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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 8:00:01 AM   
aSlavesLife


Posts: 347
Joined: 12/1/2006
Status: offline 		I think that our morality comes from a variety of sources, being influenced by our society, parents, peers, and individual temperament. Any society that does not develop a value system that prevents self destruction would likely collapse upon itself, causing self preserving societies to become more prevalent and pass their behavior codes on to future generations. This is especially visible in many early civilizations that have rules pertaining to members of their civilizations and other, less fair rules for foreigners. In many cases it was quite fine to kill and enslave your countries neighbors, but not your fellow countrymen. Religion helps to enforce these rules, with rulers issuing edicts that say not only will I have you beheaded, but once you die, Shamash/Enki/Odin/Jupiter/Horus/Yahweh/Allah/the Invisible Sky Fairy will spank you.

Owner of slave L

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 8:26:29 AM   
Durus


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Status: offline 		I think morality flows from our understanding of natural law and the application of reason. I can show you where different religions have changed their set of morals based on cultural shifts rather then changes to their theology. I can show you where individual cultures’ with different religions have developed very similar morals, despite no contact between the cultures, indicating that there is a commonality. I think religions and/or faith is important or even in some cases essential, but they are not the foundation of morality.

Unfortunately with our fast food culture we tend to like things neatly packaged and religion does that for us. Not to mention that there is and always will be people that desire to control others and blind adherence to a moral code without foundations is very helpful.

(spelling edit)

< Message edited by Durus -- 8/9/2007 8:27:42 AM >

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 8:59:21 AM   
camille65


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From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		Durus if you have links handy for that I would enjoy reading more.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 9:47:38 AM   
Durus


Posts: 184
Joined: 7/9/2007
Status: offline 		Not off the top of my head but I can give you some examples that you can look up and form your own conclusions. Christian polygamy, Mormon Polygamy, Buddhist kamikaze pilots, and Puritan communitarians, are all good examples of faiths changing theirs morals due to cultural rather then religious reasons. As far as similar morals go you may as well start at the beginning with the “golden rule” (ethic of reciprocity) shared between the majority of religions and cultures.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 10:01:59 AM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

I've added a question  .

I'm really enjoying the responses here and I am glad that it hasn't gotten snarky which is always a possibility when religion is part of the conversation.
All of the responses have given me things to think about (one of my favorite pastimes lol) and it also brings up more questions for me.

Can society develop a moral code without using religion?
 
That one popped up in the middle of the night while battling a nasty never (seemingly) bout of insomnia. Thanks to all of you for giving me something to occupy my mind all night  .

Thanks too, to those that while feeling uncomfortable exposing their belief system having the courage to do so anyway. Seriously.

This isn't about who is right or wrong but more on how/why we consider things/actions  right or wrong!


Yes, of course society can develop a moral code before religion.
Just look at European societies before Christianity.
If they didn't have some type of moral code they probably wouldn't have survived.
The two that come to mind are the Vikings and The Celtic Irish.
The Celtic Irish had "Brehon Law" that covered almost every aspect of life from how to treat and care for the elderly to land laws.
It's facinating to read. In many ways Brehon Law was more advanced than what we have today. Look it up sometime.
The Vikings must have had laws to prevent them from killing each other or they wouldn't have survived.
Plus, both of those societys had religions before Christianity came along. Funny that Christianity felt the need to "convert" those societys who already had their own religions and laws that had already existed long before Christianity.
I wonder why every religion thinks that it is "the *true* religion?"



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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 10:17:50 AM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

I think that our morality comes from a variety of sources, being influenced by our society, parents, peers, and individual temperament. Any society that does not develop a value system that prevents self destruction would likely collapse upon itself, causing self preserving societies to become more prevalent and pass their behavior codes on to future generations. This is especially visible in many early civilizations that have rules pertaining to members of their civilizations and other, less fair rules for foreigners. In many cases it was quite fine to kill and enslave your countries neighbors, but not your fellow countrymen. Religion helps to enforce these rules, with rulers issuing edicts that say not only will I have you beheaded, but once you die, Shamash/Enki/Odin/Jupiter/Horus/Yahweh/Allah/the Invisible Sky Fairy will spank you.

Owner of slave L


Very very well said. I think many here in the US have decided to not teach thier children respect, honor, or a code of personal morals. I think it is a backlash from the 40's and 50's when the new Generation of hippies raised thier children they wanted them to be "Individuals" they wanted to be "friends" with thier kids.. not "oppressors" Sorry to say that idea back fired. Now we have a whole hord of 30 somethings who have no idea of right and wrong, ettiquite, manners, and how to treat others fairly becuase they are so self centered and were never taught to respect thier elders, and those in authority. These folks are raising thier kids to have even less scruples because they are too busy at the Tennis club, or working to pay for the Hummer2 or the beach house. If I could kick Dr. Spock in the groin I would. Mind you I would be the last person to say some stupid remark like spare the rod spoil the child.. or children should be seen and not heard. But being respectful, and learning how to treat others is a must in society. This is why the Religous Right wing have had such a huge black lash and have gone off the deep end. Temperance is an unknown concept to religious factions.. it almost always has been unfortunatly.

My presonal morals came from my mother teaching me to be a good person, and from studying various spiritualities, and philosophers. I combined them all together to what fit with what is in my heart. I took the journey myself. I didnt let anyone blindly lead me down a path, and dictate to me what I should be or feel. I think that is so important in something so personal.  

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/10/2007 5:44:01 AM   
yrstocollar


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Joined: 8/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Yes, of course society can develop a moral code before religion.
Just look at European societies before Christianity.
If they didn't have some type of moral code they probably wouldn't have survived.
The two that come to mind are the Vikings and The Celtic Irish.
The Celtic Irish had "Brehon Law" that covered almost every aspect of life from how to treat and care for the elderly to land laws.
It's facinating to read. In many ways Brehon Law was more advanced than what we have today. Look it up sometime.
The Vikings must have had laws to prevent them from killing each other or they wouldn't have survived.
Plus, both of those societys had religions before Christianity came along. Funny that Christianity felt the need to "convert" those societys who already had their own religions and laws that had already existed long before Christianity.
I wonder why every religion thinks that it is "the *true* religion?"


Actually the vikings seemed hell bent on killing each other and their neighbours so I wouldn't call them the most law abiding people! I would say they had a huge influence on the Irish too as they actually colonised most of the UK... one thing I found interesting about travelling in Gaelic speaking Ireland was how similar it sounded to Old Norse... plus I'm learning Norwegian at the moment and it's amazing how many english words come from norwegian.... so you could probably trace all of what you're talking about to the Vikings.

But as you say... they did have religion so I don't see how you can say this shows a society developing a moral code before religion...

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/10/2007 6:56:38 AM   
BlueCollar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Can morality exist without religion?

I've been in a debate (for awhile now lol) on whether one can exist without the other. Are yours based upon religion? Can a society set a moral code & have it adhered to without the confines of religion?


I believe that while morality can exist without religious belief or the foundations of faith, many of the social conventions we have today have been refined through centuries or millenia of religious dogma and canon law. 

Could have written a lot more on that subject, but I just wanted to give you the gist.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/10/2007 7:12:22 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		Please elaborate? I really am finding all of this fascinating. I've read answers that I had expected and several that I had not thought of before and it is great learning from other perspectives.
Unfortunately I came to the internet long long after college (pretty much pre-internet days) so I don't know how to really research concepts/things online. Heh so it appears I am using all of you as my own form of research

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this!

Yayyy my edit button is still up, so:        When I speak of religion it does not mean just Christianity folks, it means all religions please n thank you.

< Message edited by camille65 -- 8/10/2007 7:54:29 AM >

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/10/2007 7:50:10 AM   
ChallengeMe


Posts: 25
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline 		Not only does morality exist outside of religion, I have seen that it often withers and dies INSIDE religion. When morality is reduced to "something someone else told me to do" ...no matter how powerful the someone is...it becomes easily twisted.


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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/10/2007 9:19:29 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Where do 'your' morals come from?


I got mine from Viktor Frankl... he isn't using them any more.



quote:

Can society develop a moral code without using religion?


I would suspect that the methods of implementing a societal moral ethos are probably going to prove irresistible to religion.



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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/10/2007 7:35:24 PM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline 		It would seem religion or at least Western religion is not a good foot hold for some to place morality. At least in the popular view. How many more Jimmy Swaggart's do we need? Ick. However not all religions are tainted. Nor is religion or more to the point Spirituality totaly invalid as a place to come from and learn how to be a good person. Most of the worlds Spiritualities are mere stories to teach people on how to be good people. Even Christianity started out that way, sad it got hijacked by a bunch of power hungry evil men.There are pleanty of spiritualites out there that don't carry tons of dumb assed Dogma like "if you don't eat fish sticks on Friday you're going to hell" kind of crap. With the Religious Right's backlash so many of us < me included > are so sick of them trying to cram befliefs down our throats. But it doesnt mean any belief is invalid. With Morals, Sprituality, and the base idea of _who you wish to be as a person_ being such a personal and important thing why would any thinking person intrust it just any one? You should search for these answers yourself and see what fits *you* individualy. You might find no one thing may be an exact fit. That is fine.. gather what makes sense and make it your own.

Also being a bit of a historian Vikings werent all that bad.. yes they pillaged and all.. but they were peace loving people in thier own land. They had very complex laws, and rules that governed how each in the caste system were to be treated. They did take slaves.. but that was common then. Charlemagne was much worse then Vikings. But he didnt raid English Curches where they wrote large amounts of damning documentations about it.. so Vikings are painted in a very bad light. Normaly History is written by the Victors.. here it is written by those who got thier asses kicked.  If you would like to read up some on it go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/vikings down in misconceptions is some good begining info. Being that the vikings wrote in runic thier info was harder to pass along.. but the very people they were sacking were the scribes. So of course it made it into history how brutal they were. ( I'd bitch if someone sacked my monestary too! )

just my two ducats...

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/10/2007 9:26:08 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Yes it can but since religion is ingrained in man for so many generations, it is difficult to say where exactly "right" and "wrong" comes from. From my readings, it really seems to be along cultural lines, which many religions and denominations of religions, have flowed along cultural lines. One of the odd things I have found is that when someone in the "west" mentions religion, it must automatically mean one of the Abrahamic religions.

If you are thinking Christianity, many that follow the various denominations, do not even know the history of their own rules, how they came about and why they came about. If you are thinking of Judaism, some of the same applies but you have to go much further back, probably to the exposure of the Babylonians to understand the significance of cultural virtues, as an influence upon religion, and/or on cultural morals.

If you look more to the east, you will find much of the morals and rules being religious and manmade. Lao tzu was a man, not a god, and he wrote the Tai TeChing. Buddha meditated and got his wisdom, and Confuscious had alot to say.

Nature should also have alot to do with virtues, and from there you should develope morals, and from them a set of ethics.

If you replace religion, with just believing in a higher power, an ideal that is greater than an individual, then you will have external influence. Also, with as religiously as some people follow some ideals, the effects can be the same. Following ideals to an end, to guide your life.

There are many wise words ion religious text, but I tend to look at them in a more philosophical aspect.


Orion

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