"Submission is a Gift"

"Submission is a Gift" (Full Version)

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DawnFire -> "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 5:21:29 AM)
I have just got to know, what is everyone's problem with the phrase, "Submission is a gift". I see it several ways... 1. It could be used as a really bad excuse to getting out of something a submissive didn't want to do, IE "My submission is a gift, I could take it away." But then it wouldn't be a gift exactly, it'd be more like a loan, so "gift" still doesn't bother me. 2. It could be that one might see submission as a personality trait, and therefore have a problem with seeing it as a gift. If that's the case, we would have to define what submission means in each case. IE the gift of submission might be the "giving" of oneself over to their dominants control. -In which case I still have no problem with the term 3. Submission as a gift may be seen as making the act of submission (a verb) into a noun... and the grammer of it all might really bother some people at a deeper level. Really I'm just grasping at straws here... I'd really like to know. -Dawn

michaelOfGeorgia -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 5:24:15 AM)
i've often thought of my submission as a curse. if it were a gift, you'd think someone out there would except it. maybe i'm wrong about this, but i am curious if anyone else feels the same way..that submission can often times be a curse

ExSteelAgain -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 5:54:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DawnFire 2. It could be that one might see submission as a personality trait, and therefore have a problem with seeing it as a gift. If that's the case, we would have to define what submission means in each case. IE the gift of submission might be the "giving" of oneself over to their dominants control. You made a good point right there, however, if one sees submission as a personality trait, why do you have to define what submission means in each case? If we are speaking in generalizations here, why do we need to get specific? Your last line about giving oneself to the control of a dominant is semantics play and makes less of a point.

Satyr6406 -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 6:01:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DawnFire 1. It could be used as a really bad excuse to getting out of something a submissive didn't want to do, IE "My submission is a gift, I could take it away." But then it wouldn't be a gift exactly, it'd be more like a loan, so "gift" still doesn't bother me. -Dawn Well, I guess if you believe that a submissive is supposed to "delegate" power. Once that power is "taken back", in my mind, they've withdrawn their submission and ended the relationship. I'm not speaking in BDSM terms, here. I'm not talking about scening, where the bottom IS IN CONTROL. I'm talking about a D/s relationship where delegating power is NOT the same as submitting (in my opinion). Peace and comfort, Michael

DawnFire -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 6:13:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain quote: ORIGINAL: DawnFire 2. It could be that one might see submission as a personality trait, and therefore have a problem with seeing it as a gift. If that's the case, we would have to define what submission means in each case. IE the gift of submission might be the "giving" of oneself over to their dominants control. You made a good point right there, however, if one sees submission as a personality trait, why do you have to define what submission means in each case? If we are speaking in generalizations here, why do we need to get specific? Your last line about giving oneself to the control of a dominant is semantics play and makes less of a point. I guess my point is - that it's all semantics - if someone has a problem with a phrase, its a matter of semantics. If they have a problem with the meaning behind the phrase, that's an entirely different matter.

Rover -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 6:16:08 AM)
As is the case with most BDSM terms, there's nothing even approaching consensus on the definitiion of "submission". And frankly, it depends upon what form you're even asking about. There's submission as a function of who you are (ie: a natural expression of being yourself). There's submission as something you "do" (ie: something you enjoy for short periods of time, like a scene). There's submission as a relationship dynamic (ie: just to the one(s) of your choosing). There's submission as a personality trait (ie: submissive in all situations to all people). Getting beyond the indefinite nature of the term itself, I'd note the following about its portrayal as a "gift": 1. I like the fact that viewed as a "gift", neophytes have a readily identifiable analogy that teaches them that it can be given solely to those of their choosing, and that they are not obligated to all Dominants. 2. I despise the analogy since "gifts" cannot be taken back once given, while submission surely can (and often is). Viewing submission as a "gift" is simply not representative of reality. Consequently, I have a foot in both camps as it relates to the "submission as a gift" controversy. John

DawnFire -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 6:20:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Satyr6406 quote: ORIGINAL: DawnFire 1. It could be used as a really bad excuse to getting out of something a submissive didn't want to do, IE "My submission is a gift, I could take it away." But then it wouldn't be a gift exactly, it'd be more like a loan, so "gift" still doesn't bother me. -Dawn Well, I guess if you believe that a submissive is supposed to "delegate" power. Once that power is "taken back", in my mind, they've withdrawn their submission and ended the relationship. I'm not speaking in BDSM terms, here. I'm not talking about scening, where the bottom IS IN CONTROL. I'm talking about a D/s relationship where delegating power is NOT the same as submitting (in my opinion). Peace and comfort, Michael I agree that if a submissive were to "take back" their submission, they would no longer be my submissive. I have heard a few people in various message boards explain that they hate the phrase for this reason. If you have a better way to combat this reason, I'm all ears.

Alumbrado -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 6:20:35 AM)
It is not a gift, it is a loan... And no amount of logic is going to put an end to some people 'having a problem' with leaving others to enjoy themselves as they see fit.

DawnFire -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 6:23:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover As is the case with most BDSM terms, there's nothing even approaching consensus on the definitiion of "submission". And frankly, it depends upon what form you're even asking about. There's submission as a function of who you are (ie: a natural expression of being yourself). There's submission as something you "do" (ie: something you enjoy for short periods of time, like a scene). There's submission as a relationship dynamic (ie: just to the one(s) of your choosing). There's submission as a personality trait (ie: submissive in all situations to all people). Getting beyond the indefinite nature of the term itself, I'd note the following about its portrayal as a "gift": 1. I like the fact that viewed as a "gift", neophytes have a readily identifiable analogy that teaches them that it can be given solely to those of their choosing, and that they are not obligated to all Dominants. 2. I despise the analogy since "gifts" cannot be taken back once given, while submission surely can (and often is). Viewing submission as a "gift" is simply not representative of reality. Consequently, I have a foot in both camps as it relates to the "submission as a gift" controversy. John I love it. Thank you for a truly intellectually stimulating reply to my post.

domiguy -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 6:39:28 AM)
Anyone who views submissiveness as being a gift has a tiny brain and a limited vocabulary.

Satyr6406 -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 6:41:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DawnFire I agree that if a submissive were to "take back" their submission, they would no longer be my submissive. I have heard a few people in various message boards explain that they hate the phrase for this reason. If you have a better way to combat this reason, I'm all ears. The only way I know of to "combat" this is to take time to get to a know a submissive and try and make sure that they see things the same way you do. I have stated, publicly enough and privately with ladies I consider to be potentials that I expect absolute submission. I'm not here for the BDSM entirely; that what's important to me is that the D/s dynamic be in operation at all times. My profile states that I am exacting (at best). I expect the same considerations I give and I hold people to almost as high a standard as I hold myself. Peace and comfort, Michael

windchymes -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 6:56:44 AM)
But if the recipient chooses to view it as a gift, it's his or her prerogative and they should be entitled to not have the concept constantly ridiculed.

Rover -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 7:13:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes But if the recipient chooses to view it as a gift, it's his or her prerogative and they should be entitled to not have the concept constantly ridiculed. Maybe, maybe not. While that may sound like a reasonable and laudable concept, in reality it's used to silence dissenting opinion. Not so good in my view. If there's a public thread then everyone has the right to publicly express their opinion, pro or con. Those that desire to express their opinion without inviting public reply need to rent a roadside billboard. John

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 7:16:17 AM)
http://www.collarchat.com/m_725554/mpage_2/key_gift/tm.htm#725692 It ain't a gift http://www.collarchat.com/m_539780/mpage_1/key_gift/tm.htm#539948 The gift of submission http://www.collarchat.com/m_417971/mpage_2/key_gift/tm.htm#418195 submission is a gift!!!??? http://www.collarchat.com/m_285542/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#285542 If submission is a 'gift.' what's dominance? http://www.collarchat.com/m_199872/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#199872 The Gift you give to yourself http://www.collarchat.com/m_195087/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#195087 A gift??? http://www.collarchat.com/m_137582/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#137582 The Domly Gift http://www.collarchat.com/m_135667/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#135667 Why do so many view submission as a gift? http://www.collarchat.com/m_128811/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#128811 Do you consider your submission to someone a gift? http://www.collarchat.com/m_118674/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#118674 Gift or not... http://www.collarchat.com/m_109097/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#109097 The "gift" of submission http://www.collarchat.com/m_26446/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#26446 On the gift of submission http://www.collarchat.com/m_17487/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#17487 my thoughts on the "gift" of submission

SimplyMichael -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 7:16:20 AM)
The submission I seek is not a gift, it isn't something consciously given. Either I evoke feelings of submissiveness in a woman or not. I am not interested in "today I will give my gift to Michael but tomorrow I might give it to Fred". If it isn't strong enough to be overwhelming, then it isn't enough to interest me. Its like saying attraction is a gift and people consciously choose who they are and are not attracted to. You can consciously choose who you want to be involved with but not who you are attracted to. So for that reason, submission is not and cannot be a gift.

windchymes -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 7:19:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes But if the recipient chooses to view it as a gift, it's his or her prerogative and they should be entitled to not have the concept constantly ridiculed. Maybe, maybe not. If there's a public thread then everyone has the right to publicly express their opinion, pro or con. While that may sound like a reasonable and laudable concept, in reality it's used to silence dissenting opinion. Not such a good thing in my view. Those that desire to express their opinion without inviting public reply need to rent a roadside billboard. John But there's a big difference between expressing a dissenting opinion and ridicule. We preach about that constantly on the boards, accepting others rights to their own opinions and points of view. If someone comes in here and declares "eating scat and drinking pee is disgusting!", others will jump to defend the rights of those who enjoy dining on it to continue to enjoy doing so. But, for some reason, this "submission is a gift" topic seems to really raise hackles in here.

BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 7:21:32 AM)
Submission is NOT a gift,its a need ,a slave to give and a master to accept,I know this sounds strange but some times submission is hard to accept when a slave/sub believes she is bring a wonderful gift smiles...IT takes two to tango....will clarified late but gotta run for now...bounty

DawnFire -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 7:21:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes But if the recipient chooses to view it as a gift, it's his or her prerogative and they should be entitled to not have the concept constantly ridiculed. Yeah, I think that's what I was going with, but Rover is right too, public thread, public opinion. And thanks LuckyAlbatross, glad for the knowledge that the volumes of argument on this subject are extensive. I'll have to read over some of the older arguments and see how they went.

Rover -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 7:22:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael I am not interested in "today I will give my gift to Michael but tomorrow I might give it to Fred". Unfortunately, that's the nature of consensual relationships of any kind. I think you're confusing possibility with probability. While it's always possible that your submissive (or mine, or anyone else's) may decide to submit to Fred tomorrow, it's not very probable (Fred being a loser and all). Still, that slim possibility always exists because of that pesky issue of consent. John

Rover -> RE: "Submission is a Gift" (8/1/2007 7:26:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes But there's a big difference between expressing a dissenting opinion and ridicule. Granted, but now you're discussing style rather than substance. Or common courtesy if you will. A considerably different concept. John

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