RE: Are they or aren't they submissive?

RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (Full Version)

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lovewithoutfear -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/8/2007 2:53:40 PM)
I encountered this situation socially when I was new to the scene...and I remember doing some of the same kind of overcompensating you describe. What I didn't encounter was the supposed "hordes of asshole doms who demand instant obedience from every sub." I think they're a myth. Or very rare. But the myth is part of what these girls are reacting to. LA wrote, "Submissives, specially newbies, can often run into the problem of thinking if they APPEAR submissive in any way, that they will be taken advantage of, walked over and be totally repressed. Due to this fear and anxiety, they overcompensate to show just how strong and not needy they are and how they will not hold to the stereotype. The fact that most groups DO cater to the sub stereotype and DO force a lot of sub peer pressure to "act right" doesn't help the problem much either. "

BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/8/2007 2:54:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuietlyIntense Mmmmm Naughty Angel, you inspired many evil thoughts in me. [sm=evil.gif] If only your master had been willing to part with your gorgeous self. Thank you..... I think. [&:]

SimplyMichael -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/8/2007 2:56:58 PM)
Young women (in a general stereotypical way) tend to date assholes and nice guys as friends. They sit in bars in groups and wait for the sort of guy who can walk across a bar and hit on a woman in a group. They equate domineering with dominance even if subconscously. Young women in the scene, especially hot ones get a LOT of attention, not mine but many. One changes ones behavior when it no longer serves your purpose and they do not yet realize it doesn't serve their purpose. Around 26 women tend to start looking back and wondering why they date assholes and why they have nice guys as friends and some work it out faster than others, some never do. So they come into the scene with the female BDSM fantasy, which is often rather Gorian in the sense of strong man taking the woman, the vanilla equivelent is being raped by a handsome single romantic rogue who is a talented lover and who later marries them. Castlerealm crap. They don't get that someone like me IS nice and kind and friendly and doesn't hit on or pressure them. They see that as weakness. Plus and or they get the "response" they want by being bratty. At some point some will realize that shit doesn't work, the men they want aren't interested and they change and the best ones (just kidding folks) become perfect for me.

biracalsub4wmDom -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/8/2007 2:59:17 PM)
SimplyMichael... I love your response. it made me laugh. :)

james2Jay -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/8/2007 3:31:05 PM)
dude seriously alright, run the fuck the other way. these women I ran into before. they always start off submissive but then just as soon as they get all used to your sex, they start to take over the situation and leading you. takes them a few months or so and they start to try to tell you what to do, how to do it and all kinds of shit. I am telling you now, they just arent meant to submit in the long run. I had some on deck for a while even for some time while they started in on the dominating crap because they had the pussy. Then it got too damn outta control. I say never again. Unless I get desparate for some meat.

Padriag -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/8/2007 5:37:31 PM)
You know Michael, there's a lot of truth to what you said, though on a couple of points I don't think you were entirely accurate. LA said something that is also very true. We seem to be taking off on our own tanget here, but what the hell. Some of these girls, especially those hot 20 somethings, use that bratty behavior as a defense. They're nervous, defensive and trying not to show it. They want to surrender, they want someone to "conquer" them because its a way of surrendering and dealing with their fear at the same time. They don't want just anyone to "conquer" them, and they're fending off a lot of attempts which makes them even more guarded. What they want may seem like the Gorean ideal, but the reality is they don't know enough to really know what they want and for those who realize this, its an advantage. The trick is disarming them without scaring them to death (at which point they either run or get so defensive you're permanently shut out), while at the same time not tolerating their bratty behavior. Some would be surprised how quickly that bratty attitude can and does evaporate when they are faced with calm, cool, unrelenting dominance... and note particularly the calm and cool part. Some of them can turn into very good submissives, if you know how to handle them. Course most "doms" don't have a clue what the behavior is really all about, can't stay calm and cool (too busy being mr arrogant domly dom), come on far too strong, aren't firm enough when they need to be, and don't know how to lead. Which in my book doesn't make them very good "doms"... but that's just my opinion. For those smart enough to get these submissive to the stage where they are receptive, they're literally waiting to be told what to do. Trick is getting them to that stage, and many just can't, hence the perennial threads from doms ranting/whinning about not finding anyone and submissives who aren't "real". Reminds me of a quote from the Bible, "My people perish from lack of knowledge.." (Hosea 4:6). Which is probably odd to hear coming from an atheist. [8D] But then I'm full of surprises.

WhipSwitch -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/8/2007 7:07:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: curvyslavegirl I can be awefully rude and demanding when disrespected or faced with the slew of cyberstuds that tend to appear on places like this. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I am submissive. Just as when a Dominant isn't always expecting the world to bow to his feet, i don't lay down and roll over for every guy who shows up with a Master tag attached to the front of his name. For example when someone sends me an instant message that says "is the slave slut there" or sends me some odd third person rant, I generally reply with something equally obnoxious followed by /ignore. There is nothing SAMish about me once the respect and authority is established, but those who assume they have my respect without establishing a relationship first are gonna get a healthy dose of bitch out of me! ;) I am finding this whole thread quite interesting. I am relatively new to the "courtship" process in D/s groups, but my first thought on reading the description of the situation was that perhaps these women (girls?) are in fact interested, don't necessarily have a clue of what they really want, and are looking for someone who can "domesticate" them. It is possible that the "right" Dom would see this as a challenge and find ways to get them to submit with all their hearts. This would not be done with standard "Dom courtship ritual" (whatever that is, but I'm thinking in terms of contract negotiation, etc.) so much as a combination of explicit respect and paternal authority. Basically, lay down the line quickly. This would, of course, only occur after they are convinced (hopefully correctly so) that this Man will treat them with respect while insisting on complete submission. With that submission will come worthy rewards. The rewards would not be financial, of course, but a sense of security and purpose, with the knowledge that they will be cared for and directed as necessary without malice and with their best interests in mind (within the construct laid down by the Dom). I'm probably talking out of my ass, as I don't have any actual experience in this situation. I am speaking from an intuitive impression. The trick is sorting out these girls - which ones are looking for a free ride and which ones are looking for some one who can control them (and they might not know themselves). I have the impression that many of the youngsters on the scene come from environments in which their parents handled everything for them and gave them everything they wanted (at least in the upper-middle-class group), and they need constant reassurance and positive feedback. For those from wealthier families, that means money. Your job is to re-educate them in what is important.

Padriag -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/8/2007 7:21:47 PM)
WhipSwitch, your intuition is headed in the right direction. Spend some time listening to and observing the kinds of submissives you're interested in to fine tune it and you'll probably do fine. There is, so far as I know, no standard "dom courtship ritual". But that probably owes more to a combination of rampant individualism and a general lack of knowledge regarding methodology or female psychology. There's a reason such an overwhelming volume of lifestyle literature deals with the psychology, emotions and role of submissives, particularly submissive women. A lot of time, effort and energy has been spent trying to figure them out by dominants who very much want to attract them and control them. Some are better students of that than others... some are a lot better. And perhaps one of the biggest ironies, some of the fundamentals to attracting submissive women, are the same that work with any woman. Life's funny that way.

Grlwithboy -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/8/2007 7:25:17 PM)
I see things like this and I just bail before I'm even wondering. I am short on time and taming the shrew can be someone else's life. Playful brats don't deserve the bum rap of being equated to this.

SirEbonyPhoenix -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/8/2007 7:49:14 PM)
I echo the majority of comments when I say that they verylikely are not really submissive, but are seeking their own sexual gratifcation. I say this because I am currently dealing with a bottom who only wants sex, but nothing to do with being a sub/slave. To me, they need to go back to the vanilla world and get their sexual needs fulfilled there as opposed to here, but then, that's my humble, though very blunt opinion.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/8/2007 8:44:11 PM)
I've found there's always wisdom in fairy tales Padriag :)

robertolapiedra -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/8/2007 9:20:39 PM)
quote: So enough rambling already Intense, get to your questions. Are these women really submissive or are they situationally submissive or are they bottoms or none of the above? And as a dominant, would you even bother with this type of female and hope beyond hope that there was a treasure underneath that rude, demanding exterior? Hello QuietlyIntense. Most of these "girls" are young and "peer opinion" sensitive (like young males). Most are not that "submissive" as this orientation maybe has not fully developed yet. Some feel awkward, unsure and defensive. Some have a tit&ass based ego thing going, and have power tripping issues (attraction is power). Some will change orientation and disappear, a few will go on, mature and later say to themselves : "What the fuck was I thinking?" We all did stupid things when we were young. Ignore them, it helps them adjust. RL.

arayofsunshine55 -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/8/2007 9:48:14 PM)
What difference does it make what you call them? They aren't compatible with you which is the important bottom line.

SirEbonyPhoenix -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/9/2007 6:39:45 AM)
Really? I didn't think they were! That's verrrry interesting! :-? Lol

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/9/2007 7:19:59 AM)
I'm still mulling over things said in this post. It actually made me almost sick to the stomache and I'm not sure yet why. I definitely do not equate myself with rude nor abrassive personas. Nor the young aspect. So, I wonder why I'm cringing as if chastised by the thread. Aside from wanting to get rid of my vanilla cone (this would be my 26th post) I'm not even sure why I'm responding, because I'm not sure I have anything productive to add. I remember an old saying along the lines of, 'children do childish things." Young people, thrown into new experiences make mistakes. Perhaps the rare gem will read such a string as yours. See her behavior in your words, and find some form of an epiphany by which to re-evaluate her own behavior. I know that doesn't help you much in your current frustrations.

BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/9/2007 8:05:31 AM)
Well I can't say if these ladies are really submissive or not, or suffering from peer pressure, or fighting something inside themselves, etc. What I do see is a, dare I say, selfish-it's all about me-attitude that has no hint of submission or service. I think some of them want all of the good/fun stuff on their terms, without much, if any responsibility on their part to give anything in return. Whatever they are or aren't, I don't see many of them in actual relationships, and they do spend a good deal of time at social events talking about their demands and complaining about not getting them met. [&:]

Padriag -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/9/2007 8:13:38 AM)
The OP seems to have wandered off and its hard to say exactly what sort of "submissives" he was describing. At a certain point several of us seemed to have wandered off on our own tanget and filled in the blanks with a specific group, then discussed that. Its dangerous leaving a bunch of domly types to their own devices ya know. [;)]

BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/9/2007 8:36:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag The OP seems to have wandered off and its hard to say exactly what sort of "submissives" he was describing. At a certain point several of us seemed to have wandered off on our own tanget and filled in the blanks with a specific group, then discussed that. Its dangerous leaving a bunch of domly types to their own devices ya know. [;)] Didn't I see you in that late night DVD infomercial....... *"Doms Gone Wild"*? [sm=lol.gif]

EclipseAbove -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/9/2007 9:26:03 AM)
I've seen a few people who acted much in the way that the OP was describing. They were either vanilla and looking for attention, brats/SAMs/want to be forced, or had no idea and were just trying to figure themselves out. It was pretty obvious to me after a few months which was which. The attention seekers were gone when the attention dried up. The brat/SAM types didn't leave or change. And the rest eventually changed their behavior to match whatever they had figured out about themselves (some more Domme-like, some more submitting submissive, some more of a bottom). So, it is really hard to say just from the behavior what is really going on underneath. I wouldn't persue anyone who behaved as the OP described but only because that isn't the kind of dynamic I want.

Padriag -> RE: Are they or aren't they submissive? (8/9/2007 9:51:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel Didn't I see you in that late night DVD infomercial....... *"Doms Gone Wild"*? [sm=lol.gif] Possibly... or maybe it was "Doms In The Wild" (refer to the hunting thread) [8D] But you know... Doms Just Wanna Have Fun. [;)]

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