RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity.

RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 5:15:11 PM)
Yes, but HOW to break free of it? On an individual level I am trying to make sure it doesn't propagate in the way I bring up my progeny - just as I was brought up. I suppose one can only tell what the results may be with hindsight, aye? I'm impatient. Bad, bad kittin [:-] .

DesertRat -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 5:27:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol ...I am trying to make sure it doesn't propagate in the way I bring up my progeny - just as I was brought up. I suppose one can only tell what the results may be with hindsight, aye? Aye...er...yeah! My parents tried to raise my little sister and me to be bigots, in keeping with the tradition of my hometown. But they failed. I'm glad. They taught me alot of good stuff, but I'm glad they didn't succeed with that set of teachings. Bob

Najakcharmer -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 5:35:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Exactly what happens if you feed mexican food to a Polack? and I thought raw and pickled (uncooked) fish were a major part of the traditional Nordic diet. I think Jamicans do the same as anyone put on a typical American diet, they get fat. Speaking strictly from a taxonomy and biology point of view, there are definitely heritable factors common to human ethnic groups that may optimize (or de-optimize) them for specific foods. The ability to effectively partition macronutrients (or not) is another heritable trait, again influenced by natural selection in the original environment. Some drug pharmacokinetics are remarkably variable between ethnic groups, and remarkably consistent within those groups. Obviously there is also very significant environmental influence as well, but quite a bit is heritable - and measurable. Does this make somebody with one set of inherited traits better than somebody with another set of inherited traits? No, but obviously anybody will be better equipped to survive in an environment that their ancestors evolved to live in. That means approximately jack shit now that we have sunscreen, air conditioning and a McDonald's on every corner. There are actually some substantial physiological ranges that differ between ethnic groups that share a template of common heritable traits. The word "race" has so damn much political, emotional and religious meaning that I don't think we have a hope in hell of applying it rationally to Homo sapiens. I'm not quite sure whether we have sufficient justification for subspeciation of sapiens, but I am sure that really good science is not likely to be applied to the question because it is simply too much of a political hot potato. Bah. Religion and politics have no place in science, but unfortunately they usually pay the bills and dictate the research.

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 6:03:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave An eccentric is an eccentric a white person is white. To bait either springs from the same source NO? While many might construe my posts as indicating I am a racist I am confident you will not find one example of racial abuse directed at an individual or group in anything I have said. HAHAHAHA now that was funny

DarkWriter -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 6:13:20 PM)
By placing yourself in situations where you will have to socialize, do business with, be educated with or by, people of a different ethinicity. It is a matter of training, just like so many other things...

kittinSol -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 6:17:52 PM)
Nod nod. I was thouroughly trained in all of this; I was a 'black sheep' because of my birth alone. I fully realise though that because of my appearance I had it easy; after all, I have all the attributes of what's acceptable in a 'white' society. I always knew better though.

kittinSol -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 6:19:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer I'm not quite sure whether we have sufficient justification for subspeciation of sapiens, but I am sure that really good science is not likely to be applied to the question because it is simply too much of a political hot potato. Bah. Religion and politics have no place in science, but unfortunately they usually pay the bills and dictate the research. Hear, hear.

DarkWriter -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 6:29:27 PM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave An eccentric is an eccentric a white person is white. To bait either springs from the same source NO? While many might construe my posts as indicating I am a racist I am confident you will not find one example of racial abuse directed at an individual or group in anything I have said. HAHAHAHA now that was funny Funny, in an oddly disturbing way. One must differentiate between the behavior of someone and the mere ethnicity of a person. The behavior of an eccentric is driven by wholly different forces from the behavior of someone who is simply acting the way their culture taught them to act. For example, go to Korea, you will be stared at. It is in the culture over there. Here in the US, we find it creepy. That is a cultural difference and that is not what our in-house eccentric was doing at all.

DarkWriter -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 6:33:58 PM)
Then for you, it should be easy--for me as well and others around here. What I said was for the benefit of others whose minds are not quite so open about this. Aren't we all about open minds here, too?

kittinSol -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 6:35:27 PM)
To hit the hay, I go. I shall be back tomorrow to watch, in awe, how this 'political hot potato' gathered such interest on a forum board such as collarme.com. This shows the subject hit a mark, somehow, somewhere. 'Race' is a farce and it is up to us all to disgard it for what it is. Bonne nuit, les petits.

kittinSol -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 6:36:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkWriter Then for you, it should be easy--for me as well and others around here. What I said was for the benefit of others whose minds are not quite so open about this. Aren't we all about open minds here, too? Absolutely and I had no problem with most of the things you said today, DarkWriter. Buenas noches.

Najakcharmer -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 6:41:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule That is not true. Jewish people are a distinct population that have a gene pool that differs from the gene pools of other populations. What makes it worse is that they have erected religious barriers against exchanging genetic material with those other gene pools. And if you look at the medical pharmacokinetics of all the ethnic groups originating from the Middle East crescent, they're all fairly congruent. Some reasonably convincing arguments could probably be made for (as well as against) subspeciation here, but I doubt they will be, except by people whose agenda has nothing to do with good science. quote: You very clearly are not a population geneticist nor an evolution biologist. Pot. Kettle. Black. quote: I will give you a hint: removing the foreskin from a penis is not a tiny change. It is a major event in the biological fitness of a population and the evolutionary repercussions from that behaviour are severe. Jews (and Muslims) are five or six times more likely to produce children that die from inherited genetic diseases than christians of European descent. Citations, please? Peer reviewed journals will do nicely, thank you. quote: Many of them are also seen as inferior or diabolical by other populations. Verily, those populations that remove the foreskin from their males are cursed by the Creator whose creation they have disfigured. They are without grace, having circumcized their penis, but not their heart (that is somewhere in the New Testament by Saint Paul). Religion and science don't mix. The subject here is Homo sapiens taxonomy, not primitive superstitions.

Zensee -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 6:44:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave An eccentric is an eccentric a white person is white. To bait either springs from the same source NO? While many might construe my posts as indicating I am a racist I am confident you will not find one example of racial abuse directed at an individual or group in anything I have said. May I present some Selected Seeks quotes, from this very thread, refuting the above assertion. For your convenience, especially imflamatory statements have been rendered in red. quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave I will know that an inter cultural tendency to similarity exists when I see an Australian Aborigine strutting his stuff, pimping his Ho and reciting Gangsta rap or a Jamaican Yardie playing first violin in the Kingston Symphony Orchestra. *** The "facts" MrZ: when humans are viewed collectively, across a world wide spectrum, long lasting ,clearly identifiable and absolutely fundamental differences in behaviour, application and achievement are visible. * What in your opinion accounts for the almost total failure of every independant nation in Africa. This has not happened in India, Singapore or Israel. as examples. * Take the racial split in the USA: we now see in the UK exactly the same situation has developed. Segregation, family break down, high crime levels, low educational achievement, high level sports achievement. Is that a coincidence only ? If you blame "whitey" then explain why Jamaica or Dominica are in such a mess. * None of that alters my views on the failures starkly and horrendously exposed in Africa today. I am 100% in favour of Africans ruling themselves and I am 100% against trying to rationalise their failure to sensibly do so. * Look at Homo Sapiens as a whole and see that behavioral physical and intellectual differences dont exist in clusters or racial/ cultural groups Really? You might, I dont. * However, if you observe human body types, behaviour patterns, cultural and political structures and organisation and quantify those things statistically then you find differences and those differences have been laballed.....racial.NO? * Rule: what accounts for the observable differences in abstract reasoning capability then ? Assuming you accept such differences exist, which seems undeniable to me. * Now lets look at human group A and human group B who do not perform the same but are apparently constructed the same way, controlled by their virtually identical genotypes. Over the years observation/experience of these differences has given rise to some wicked behaviour, from both groups .This confounds you sensitive souls out there and since you dont know the cause of these different behaviour patterns and dont want to face obvious truths you flounder around trying to muddy the waters rather than draw straightforward conclusions about the human condition and groups therein. * If I see a group that sits in the Sun and eats grubs for breakfast and have done that for a good number of years and I see another group that builds nuclear weapons is it so unreasonable to conclude that those groups are not equal ? * Racial categories are present in humans, are clearly visible and can be measured using anything from average tendencies revealed by IQ tests to assesment of political organisation or cultural/technical achievements. Derogatory if you choose to see it that way....but also true. *** Observe that different subgroups of humans are not the same and comment on the fact that one subgroup in particular has demonstrated major weaknesses and you must be a racist. Every one of the above statements either identifies Africans as especially despotic, criminal and savage OR it supports an assertion that those faults are genetic OR it does both. No you haven't directed bigoted abuse at any individuals. Instead you have directed it at several countries, an entire continent and a particular band of colour in the human spectrum. How can you blandly sit there and claim you have NOT served up heaping helpings of racially motivated abuse when your own printed words clearly prove otherwise? Z.

Rule -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 6:46:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol See this? This would get you jailed in more civilised shores. You are lucky you're dumping in a 'let's tolerate intolerance' place. What do you know? You ought to have taken the nick parrotSol instead of kittenSol. I aint a parrot parroting the parrot doctrines. I know what I am talking about; you do not. The evidence is out there on the web for anyone with the wit to find it. Independently from me other people have come to the same conclusions as I did - and they were way ahead of me. As for Ps53. I blocked your posts last week and I had reason to. That is not likely to change. quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol how may we erradicate xenophobia? That is easy: worship me. I am without prejudice. quote: ORIGINAL: DarkWriter I can only say that xenophobia is a learned thing, not a natural thing, and that the only way to break ourselves of it as individuals is to spend as much real time with people of other races, to educate ourselves about language and culture, to travel, to try new foods that come from different places, and to teach our children that skin color is no more important than hair or eye color. That is one of the most despicable concepts imaginable. It is utterly evil. In fact, it is racist thinking. Anyone who was raised without racism doesn't think that way. quote: ORIGINAL: DarkWriter There is a precept in Jewish thought that says if you do something enough, belief will follow. In other words, do it with your body and let your mind catch up. Apply that to this and who knows how far we could go! Yes, believe long enough that the sun does not give light and heat and it will come true. (Yes, that was sarcasm.) Deny facts and truth and call yourself blessed and righteous. It is the golden road that leads to Satan. Best of luck with it. It aint my road.

Najakcharmer -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 7:10:57 PM)
Um. Reading this thread, a whole lot of you seem to be confusing behavior and culture with taxonomic division. It is without question that the genus Homo is currently monotypic, eg, we're all sapiens. It is within arguable question as to whether Homo sapiens has any subspecies. A lot depends on how you define subspecies. Taxonomy is largely about splitting the hairs on an organism's ass, whether or not the organism has either hairs or an ass, and the definitions tend to change depending on who's arguing. Of late mt-DNA work has become something of a final word, but there are plenty of folks (self included) who are hollering that there is still an awful lot of highly significant population variability that is not adequately bourne out in some of the mt-DNA based decisions. My personal pet peeve in this respect is Crotalus horridus atricaudatus, but that's beside the point. Anyhow, it's up for grabs whether or not there is such a thing as subspecies of Homo sapiens. What is not up for grabs is the notion that taxonomy has jack shit to do with cultural behavior, religious beliefs or learned responses to the environment. It doesn't. Your genetics are going to be able to determine certain things about you, but not others. If you don't know for a fact what genetics can and cannot influence, please go and read a textbook (or several of them) before arguing further on the subject. Morphology can and does determine a finite range of possible behavioral strategies to cope with the environment. Birds fly; for the most part mammals don't. There are some other heritable components to behavioral strategies such as those influenced by biochemistry, such as reproduction and aggression, but those tend to be polymorphic and variable in expression even within an isolated, genetically congruent population. There are a number of reasons for why the heritable components of behavioral strategies work this way, and if you care, Google some fun terms like "Red Queen hypothesis". Basically, human populations (or subspecies if you've decided to wholeheartedly accept that hypothesis despite current lack of evidence) are not going to be significantly different in their range of adaptive behavioral strategies. In plain English there is no fucking gene for the appreciation of rap music, or sushi, or prostitution, or Christianity, or criminal behavior. I will readily admit that you can probably find some televangelist somewhere who is doing all of the above at the same time, but he does not constitute evidence.

Zensee -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 7:16:56 PM)
You are talking sense, Najakcharmer. That doesn't fly here. The sooner you stop thinking the better you'll get along. Z.

Rule -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 7:24:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkWriter Then for you, it should be easy--for me as well and others around here. What I said was for the benefit of others whose minds are not quite so open about this. Aren't we all about open minds here, too? You are deluding yourself. I do not buy into that untruth. You aint an open mind, that is for sure. I know, because I have.

DarkWriter -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 7:26:22 PM)
You are an idiot. The only question is what kind and frankly I am too tired of you to bother searching for an answer.

DesertRat -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 7:32:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee You are talking sense, Najakcharmer. That doesn't fly here. The sooner you stop thinking the better you'll get along. Yeah, it flies here. By my reckoning, we're about 50/50 on scientific reasoning versus pulling anecdotes and "facts" out of asses to support intuitive "common sense" and prejudices. Bob

Rule -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/7/2007 7:34:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer And if you look at the medical pharmacokinetics of all the ethnic groups originating from the Middle East crescent, they're all fairly congruent. Some reasonably convincing arguments could probably be made for (as well as against) subspeciation here, but I doubt they will be, except by people whose agenda has nothing to do with good science. There is no subspeciation. I know that some mentally deficient supermen are trying to speciate, but that is a stupid ploy that will fail. quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer Pot. Kettle. Black. Humor. I appreciate it. However: You are a smart woman. Do not bore me, please. quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer Citations, please? Peer reviewed journals will do nicely, thank you. You can find them yourself. And if you cannot, you do not know as much about the matter as I have reason to assume you do. Stop boring me. You are smart. I am a supergenius. There is a difference. quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer Religion and science don't mix. The subject here is Homo sapiens taxonomy, not primitive superstitions. That shows what you know in this respect: far too little.

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