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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/8/2007 10:08:33 PM

CuriousLord

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It's a good subject, so I'll be back here later (exhausted). But, for a quick reply, yes, morals can exist outside of religion.

Anyhow, this pro-life athiest needs some sleep now. Another Chem exam tommorow (this one's for the lab).

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 2:19:42 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

I think that humans knew before them in some sense or another what was right or wrong. How do you know that God did not put in their hearts what was supposed to be morally correct? If we are to say that people were born with morals of some sort already, they had to have come from someplace. I call that place/person God, you call it what floats your boat.

I know that Christians on this board usually get "attacked" (for lack of a better word), don't anyone even try to act like they don't, I have seen it time and time again.

I answered the question like everyone else did, though in my answer I mentioned something from the Bible (goodness forbid). My faith does not have to be anyone elses, but I will never not mention it just because I am worried what others might think. I have studied, converted, and looked into many others..but I come back to the one I have now. It is what gives me hope, comfort, and the strength to get thru every single day. It's those things, plus the love I feel in return and the grace I am shown, that keeps me in this world. I am a child of a very loving God, saved by the blood of my Savior, filled with His Holy Spirit.

In the end, that's all I need to know.

The assumption that there is an intrinsic right or wrong and that a god decided it, is one of faith and one might as well argue to a wall as to someone who has blind faith. Faith is a belief system without evidence and if you accept that fair enough.

It is strange how religious people (of all faiths) find it so hard to live up to their morals, to say they are supposed to be given by god.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 2:36:10 AM

Bishonenjim

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My morals are based on the belief that maximum happiness of a total system of humans is happiest when with the least amount of disruption (I'll define it as purely onesided/selfish interaction) they cause eachother. I don't put much thought into it though and that's the first thing that came to mind.

I also like the philosopher who said something along the lines of all evil starts out as the assumption that another human isn't human (is an object) in the minds of the source of evil. Keep in mind I'm butchering it (it's late)...

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 3:00:47 AM

sleazybutterfly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

I think that humans knew before them in some sense or another what was right or wrong. How do you know that God did not put in their hearts what was supposed to be morally correct? If we are to say that people were born with morals of some sort already, they had to have come from someplace. I call that place/person God, you call it what floats your boat.

I know that Christians on this board usually get "attacked" (for lack of a better word), don't anyone even try to act like they don't, I have seen it time and time again.

I answered the question like everyone else did, though in my answer I mentioned something from the Bible (goodness forbid). My faith does not have to be anyone elses, but I will never not mention it just because I am worried what others might think. I have studied, converted, and looked into many others..but I come back to the one I have now. It is what gives me hope, comfort, and the strength to get thru every single day. It's those things, plus the love I feel in return and the grace I am shown, that keeps me in this world. I am a child of a very loving God, saved by the blood of my Savior, filled with His Holy Spirit.

In the end, that's all I need to know.

The assumption that there is an intrinsic right or wrong and that a god decided it, is one of faith and one might as well argue to a wall as to someone who has blind faith. Faith is a belief system without evidence and if you accept that fair enough.

It is strange how religious people (of all faiths) find it so hard to live up to their morals, to say they are supposed to be given by god.

I don't have blind faith, I have faith. It's strange how those that don't believe anything call those of us that do "blind". I have seen God work in my life over and over, were it not for Him and the faith I have, I would not be here, that is the faith I have seen, the God I have known.

As for talking to a wall....nevermind.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 3:12:48 AM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

My faith does not have to be anyone elses, but I will never not mention it just because I am worried what others might think.

Good

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 3:19:49 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

I don't have blind faith, I have faith. It's strange how those that don't believe anything call those of us that do "blind". I have seen God work in my life over and over, were it not for Him and the faith I have, I would not be here, that is the faith I have seen, the God I have known.

As for talking to a wall....nevermind.

But faith is blind. If you had evidence to support your beliefs, it wouldn't be a faith, it would be knowledge.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 3:29:49 AM

sleazybutterfly

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There are always going to be parts of faith that are blind, but I can back that part up enough with actual evidence in my life that I don't consider my faith blind anymore. Seeing as I can't go and talk to Paul from the Bible, or I wasn't around to see anything that happened, some of it will have to just "be". I can also see an athiest as blind though, they are blind to what is around them and closed off from any possibility other than things they can see, or want to see. To me God is present everyday in the sky above me, the animals that surround me, the flowers with the beautiful color and scents and too many other things to name.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 3:59:35 AM

cuddleheart50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

There are always going to be parts of faith that are blind, but I can back that part up enough with actual evidence in my life that I don't consider my faith blind anymore. Seeing as I can't go and talk to Paul from the Bible, or I wasn't around to see anything that happened, some of it will have to just "be". I can also see an athiest as blind though, they are blind to what is around them and closed off from any possibility other than things they can see, or want to see. To me God is present everyday in the sky above me, the animals that surround me, the flowers with the beautiful color and scents and too many other things to name.

What she said.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 4:18:20 AM

lucyboy

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My morals do not come from religion. Check this video http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,1411,Believing-the-Unbelievable-The-Clash-Between-Faith-and-Reason-in-the-Modern-World,Sam-Harris

This guy is amazing

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 6:13:21 AM

camille65

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I've added a question

.

I'm really enjoying the responses here and I am glad that it hasn't gotten snarky which is always a possibility when religion is part of the conversation.
All of the responses have given me things to think about (one of my favorite pastimes lol) and it also brings up more questions for me.

Can society develop a moral code without using religion?

That one popped up in the middle of the night while battling a nasty never (seemingly) bout of insomnia. Thanks to all of you for giving me something to occupy my mind all night

.

Thanks too, to those that while feeling uncomfortable exposing their belief system having the courage to do so anyway. Seriously.

This isn't about who is right or wrong but more on how/why we consider things/actions right or wrong!

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 6:15:39 AM

michaelOfGeorgia

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i can live without religion...in fact, i have

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 6:47:31 AM

yrstocollar

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Your morals and other core beliefs are formed when you are young and come from two things.

1. The main influences on you at that time. So for most people the most immediate and strongest influence will be their family or whoever they live with when they're young. Of course there are other influences ie your peers, the media, your local and larger communities, your teachers at school and so on. Religion is one of these but given religion's role in shaping society, how we live, our laws, what is considered acceptable behaviour etc. whether or not you grow up in a religious family doesn't really matter... you will still probably have morals and core beliefs which are actually based on religious morals.

2. Your early life experiences... ie what you went through as a child, the good and the bad. These experiences can help support what you've learned as a child about morals... or they can help disprove them.

We're talking Cognitive Behavioural Theory here if anyone is interested... oh and Social Learning Theory... but don't ask me for authors or anything I'm too tired...zzzz...

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 6:51:13 AM

yrstocollar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
Can society develop a moral code without using religion?

No... coz of what I said above... historically we've developed our morals as a society from a point where religion was such a big influence and you can't just unlearn and forget this history and start from scrap.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 6:56:13 AM

camille65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yrstocollar

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
Can society develop a moral code without using religion?

No... coz of what I said above... historically we've developed our morals as a society from a point where religion was such a big influence and you can't just unlearn and forget this history and start from scrap.

Both of your posts are my line of thoughts on these questions. I don't think that it can be seperate because of how it did originate. Although I firmly believe that an individual can develop strong and socially accepted morals I don't think that can hold true for large groups.

Jeez again I thank everyone for their thoughts, this has been really interesting! Yay for brain food

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 7:00:15 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yrstocollar

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
Can society develop a moral code without using religion?

No... coz of what I said above... historically we've developed our morals as a society from a point where religion was such a big influence and you can't just unlearn and forget this history and start from scrap.

Not true, many people shun superstition and develop their values through reason. Just because so many people prefer to develop their values from superstitious nonsense doesn't mean they have too. They choose the route of ignorance. That is their perogative.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 7:14:04 AM

yrstocollar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: yrstocollar

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
Can society develop a moral code without using religion?

No... coz of what I said above... historically we've developed our morals as a society from a point where religion was such a big influence and you can't just unlearn and forget this history and start from scrap.

Not true, many people shun superstition and develop their values through reason.

Yeah but "developing your values through reason" is just another way of saying you learn what you believe in because of what you experience. You develop your reason and logic because you experience patterns and so you can apply logic and say "well every time I do this, this will happen, so logically it's probably going to happen the same way next time"

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Just because so many people prefer to develop their values from superstitious nonsense doesn't mean they have too. They choose the route of ignorance. That is their perogative.

I'm sorry I don't quite get what you mean by this... but you don't really choose to develop your values... it's kind of already happened by the time you're old enough to rationalise and make those kind of choices that clearly.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 7:20:33 AM

yrstocollar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
Although I firmly believe that an individual can develop strong and socially accepted morals I don't think that can hold true for large groups.

Oh I don't know... it's surprisingly easy for us to start thinking like each other... it's a little tougher for really core belief things like morals but you see it all the time with fashion and it does translate to other beliefs... here's an example anyway... think about guys wearing pink shirts... a few years ago, most guys wouldn't be caught dead wearing one... then some famous people started wearing them and suddenly all the guys were wearing them! Even the toughest of tough little teenage street boys that I used to work with...

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 7:31:14 AM

szobras

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Can society develop a moral code without using religion?
Yes Camille, Some societies have before what is known as "religion". The path in which I follow is of a culture that actually does not even have a word for "religion". The word was applied to it by others. Many paths are recognized simply as a way of life.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 7:34:14 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yrstocollar

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Just because so many people prefer to develop their values from superstitious nonsense doesn't mean they have too. They choose the route of ignorance. That is their perogative.

I'm sorry I don't quite get what you mean by this... but you don't really choose to develop your values... it's kind of already happened by the time you're old enough to rationalise and make those kind of choices that clearly.

True to a point, we inherit our values through our experience, parents, family and wider culture. However, it is a personal choice if one wants to remain hold of them simply because they were what we were taught. The alternative is to purge ones mind through reason and try to develop values based on reason which is not the same as experience. Though sometimes it is prudent to compromise ones values and take note of ones experience.

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RE: Where do 'your' morals come from? - 8/9/2007 7:47:05 AM

SoftKajira

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Society as a whole, culture, where we live and grow up etc. greatly affect how morals happen, I believe a lot more then religion. Most religions include the basic morals (killing is bad, stealing is bad etc). I don't believe that means that all morals should be attributed to religion, simply because as long as there has been man, man has created "religion" people, places and things to worship, they are left behind for the next new religion, they "evolve". They take on attributes of past religions and grow larger and more appealing to more people, which to me means morals come from people i.e. society :-) I do believe that SOME morals are strictly attributed to religion, but religion itself is not necessary for the basic morals to be in place. If religion was never created I believe the same morals, without the specifically religious ones would still be believed. well.. I hope that is clear enough.

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