RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity.

RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (Full Version)

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Zensee -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 8:35:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Zensee: I dont have a problem with fancy speculations, its when they suddenly emerge as scientific facts that I take issue. You say that crocs. dont need abstract reasoning capacity to survive, well neither do humans. As a species it exists in us and has been present thoughout known history. Why when its not necessary and in fact in many circumstances may be detrimental. Lets say Fight or Flight or Speculate. The third option would soon lead to extinction therefore orthodox evolutionary theory says it should not exist. But it does !! You also appear to believe that the only determinant of human capacity is in the genetic structure. Is that true or are you just unconsciously assuming it to be so ?. Surely the genetic structure will affect the physical development of the "body machine" but once built what determines the performance ? The cause of human consciousnes is a total unknown as far as I know and IMO is likely to remain so. Scientific "facts" don't just suddenly emerge from speculations - they evolve in an environment of experimentation, review, testing, more review, evidence, new speculation... Abstract thought is a defining / essential trait of homo sapiens sapiens. It is absolutely crucial for our survival in our present form (homo technicalis) and in our development to this point. You are talking through your hat. No matter how long human consciousness remains a mystery, science will offer better descriptions of nature than fables and opinions. Our success as a species has been detrimental to the natural world and to many other species but not enough to cause our own extinction - yet. That may happen. The situation is emergent, not static. Change is the only constant etc. etc. If Speculate leads to better Fight and Flight, indeed to entirely new options for negotiating danger, then it is completely adaptive. Your theory says it shouldn't exist. Evolutionary theory says otherwise. Don't confuse the two. As to me advocating genetic determinism - whose posts have you been reading? I have said repeatedly argued the contrary, especially in refuting your own arguments that the troubles in Africa are the result of inferior genetics. Your point of view is deterministic, not mine. You should at least read what you write even if you are going to misread me. Z.

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 9:27:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol I only type at 72wpm, but with some level of accuracy it seems [;)]; maybe that's why I spent a lot of my career being a secretary! Okay, enough boasting, and time to check out the word 'quadrinomial'... oh, I see, it just means 'made of four things'! I think I can get my head around that, blonde brain and all. Now, on to the means we have to eradicate xenophobia and prejudice in our immediate vicinities. Any thoughts? lol i love your wit and candor. i used to be a secretarty for my mum since i was 10 so i tend to type REALLY REALLY fast.. few people can IM with me because i am like 10 lines of IMs per their one. i slow chat down to about 65 words per min at least. quadrinomial nomenclature is really tedious. i'm one of those nerds that is a taxonomist. i study taxonomy.. i know the scientific nomenclature of most species on the globe. sadly, nomenclature has turned for naming things discovered by their names and not by actual biological distinctions. thank god we have a council on that. (and i'm speaking purely for nomenclature of whales, dolphins and inverts). i think your mind is so open. i really do. and i find that good.

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 9:33:23 PM)
quote: ewer To quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave quote: DesertRat Maybe we all need to be more comfortable and secure about who we ourselves are, and then we won't feel threatened by the ways of others This is true but what wont work is trying to pretend that differences do not exist and some of those differences do not pose serious social problems. \ who said that differences do NOT exist? what we're saying is that it is largely phenotypical. like i said and NO one addressed. people talk about what is not or what is addressed. i ask the people that view things like you do... WHAT is race?. should we phenotypically (ie looks) or should we GENOTYPICALLY define race? i notice you evade things that cause you to look at situations purely unbiasedly. for some odd reason i feel the need to show you the bigger picture of things. i'm beginning to think that you simply will hold steadfastly to your views of things. that does not negate the fact that i WOULD and COULD give you blood or an organ if i needed to. ask a dog for my blood to transfuse to you. ask a chimp. then ask a human. WHO could you get blood from? could you determine race from a blood sample? if so that would make the job of CSIs a lot easier. take the blood from a rat and attempt to transfuse it. ya can't

Real0ne -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 9:37:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess my IQ is not great, only slightly above 145 which while it DOES make me technically a genius, It depends. If it is a mensa score subtract 30 points to be equivalent to the standard test> 145 to the best of my memory is "gifted". you are looking at somewhere around the 160 standard or the 190 mensa to get into the genius bracket and then you can read and understand the tax codes in the irs manual since it is written at about a 150 - 160 iq on the average.referenced to the standard test that is. Oh and btw....... Did anybody else perv this womans profile? If azzmaster laid eyes her butt he wouldnt sleep for a week! LOL

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 9:39:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Interesting that you focused the discussion on a black/white dichotomy. It's obvious it comes from your own experience. I have had had no such experience, because I come from a place where it was ACTIVELY discouraged to show prejudice in any shape or form. Huh, good luck with your venture, whatever it may be. Kit, i was on another forum for impregnation (yes.. a fetish of mine) and i encountered the same discussion and a decent amount of people had dissenting views of race and intermixing. sadly, it's not as rare as one may feel it is.. but like i said.. i will probably outlive most that view race as a reason to judge folks. god i wish people had the same oppurtunity to education that i do. my bf is a white male in the military. i love him to death and i know he's doing what he has to, whether we agree or not. when we have children they will have the same intellectual capacity of anyone else that is afforded the same nutrition, education, and nurturing that the rest of the world should. i feel sorry for Seeks (and yes i said it.. i feel sorry for you). 'nuff said

Zensee -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 9:42:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave A few selected quotes... I believe , though do not know, that this definition only came about when Natural Selectioners began to realise that their theories led nowhere but back up their polyploidal orifices. Name calling and toilet humour. What in your opinion accounts for the almost total failure of every independant nation in Africa. This has not happened in India, Singapore or Israel. as examples. Groundless slurs against an entire continent. Scientific elites just dont know as much as they like to project and as many willing followers like to believe More name calling and guilt by association. Dont say that you will upset those who have eyes,wont look, but will spew out A bit more name calling. You sensitive souls out there would answer no and if you knew enough about motor technology you would tell us why. Lame, condescending but still name calling, again. And now - The Punchline! Whenever a little ad hominem attack creeps into the debate its reasonable to conclude that the opposition is rattled. Thank you thank you - I'm here all week. Sorry Seeks but you gotta admit this is a case of the pot calling the kettle a member of the same ethnic cetegory. Z.

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 9:50:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess my IQ is not great, only slightly above 145 which while it DOES make me technically a genius, It depends. If it is a mensa score subtract 30 points to be equivalent to the standard test> 145 to the best of my memory is "gifted". you are looking at somewhere around the 160 standard or the 190 mensa to get into the genius bracket and then you can read and understand the tax codes in the irs manual since it is written at about a 150 - 160 iq on the average.referenced to the standard test that is. Oh and btw....... Did anybody else perv this womans profile? If azzmaster laid eyes her butt he wouldnt sleep for a week! LOL i went through MENSA and i actually hated it. it was a group of pretentious know-it-alls that didnt quite mesh with me. my MENSA tested IQ was slightly less than my other IQs. my last IQ test was tested in 2000.. about 7 years ago, almost 8. i hate mensa.. most of the people i met in mensa were children of people that pushed them WAY too hard, such as myself. i took an IQ test at 6.. 15.. then 26 i got 3 different ratings 148 or so was the highest and 141 was the lowest. per most definitions i'd be a genius. i don't brag about it.. but it is what it is.

BlueCollar -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 10:05:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess not all animals have infrasubspecific populations (like different races or breeds).. whales and dolphins are a prime example. each whale/dolphin has it's own genus, species and sometimes sub-species. but they're all dolphin or whales. using the human definition of race all the different species of whale would be various races amongst the whale/dolphin populations because scientifically each one is classified differently. it's more than just phenotypical differences that brings us a killer whale versus a minke whale. they are much more seperated along genetic lines in comparrison to those of a dog, cat or human. there is only one species of human, what we describe as race are the leftovers from environmental evolution and also from genetics. it's just that those differences aren't great enough to warrant sub-sub species of humans. the reason that cats, dogs, and people can intermix is because they're all fundamentally the same species. i couldn't mate a sperm whale with a blue whale. sometimes in nature you get cross-breeds like mules or whatever.. but usually the product of that union are often sterile. do i realize the differences exist? well of course. i'd literally have to be blind not to. i just think the waters get muddied when you have people insisting on positions not based in fact and totally drawing conclusions that are grounded in personal belief or conjecture- not an understanding of the human genome... and that's fine. i don't expect everyone to be a quantum physicist, physical anthrologist, and lost culture expert. with that being said, i also wouldn't engage in debate with someone from those disciplines unless i knew what i was saying is backed up with hard, cold facts. i do see where you're coming from tho. Ahh, okay so just to clarify and use the example of the domesticated cat again , we could make a statement along the lines of "Persian Shorthairs Cats are to Balinese Cats as Caucasians are to Mongoloid." - and that would be an accurate, if somewhat simplistic way of looking at it. We still have physical definitions and traits that are recognised in each, but when all is said and done, the species is still comprised of one typ because those traits are so minor compared to each other within the species, yet greatly exaggerated when you start looking at the animal kingdom as a whole.

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 10:32:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess anything i said someone can easily google. genetic drift, linkage disequilibrium, phenotype, human genome, genotype, out of africa theory, physical anthropology, bell curve, infrasubspecific, quadramonial.. ... i love how you bold my typo.. nice of you.. ace quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Why so defensive? Are you insecure? First you admonish people to look up the words that you use that they are not familiar with, you list those specific words to boot, and then you go all defensive when someone does. lol what about what ive said thus far would lead you to believe that i am insecure.. i mean really.. seriously? i burned like 3 calories laughing at that. uh no, actually i find offense in the fact that people have NOT looked up what i've said and that is obvious. people can google what i've said for themselves. look at my earlier threads and perhaps gleen a bit of introspective goodness.. i and others were accused of using hi falutin terms to describe what we're talking about, yet you need said terms to convey the reality of human genome. it's not supposition, but reality. no, i don't find offense in the fact that people search the terms i listed. i would LOVE for you to tell me WHO on the oppositional side addressed my points? who among us eschewed our terms that are scientficially correct vs those that espouse rhetoric on the grounds of supposition. quote: ORIGINAL: Rule If it displeases you that someone takes your councel to heart, then why did you councel him thusly? I was not out to get you or to nit-pick. I simply asked for elucidation. uh.. my counsel and the counsel of others is rather apparent. like i said, save for a few typos, what we've said can be easily googled. how am i not trying to elucidate? what would i be here for other than elucidation? which i'm beginning to see is pointless by the way. to forgo having to put each point you made into a quote thingie.. i'll just address it here. i would hardly say i'm deficient. perhaps i'm deficient in regards to odd, unsubstantiated theory. however, i'm far from deficient. i'm one of those few folks that can operate using both sides of their brain. sorry, i don't fit in to your mold.. i'll try to.. i swear i'll try :: rolls eyes :: i'm far from an IQ snob. i do possess a high IQ, but i also feel my high IQ is bullshit in the big scheme of things

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 10:40:09 PM)
sorry marie.. you did come off as sarcastic to me. i know i often come off in a manner that i did not mean to. if i took what you said as sarcastic, then i do apologize. but it did come off that way to me. if you meant it in a different manner, then i do concede to that.

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 11:17:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlueCollar Ahh, okay so just to clarify and use the example of the domesticated cat again , we could make a statement along the lines of "Persian Shorthairs Cats are to Balinese Cats as Caucasians are to Mongoloid." - and that would be an accurate, if somewhat simplistic way of looking at it. We still have physical definitions and traits that are recognised in each, but when all is said and done, the species is still comprised of one typ because those traits are so minor compared to each other within the species, yet greatly exaggerated when you start looking at the animal kingdom as a whole. yes, breeds of cat or dog could be on par with breeds of human.. ie phenotypical traits. but if breeds of cat are not enough to make each phenotype of cat a different species of cat.. well this is what we're talking about. cats, humans and dogs are unlike a few other species. phenotypical markers may make various breeds/species/races all look different. BUT unlike deer or whales.. the genetic differences are so small that it doesn't warrant a differentiation. yes we all look different, we all live in different parts of the world and have different environmental factors that determine us. race per colloquial definitions, is scientifically moot. culturally or ethnically moot?.. hmm.. not really.. but SCIENTIFICALLY.. dammit we all are the same. we can interbreed, share blood and even share pheno/genotypes. sorry.. that makes us the same. i do really REALLY appreciate your openmindedness on the subject. unless you're being facetious... but i doubt that.

seeksfemslave -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 12:29:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Zensee: I dont have a problem with fancy speculations, its when they suddenly emerge as scientific facts that I take issue. Scientific "facts" don't just suddenly emerge from speculations - etc etc Z. They do as far Natural Selection is concerned. MsEbony "I am a genius" FG reminds me of Superwomen in that there is nothing that she cant do, superlatively well lol Joke Zensee not abuse he he he he he he he. She also thinks that if she repeats the same points over and over again, ie race does not exist because of the "similarity of the genotypes" or "blood transfusions are possible between the races" then everyone will see the truth of what is being said. Note that she has to use the concept of race to even make the points ! Racial categories are present in humans, are clearly visible and can be measured using anything from average tendencies revealed by IQ tests to assesment of political organisation or cultural/technical achievements. Derogatory if you choose to see it that way....but also true. The fact that some "whites" have an IQ as low as mine simply demonstrates the broad spread of results that appear when any human characterisic is measured.

seeksfemslave -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 12:55:46 AM)
quote: Zensee Abstract thought is a defining / essential trait of homo sapiens sapiens. It is absolutely crucial for our survival in our present form (homo technicalis) and in our development to this point. You are talking through your hat. Z. This is as perfect an example of the self justifying reasoning used by those that believe Darwinism is true as it is possible to get. I exclude the bit about my hat. Something that should not exist according to orthodox Darwinian theory, when found to exist is just rationialised away using the following unconsciously applied reasoning Abstract thought exists though in the past it could not possibly have conferred any survival benefits and many long surviving species have not got it at all. Say Dolphins whose brains I believe are thought to be as complicated as humans. Since it could be said to have give some , tho' IMO in many areas not much advantage now, and since it does exist there is not a problem because Darwinism true. See we believers were right all along. lol

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 12:56:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkWriter I love what you wrote right up to the end when you began to talk about equality. The way I see it, there is no equality, there never has been and there never will be. There will always be someone bigger and faster and stronger and smarter and harder working than you are, and to someone else, that bigger, stronger, etc., person will be you. There will always be one group that tops another, one sector of society that holds the reins of power and spends most of its time maintaining its position. There will always be haves and there will always be have-nots and that will always be the way of it. This is life and fair has nothing to do with it. Fairness is a fantasy cooked up in some long-ago schoolyard. The cold reality of life is that you play the hand you are dealt, do the best you can with what you have, and you don't whine about it. why can't we see those differences as somewhat genetic (ie.. slave owners breeding the fastest, biggest, most sturdy slaves with othres of the same ilk).. if we're bred faster and stronger then you can undoubtedly thank your ancestors for being studious in breeding my ancestors to be more productive in the fields. but i'm not going there, i feel we're beyond that. still has nothing to do with race, biologically speaking.. which is the jist of this thread.

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 2:16:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave MsEbony "I am a genius" FG reminds me of Superwomen in that there is nothing that she cant do, superlatively well lol.......... She also thinks that if she repeats the same points over and over again, ie race does not exist because of the "similarity of the genotypes" or "blood transfusions are possible between the races" then everyone will see the truth of what is being said. Note that she has to use the concept of race to even make the points ! yes i'm a uber smart.. and? your point? but moreover, let's address your little facts. actually, i make a point of cultural and ethno differences because i know do exist. but the differences are not enough to warrant a sub sub specific differentiation. you asked previously for definitions because i and others were too hi falutin.. well .. HELL look that shit up for yourself!! you were afforded the same education as i.. or perhaps you weren't. you want things spoon fed to you? like your bigoted ideologies probably were? let us face it, seriously, you were probably raised with the ideals you have and i'm SO sorry for that. you're derailing this discussion because you already have your views of blacks or whatever.. based upon what you've already said. are you aware and cognizant of proper debate and argument? obviously you aren't. you have had several premises proven flawed and not grounded in scientific fact- yet you still keep on truckin. how many of us need to show proof that race is biologically insignificant? are you daft? or are you that out of touch that you REALLY cling to those views you hold with the life of you? we're not saying that race is not culturally significant.. we're saying it is not BIOLOGICALLY SIGNIFICANT.. damn you idiots that accept the world is round but cannot accept the genome factor.. geeze.. and people say black folk are ignorant. god. go to university people or open a bloody book.. seriously.. turn that TV off, shut down that ipod and hook yourself up with some intellectualism. fuck. i draw attention to the fact that race is not relevant biologically speaking. i also use race in brackets or the little star things that i love to draw emphasis. i have never used race in the colloquial terms, i apologize, but mentally i'm beyond that.. sorry you're not. i also understand that the trivial human mind needs to quantify things so i can accept the fact that race is needed amongst the imbeciles to adjust things to their level. sorry.,. they're still totally stupid in my book.. and yes i may come off as a bitch saying that. i typically use race in finger quotes or i refer to race as 'human population' or 'culture' which is more correct than the term race because race is so outmoded and scientifically defunct. th lol Seeks, to say you're on par with me regarding this topic is preposterous. it really is, you've already proven that by calling what i and others are stating as FACT.. as pretty much psychobabble. OPEN YOUR EYES.. the world is NOT flat..open up that mind of yours damnit. i don't blame you for your myopic view. you're blatantly a product of how you were raised, the obvious hate or disdain you feel for other races is because you were probaby raised that way. and if you admitted to that.... you would. you probably won't, but hatred is taught and learned. NOT inherent. you have your views and you're wrapping yourself in that fallacious truth like a warm blanket. i hope you're all warm and snugly. quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Racial categories are present in humans, are clearly visible and can be measured using anything from average tendencies revealed by IQ tests to assesment of political organisation or cultural/technical achievements. Derogatory if you choose to see it that way....but also true. once again you've ignored my reasoning behind the discrepancies behind IQ.. and why intelligence quotient is not the end all be all. do i have to lead you by the hand and show you how moot capacity is versus environment? do i need to rehash how intellect and capacity is largely nurture? the environment we're raised in denotes our intellect.. ie nutrition, familiar upbringing or what not? god i pity you. i really bloody do.. and you aren't striking a nerve with me, you're just making me shake my head in disbelief. as far as superwoman is concerned. and you calling me super woman.. COOL, i've always wanted to be superwoman, seriously. i like used to have super woman underoos. why thank you, yes.. there is scarcely anything that i can't do if i put my mind to it. i suppose that makes me a superheroine. i've always wanted supra human powers... kudos for you elevating me to that level. back on topic hello, if i put my mind to it .. i can do it. just like anyone else afforded the same. oh. watch out now. sorry i don't fit into your pigeonhole.. really.. sorry i don't i'm the educated minority that you are perhaps afraid of or perhaps do not want to acknowledge.. cool. i like disrupting stereotypes. if you feel i'm repeating myself it is only because you are doing the same. i hear the same antiquated bell curve shit from you..i hope you cling to it until your dying breath.. because yes, you will die with that view while the rest of the world moves on. what a legacy to leave behind on your part. sorry i have the know how to express myself scientifically. and sorry, i don't suffer fools well and i will readily point out flawed logic or antiquated ideals which are unsubstantiated with fact. also sorry that you lack the same education in this field that i have. i'm really, really sorry for that. gee.. perhaps whites are cognitively defunct because you have obviously lost this battle with your outmoded views.. oh wait, that would be operating under your retarded premises. we all have the same capacity for knowledge.. pretty much exhibited by your lack of factual knowledge on this subject vs mine.. you're white and i'm black. but you're obviously out of your realm here.. seriously.. just give it up or open any anthropological text and then come back at me. let's face it, i'm speaking fact and you're speaking from observation. LOL.. ok.. write a thesis on conjecture and see how far you go. seriously.. it may seem that i'm being a bitch right now.. i'm really not, i just hope you can really see the science behind what we're saying vs the conjecture behind what you're saying. regardless of your little observations.. you're NOT NOT NOT a barometer of what would constitute race. you're just talking about YOUR experiences.. how self aggrandized are you that you feel your experiences bespeak of the WHOLE of humanity?? you've never addressed a single point i've brought up to you, yet you still toss out your own points you want addressed- why should i bother?.. you don't/ seriously, it's obvious that you've never had formal debate training. and i won't waste my education on trying to school you. you're obviously older than me in years.. hmm. i'm not so sure you're older than me intellectually. i hope you find the fem you seek. and i hope she's of the same ilk as you.. lest you'll have a hard time. edited to add.. sorry if i came off so harsh on you Seeks.. i partially meant it.. but moreover.. i really want you to openmindedly review your position. not because i am unwilling to accept the views of others.... moreover i wish you'd see another side of the spectrum

seeksfemslave -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 3:11:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave A few selected quotes... I believe , though do not know, that this definition only came about when Natural Selectioners began to realise that their theories led nowhere but back up their polyploidal orifices. Name calling and toilet humour Maybe but the "leading nowhere" bit is true What in your opinion accounts for the almost total failure of every independant nation in Africa. This has not happened in India, Singapore or Israel. as examples. Groundless slurs against an entire continent. Absolutely Not. True Scientific elites just dont know as much as they like to project and as many willing followers like to believe More name calling and guilt by association. ditto Dont say that you will upset those who have eyes,wont look, but will spew out A bit more name calling. Sort of ... You sensitive souls out there would answer no and if you knew enough about motor technology you would tell us why. Lame, condescending but still name calling, again. ditto And now - The Punchline! Whenever a little ad hominem attack creeps into the debate its reasonable to conclude that the opposition is rattled. Thank you thank you - I'm here all week. Sorry Seeks but you gotta admit this is a case of the pot calling the kettle a member of the same ethnic cetegory. Z. Zensee: I believe due to your appearance and philosphical outlook you could be described as the Stephen Sondheim of the CM boards. A producer of mosly dissonent material of no general appeal with the occasional good tune thrown in. My little joke MrZ

seeksfemslave -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 3:22:43 AM)
MsEbonyFG, for a self confessed uber smart intellectual type and genius to boot you seem to have no problems misinterpreting (sp?)things that I have posted. Not once have I said that what you have claimed about genotypical similarities across the racial divide is untrue. What I have said is that you draw the wrong general conclusions from that fact. A conclusion that unsurprisingly enough supports your philosophical outlook on these matters.

Rule -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 3:35:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Abstract thought exists though in the past it could not possibly have conferred any survival benefits Yes, it does. It can be relied on in any environment and situation, whereas instinctual behaviour is limited to the environments and situations in which it evolved. quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave and many long surviving species have not got it at all. Say Dolphins whose brains I believe are thought to be as complicated as humans. Dolphin brains are as large as human brains and if I recall correctly they have the same brain mass / body mass ratio, but their large cortex brain surface area is a lot smaller than that of a human - because they lack the grooves. Thus their brain is somewhat similar to that of a human, but definitely not as complex. (I was taught that we think with the outer three cell layers of the large cortex. Neither brain size nor brain mass therefore is an indicator of mental capabilities.)

seeksfemslave -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 3:58:31 AM)
When our antecedents , not our ancestors but those supposed earlier species which evolved into humans, needed to kill or be killed and copulate at every opportunity, the ability to reason or draw conclusions from viewing the stars offered no advantage at all. Orthodox Darwinism says that chance mutations that confer advantage are those that become reinforced and may ultimately lead to a new species. Thats the difficulty you refuse to face The fact that abstract thought can produce either technical advance or artistic beauty now is beside the point when the validity of Darwinism is challenged. Further why is it that Dolphins' brains have not developed. It happened to humans why not Dolphins. They must surely have been better off if brain development had occured.

Rule -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 4:47:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave When our antecedents, not our ancestors but those supposed earlier species which evolved into humans, needed to kill or be killed and copulate at every opportunity, the ability to reason or draw conclusions from viewing the stars offered no advantage at all. Reasoning abilities are present to various degrees in different species of animals and is applied by them in various circumstances. It is simply an evolved and evolving trait - determined by natural selection and other selective pressures. quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Orthodox Darwinism says that chance mutations that confer advantage are those that become reinforced and may ultimately lead to a new species. Thats the difficulty you refuse to face It is not as simple as that. Your statement refers to supermutations, but those generally do not cause speciation; instead they swamp a species like a tidal wave a low lying coast. Speciation usually occurs as a consequence of minor mutations that cause a gradual change in phenotype to populations in specific situations in which interbreeding with other populations that do not experience those same specific selection pressures is mutually disadvantageous to both populations. quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave The fact that abstract thought can produce either technical advance or artistic beauty now is beside the point when the validity of Darwinism is challenged. Not at all. End your obsession with supermutations. Nearly all changes in species and speciation is caused by a long series of minor mutations. You are ignoring all those many intermediate steps. quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Further why is it that Dolphins' brains have not developed. It happened to humans why not Dolphins. They must surely have been better off if brain development had occurred. Dolphins did not evolve on the equatorial African plains. That is why not. Their brains have a large size for entirely different reasons.

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