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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 3:38:14 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		As Nietzche pointed out 'In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.' but more pertinent is his point 'Fear is the mother of morality.' One shouldn't base ones behaviour on something as irrational and ludicrous as morals, wherever they are derived from.

But to answer your question, morals aren't dependent on religion, though if they aren't, they might as well be.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 3:45:39 PM   
adamastronut


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Status: offline 		It might be interesting to note that for as much as our society "values" its religious identity, only 2 and a half of the 10 Commandments are actual law.  Pornography is a trillion dollar industry, which is still behind cigarettes and alcohol.  Some of the bullet points do coincide, but that doesn't mean that any organized religion has a monopoly on morality.  The two are autonomous.  People act "morally" because of the response they receive from others and whether or not they like that response.  At the end of the day though, do you really want to identify with a group that is approaching the billion dollar mark in child abuse settlements?

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 3:49:34 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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Status: offline 		I think the Golden Rule is a fairly universal concept, and that is what I try to follow.  I have always considered myself a Deist, but I recognize that I have subconcious beliefs that are rooted in my upbringing.  I was raised in a upper-middle class, non-practicing Methodist family in the southern United States.  Whether I want to admit or not, I view the world through the filter that comes from that type of upbringing.  Most of us alter our beliefs as we age, but those old voices from youth still linger in the mind.

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 8/8/2007 3:53:10 PM >

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 3:52:55 PM   
farglebargle


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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 3:56:31 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Hmmmm, my interpretation of Nietzsche differs from yours.

He was advocating throwing off the shackles of centrally imposed, Christian morality; he wasn't advocating nihilism, nor chasing every whim and desire.

He didn't advocate doing whatever you want; he encouraged people to create their own personal ethics and morals.

Edited to add: the man actually went mad attempting to achieve the very thing being discussed in this thread; he attempted to fill the void created by the crisis of religious faith that swept through Europe in the 18th and 19th century: he took on the burden of creating post-god morals for the whole of mankind.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 8/8/2007 4:16:19 PM >

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 4:23:00 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Hmmmm, my interpretation of Nietzsche differs from yours.

He was advocating throwing off the shackles of centrally imposed, Christian morality; he wasn't advocating nihilism, nor chasing every whim and desire.

He didn't advocate doing whatever you want; he encouraged people to create their own personal ethics and morals.


Morals are generally a judgement of goodness and badness of a certain action or actions. To have morals, is to presume one has prejudged what is good or bad because apparently one already knows what is good or bad and not made behavourial judgements on the overall benefits(or not) for oneself. My guess is that someone generally doesn't kill or rape someone or more pertinent for most of us, steal something from someone else because we weigh up the possible consquences, not because of our morals.

I think Nietzche was thinking that we should base our actions on rational thought and not some irrational morals we were taught before we could think for ourselves.

EDIT OK, its late and I've had a drink but I think the last sentence makes sense even if in the first paragraph I'm tripping over my own tongue.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/8/2007 5:07:14 PM >

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 4:32:28 PM   
sleazybutterfly


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Status: offline 		I would say that my morals are based on my faith.  I try to live by the ten commandments and what I believe is right and wrong.  It's sort of hard to explain, really.

For example, my faith probably doesn't think that being gay is not a sin, but I don't really have that as bad in my morality code.  My faith is okay with eating meat, I believe it is morally wrong.  There are combinations of things that give me my morals, though I would hope that most people in the world live by basic ones such as not hurting others.

Probably I would say my morals are based in my faith, with influences of what I have experienced in my life.  I suppose that is the best and easiest way to explain it.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 4:37:45 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		i just try and treat people as i wish to be treated. Sounds simple but it works for me.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 4:40:18 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I think the Golden Rule is a fairly universal concept...


Actually, the common English version of this rule is reprehensible: "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." Generally I prefer that others leave me the hell alone instead of trying to imagine the things they can do for me.

I much prefer a formulation of the rule that observes the necessary inaction to which I would prefer to adhere, something like: "What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others." That one is attributed to Confucius.

What is key is that you don't have to perform any positive act to respect others, instead you do absolutely nothing at all.

Live and let live.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 4:44:53 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

I would say that my morals are based on my faith.  I try to live by the ten commandments and what I believe is right and wrong.  It's sort of hard to explain, really.



You have to ask yourself who decided what is right or wrong in the first place and why. If you think the ten commandments are really the word of god, then that is your choice but then you have to ask yourself how the majority of the ten commandments appeared in Egyptian pantheon religion in the first place!

A friend's father died when my friend was still young. My friend's mother always invoked his father's thoughts to control him 'You're father wouldn't agree with that.' or 'You're father would be angry with you if you did that.'. My friend eventually realized he could never verify what his father would have thought because his father was dead and his mother was using guilt to control her son for her benefit.

That is how religion works.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 6:15:36 PM   
SoftKajira


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Morals can exist outside religion, mine do. I just do as I believe a good person should, most of the time anyway.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 6:31:55 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Even though I grew up Catholic, religion didn't make that much difference to me as far as "morals" go.
Most of the time I couldn't even understand what the hell the Nuns and Preists were talking about anyway!
"What? What's the fuck's she talking about now, some guy who lived to be 700 years old?" "Yeah, right!"
I think "Religion" has ruined any sense of "God" for me.
I'm no longer "religeous". You'd think the opposite would be true as you age.
One phrase I hate to hear is "moral responsibility."
Ever notice that when people use that phrase they're either trying to get you to do something against your will or they're trying to manipulate others for their "cause".
"We have to help the people in Dar-fuuuur."
"Fuck 'em! Let them help themselves!"
"My moral responsibility tells me to help people in my country."
I could never understand that, why people want to get us involved in helping people in foreign countries.
And of course they always get those sickening lefty Hollywood types involved!
They're like the "Holy Rollers" banging on your door only now we're assaulted through the medium of television.
("Get the fuck out of here!")
Looks like we need to be "building bridges to the 21 st century" alright, only in the U.S. not in foreign countries.
So, I really don't know where my "morals" come from other than my parents although the old man was a real ladie's man and drinker though.
And for religions the Catholics and Baptists are real big on everyone "going to hell."
Bad thoughts, masturbation, swearing? Go to hell.
And they wonder why people don't want to go to church anymore?
And another thing, just who gets to decide what "morals" to follow?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 8/8/2007 7:20:30 PM >

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 6:49:18 PM   
sharainks


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Status: offline 		Some of mine come from my family who taught me that there is never shame in work no matter what the work might be.  If it is honest it is worthy.  I was taught to be dependable, honest, to be kind to others, and that helping those who need help is part of being a human being in this world.  Empathy does help.  When you stop and think what it would be like to walk in someone else's shoes you see them and not the problem they have.

The rest comes from my religion, which oddly enough teaches pretty much the same thing.  I'm not sure I can separate the two things, both are interwoven in my psyche from my earliest memories. 

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 6:57:21 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		It's an interesting question in principle, camille. Can I attempt to answer it even though I have no morals whatsoever?

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 7:52:49 PM   
DesertRat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Can I attempt to answer it even though I have no morals whatsoever?


I don't think that's entirely true.

Bob

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 7:57:00 PM   
sublimelysensual


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Status: offline 		Interesting thoughts, camille. Do I think one can exist without the other? Absolutely, I'm not actively religious, I don't necessarily think "I'm going to hell" if I do something bad. IE..my morals have nothing to do with that type of religious pressure. I act on what I think is right. On the flip-side of that, if you look at what most people consider morally wrong..lying, cheating, stealing, murdering..they all stem from religion, they're ideas that have been passed down for a veeeeeery long time. My question would be..would what is morally right or wrong be different without that influence from the past? Kind of a chicken or the egg type of thing, I guess. A lot of people feel homosexuality is wrong..yet look back at ancient Italy/Greece, it was widely practiced and accepted as the norm. When did that change in our culture? With the advent/popularity of christianity. We'll never how accepted it would be now had that not happened. Okay, didn't mean to turn your question or highjack the thread, just made me think..and just my two cents, as always...
 
-a

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 8:00:27 PM   
sleazybutterfly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

I would say that my morals are based on my faith.  I try to live by the ten commandments and what I believe is right and wrong.  It's sort of hard to explain, really.



You have to ask yourself who decided what is right or wrong in the first place and why. If you think the ten commandments are really the word of god, then that is your choice but then you have to ask yourself how the majority of the ten commandments appeared in Egyptian pantheon religion in the first place!

A friend's father died when my friend was still young. My friend's mother always invoked his father's thoughts to control him 'You're father wouldn't agree with that.' or 'You're father would be angry with you if you did that.'. My friend eventually realized he could never verify what his father would have thought because his father was dead and his mother was using guilt to control her son for her benefit.

That is how religion works.


I think that humans knew before them in some sense or another what was right or wrong.  How do you know that God did not put in their hearts what was supposed to be morally correct?  If we are to say that people were born with morals of some sort already, they had to have come from someplace.  I call that place/person God, you call it what floats your boat.

I know that Christians on this board usually get "attacked" (for lack of a better word), don't anyone even try to act like they don't, I have seen it time and time again. 

I answered the question like everyone else did, though in my answer I mentioned something from the Bible (goodness forbid).  My faith does not have to be anyone elses, but I will never not mention it just because I am worried what others might think.  I have studied, converted, and looked into many others..but I come back to the one I have now.  It is what gives me hope, comfort, and the strength to get thru every single day.  It's those things, plus the love I feel in return and the grace I am shown, that keeps me in this world.  I am a child of a very loving God, saved by the blood of my Savior, filled with His Holy Spirit.

In the end, that's all I need to know.

_____________________________

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Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 9:05:48 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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Status: offline 		I think people's morals are shaped by alot by their environment. I didn't grow up in a religious family. We belonged to a Luthern church when I was very young, but that ended when my father caught an elder who had thrown a fit about a church member living with someone she wasn't married to cheating on his own wife. I'm trying to get back into religion more now, but that's not where my morals come from. The Bible says it's wrong to have sex outside of marriage. I'm against sex outside of a monogamous relationship, but I don't have to be married so this moral didn't come from religion.  My views came from my peers in junior high and high school. If word got out that a girl slept around, she was ridiculed by other girls and made fun of by boys. While I would never be cruel the way they were, I have always viewed sex as a part of a relationship and am unable to think of it as nothing more than a physical act. I'm fairly certain my sexual morals are a result of the environment I grew up in.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 9:31:45 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Before we get too much farther into insane philosophers from day of yore, How would moraility develop without religion ?

Well it can happen.

I don't want to lie for two reasons, one is that I want my words to be believed, and two, lying to someone seems to confer some sort of obligation to them. I am not owned, I answer to noone, period.

I don't want to steal because I want to be trusted. I have stolen in my younger days, but don't because I know the consequenses. And I don't mean legal consequenses. I mean being known as untrustable is the worst thing that could happen. I never got to that point, and I certainly do not want to.

I don't want to hurt anyone because I have no enemies. The worst I have been screwed lately was for $1,500 and it just isn't worth it.

Kinda funny how when you start treating people right you get people who might die for you, rather than want to kill you.

That is the most basic blueprint for morality I can do. I hope you find the simplicity refreshing.

T

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 9:33:52 PM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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Status: offline 		i got my morals from my grandmother. she was a very wonderful woman and always cared about me.

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