit to just everyone and any Dom who expects all sub's to submit to him - not my shoot of whiskey



Kimveri -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/2/2007 12:47:23 PM)

Hello, folks,

I have seen this phrase argued innumerable times over the years & I am always surprised at the rarity of those who see what I see. (Maybe I'm way odder than my mom told me, eh? ;-D)

To me, submission (& dominance) are natural reactive behaviors & nothing else. A woman's submission is triggered by a unique (for each person) set of stimuli. For those about to mention consent, remember that between the stimuli  impacting her & her expression of that reaction, she gets to choose HOW to express it, if at all. Dominance works the same way, in my experience.

It's not what I would term a 'personality trait' as it seeks some sort of catalyst, some sort of stimulus to arouse it. A personality trait would be 'always on', causing the inability to act without some dominating force to guide the submissive. I think most will agree that it's not expressed to all & sundry, deserving or not. Those I know who identify as submissive are usually discerning in that expression.

Most submissives I've known also have strong feminine urges to nurture those they loves/reveres. This is still not personality, but rather instinct, in fact, it's instinctive behavior.  Once again, for those of you clamoring about consensuality, one CAN choose how, when, where & with whom one acts on these behavioral urges in any given manner.

I think calling submission, or Dominance, a "gift" negates the value of chemistry, instinct, & actions. Without the cause, the effect is reduced to something unmerited. I think that dominants & the submissives deserve MORE than that. They deserve something that's been earned.

Alright, I've rambled....  ;-D

Well wishes,

~Kimveri



LATEXBABY64 -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/2/2007 1:17:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri


I think calling submission, or Dominance, a "gift" negates the value of chemistry, instinct, & actions. Without the cause, the effect is reduced to something unmerited. I think that dominants & the submissives deserve MORE than that. They deserve something that's been earned.


~Kimveri


I think there is a lot of truth to this. things need to be earned on either side of the fence. it is more respected but that comes with the bonding process of getting to know each other...



beargonewild -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/2/2007 1:48:55 PM)

I couldn't have stated this any better. Thanks.



MrDiscipline44 -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/2/2007 4:05:07 PM)

Wow, what an amazing and refreashing view of it all. Well done, I say, well done.



lonlyrossInNeed -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/2/2007 6:46:41 PM)

I think it is a gift becouse the submissive has to give it just as much as the Domme or Dom has to be willing to give it and if one is not to eager to jump into somthing then they are willing to take the time to earn the gift from each other :)
 
ross.g



leatherette -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/2/2007 7:26:06 PM)

Please, oh please - no more re-gifting.

(That fruitcake is plain stale)



leatherette -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/2/2007 7:41:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri


To me, submission (& dominance) are natural reactive behaviors & nothing else. A woman's submission is triggered by a unique (for each person) set of stimuli. For those about to mention consent, remember that between the stimuli  impacting her & her expression of that reaction, she gets to choose HOW to express it, if at all. Dominance works the same way, in my experience.
So, you would agree that we do have to over come natural instinctual reactions in order to make a good choice on who to submit to?
I truly agree.  It is a primordal reaction - but we do have strong minds to make rational decisions, right?

Most submissives I've known also have strong feminine urges to nurture those they loves/reveres. This is still not personality, but rather instinct, in fact, it's instinctive behavior.  Once again, for those of you clamoring about consensuality, one CAN choose how, when, where & with whom one acts on these behavioral urges in any given manner.

Ok, we can call it feminine. But what about submissive men?
 
Ooh -- and some dominants are so hard to resist. Especially when they want their way..   Have you ever struggled? Emotional, limbic  instinct vs. stark, hard judgement - 100% rationally. Can we be so cold? Or do our warm hearts often give the benefit of a doubt to one who entrances us? 

I think calling submission, or Dominance, a "gift" negates the value of chemistry, instinct, & actions. Without the cause, the effect is reduced to something unmerited. I think that dominants & the submissives deserve MORE than that. They deserve something that's been earned.

They do deserve more than that. What a nice thing to say :)
Alright, I've rambled....  ;-D
 
and thank you for it..

~Kimveri
  Interesting take. I'm happy you expressed your views.



Kimveri -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/2/2007 9:12:00 PM)

Hello, folks,

Howdy, leatherette,

quote:

ORIGINAL: leatherette
So, you would agree that we do have to over come natural instinctual reactions in order to make a good choice on who to submit to?


Hmmm....no, I don't think it's a matter of overcoming the instinct so much as coming into harmony with it, to balance it with a strong reason. I think they both (instinct & reason) have a place & a purpose & that any repression or denial is usually unhealthy. In order to truly understand what we know about our own unique urges, instincts & rationales, we must study them in action, from various angles, scrutinize our motivations & stimuli, & then, accept it as an intrinsic part of our whole self. Then we can have some measure of enlightened choice in what we do.

It's one of the funny contradictions I've seen over the years -- we speak of consent so often, & of informed consent fairly regularly, but we rarely speak of informed awareness of self. I think it's tough to consent to something when you don't know yourself well enough to have a clue how you will react to it, or it's effects.

quote:


Ok, we can call it feminine. But what about submissive men?


*grins wryly*

I'm not a man so any response will be mere supposition for me but...I'll try.

I think that some submissive men might be expressing aspects of a feminine nature (I'm of the mind that every human has some aspects of both, to varying degrees). Some might be expressing the male counterpart to that feminine urge -- provide for. I think that the male urge to provide for his loved one(s) can be as gentle, empathic &  even self-negating (in appearance) as any female urge to nurture.

From all I've studied, both of these urges are the result of pair-bonding, so it'd clearly mean that the submissive is fully invested in the relationship & the dominant has somehow merited/caused this investiture

(disclaimer: I am not a "licensed" sociobiologist, nor do I play one on TV. I just happen to read a LOT in this field as it helps me in my profession. There are certainly those among us who can clarify or correct my fumblings towards understanding! ;-D)

Thanks for the warm & thought-provoking response, leatherette!

I wish you, & everyone, well,

~Kimveri



smilingjaguar -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/2/2007 9:47:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
There's submission as a function of who you are (ie: a natural expression of being yourself).  There's submission as something you "do" (ie: something you enjoy for short periods of time, like a scene).  There's submission as a relationship dynamic (ie: just to the one(s) of your choosing).  There's submission as a personality trait (ie: submissive in all situations to all people). 


Thanks for this post, Rover.  It put into words some things that have been floating around my head far simpler and much more concise than anything I would have ever come up with.  Great food for thought.



Rover -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/3/2007 5:16:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

I don't think it's a matter of overcoming the instinct so much as coming into harmony with it, to balance it with a strong reason. I think they both (instinct & reason) have a place & a purpose & that any repression or denial is usually unhealthy.


It has been my experience that reason is in quite short supply, and that overwhelmingly people make their choices based upon instinct (and often base instincts at that).  I think you're expressing an ideal, and a laudable one at that.  But as generalities go, I think it's far from reflective of reality.
 
John



WoodenPaddle -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (12/5/2008 10:42:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

The submission I seek is not a gift, it isn't something consciously given.  Either I evoke feelings of submissiveness in a woman or not.  I am not interested in "today I will give my gift to Michael but tomorrow I might give it to Fred".  If it isn't strong enough to be overwhelming, then it isn't enough to interest me.

Its like saying attraction is a gift and people consciously choose who they are and are not attracted to.  You can consciously choose who you want to be involved with but not who you are attracted to.  So for that reason, submission is not and cannot be a gift.


I agree with the first part, that the submission needs to be strong enough to mean anything, so it's not something that can be given to 1 today and another tomorrow.

I disagree about it not being a gift. It is. But like with any gift, it cannot be "withdrawn" or "taken away" again.
A gift means transferring the rights/ownership of something from one person to another. If I give someone  a watch as a birthday present for instance, I cannot tell her a month later that I don't like her anymore and will take away the watch again. It's given, and no longer mine to take back.
The same idea works for submission. Once a sub decides to give her submission to someone, she cannot decide to "take it back". She may ASK to be released, but it is the Dom who will decide.
That's one reason why I have a big problem with people giving or taking a collar too soon. Real submission is something that is a very great gift, and will have a huge impact on the life of someone and is not something to be given away lightly.
Once given, like I said before, it's out of her hands.
That also means it is the responsibility of the Dom to see to it that the girl is ready for such a step, and will explain very carefully what the consequenses are. A Dom should be responisble enough to say no, or to wait until the submissive is really ready.
I would not accept a girl without a set trial period first for instance.



Rover -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (12/5/2008 10:48:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodenPaddle

Once a sub decides to give her submission to someone, she cannot decide to "take it back". She may ASK to be released, but it is the Dom who will decide.


OJ just got two 15 year (concurrent) sentences for kidnapping.  How long are you prepared to do if she is determined to leave you?
 
John



NihilusZero -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (12/5/2008 10:48:19 PM)

Gifts are things given (one would presume) without the expectation of something in return. Altruistic and selfless as one may wish to be, no relationship is without reciprocal desires. They shouldn't be...it would destroy the entire basis of compatibility.

Unless submission is a gift a sub/slave is giving themselves by choosing me to dominate them, I would see it as defeating the purpose.



NihilusZero -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (12/5/2008 10:49:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodenPaddle

Once a sub decides to give her submission to someone, she cannot decide to "take it back".

This contrary to reality?

Or perhaps you're referring to the further pole of M/s relationships instead?



Rover -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (12/5/2008 10:51:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodenPaddle

Once a sub decides to give her submission to someone, she cannot decide to "take it back".

This contrary to reality?

Or perhaps you're referring to the further pole of M/s relationships instead?


And it's any more realistic in M/s relationships? 
 
John



CalifChick -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (12/5/2008 10:53:18 PM)

Oh, we haven't had a good "submission is a gift" thread in a while... this turkey was over a year old.

Why is it no one ever says, "my love is a gift", "my blowjob skills are a gift", "my ability to double-clutch a stick-shift is a gift" ... you know, those really important things that have nothing to do with an orientation?


Cali



Rover -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (12/5/2008 10:55:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

"my blowjob skills are a gift"


We really should meet.... soon.
 
John



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