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samboct -> RE: WWII and Who Won It (8/9/2007 6:44:06 AM)
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Ooh- a WWII discussion. Being an airplane and history nut, I wanna chime in here.
1) The P-39 actually did quite well when used at low levels, being reasonably maneuvrable and easy to fly. The main problem with the airplane was the lack of a turbosupercharger which was supposed to be produced by GE. In 1939, I think there were less than 100 of these units available, although the contracts had been written for them to be produced in the thousands. GE also pulled political strings and made sure that no one else could produce them either. Hence, the poor Allison engine was rather maligned- and lead to the P-39 developing a reputation as a dog since the engine ran out of steam at 12,000 feet, and the P-38 entering the combat zone much later than it should have. Early P-38s without the GE turbosupercharger were declined by the Brits. Coupled with the fact that too much of the testing was done over So. Cal where the temperature even at altitude never got close to Europe in the winter (-40-50C) at altitude- pilots froze- engines blew up (bad fuel, needed US high octane) and you couldn't see out of the damn airplane because the canopy was frosted.
2) Somebody's already pointed out that it was a team effort- this is true. Yes, Russians did most of the dying, but when the successful commanders idea of how to clear a minefield was just to march your company over it, what do you expect?
3) The US did supply much of the weaponry used in the war- but more importantly the logistical equipment, and Russia would have folded without lend lease and the convoys. Hitler got a lot closer to Moscow and the oil fields of the Caucasus- if he had taken those oil fields, Russia and everybody else would have been in real trouble. The debacle at Stalingrad in 1943 was due to the failure of the Luftwaffe to supply the encircled troops (they weren't even close, Goering told Hitler what he wanted to hear, rather than reality.) but which also lead to the Berlin airlift a half dozen years later. The Russians never appreciated the US logistical support- hence they thought that when they cut off travel to Berlin, the city would starve. They thought the US would have the same problem as the German airlift at Stalingrad- since there were only a quarter of a million men at Stalingrad, and there were like 2 million people in Berlin? Instead, the US airlift was effective for close to a year, and the Russians had to call it quits.
4) The US strategic bombing was successful at knocking out Germany's oil production- which proved to be decisive- effectively their war machine on the ground, air and sea ground to a standstill. Note- the English have a tendency to pick on themselves for bombing cities at night which in a few attacks caused great devastation. While it was not the war winning strategy that was hoped for in the pre war years, it certainly did significant damage to the war machine. Besides, the criticism ignores the fact that accurate assesments of what's actually working during a war can be hard to come by.
5) The invasion at Normandy would probably not have been possible without the Russians drawing off the bulk of the German army.
6) The German wonder weapons were certainly often effective and terrifying. There was no defense against the V-2, although in terms of man hours and material, they could have built 10 medium bombers instead. Didn't matter- the medium bombers weren't getting through and they couldn't train their aircrew.
7) If the Me 262 had been available 6 months earlier- most of Europe would be speaking German. It would have been unstoppable for a long time. Without the US having air superiority over the beachhead, the invasion at Normandy wasn't happening.
8) Churchill commented that he wasn't really worried about the Battle of Britain, but he was very concerned about the battle of the Atlantic. When the U-boats were sinking ships faster than they could be built- that's a problem. The sacrifices of the Merchant Marine are often overlooked in most popular accounts of the war.
9) Churchill should have been worried more about the Battle of Britain. If the Germans had added drop tanks to the Me-109s and improved their tactics- and stayed hammering at airfields- their invasion fleet of toy barges might have been safe enough to do the crossing- and Britain's home defense was pretty silly.
10) The code breakers at Bletchley Park were largely Polish and Czech mathematicians. The effect of this on the war was actually a bit less important than has often been portrayed. Also- the German intelligence was more effective- they always knew when the convoys were sailing so Doenitz knew where to put his wolfpacks. This wasn't due to a spy network in the US or the UK, but rather an agent at a Swiss insurance company- since all convoys had to be insured, the risk was shared with Swiss companies.
11) The inadequacy of the Sherman was due to Gen. George Patton. There were larger, heavier tanks available (a few made it to the field and did OK) that could have taken on the Tiger on more of an even footing, but Patton was obsessed with speed, and nothing was as fast as a Sherman. So Patton killed the development of the larger tanks. Luckily the RAF Typhoons and US Thunderbolts proved to be quite handy tank killers- the Typhoon was probably the best tank killer of the war, although the Russians could make a good case for the Shturmovik.
The argument about which nation, the UK, the US or the USSR was most important in beating the Nazis is irrelevant- it really was a team effort.
Also- comments that the German troops deserved to die as captives in Russia- well, that's pretty silly. Let's face it, most of the troops were kids 18-20 and were largely the same as anybody else wearing a uniform. (Leadership is different.) There was a wonderful comment by Oscar B.- a Luftwaffe pilot when asked which airforce had the best pilots- his response: We were all good pilots-we just landed at different airfields.
I just got back from a trip to Europe- saw Berlin and Vienna. One of the more powerful exhibits is an open air photo exhibit in Berlin called the Topologie of Terror. Prinz Albrechtstrasse where the Gestapo holding cells were located was bombed during the war, then the leveled in the 1950s, so there's really not much on the site. But what the exhibit makes chillingly plain is how ruthlessly the Nazis dealt with dissent- and that with no free press, and the court's under the party's control, justice was a joke. If the party decided that they wanted you disappeared- they did it- with no repercussions. And this started back in 1935 IIRC. They disappeared between 10-15,000 people- just in these cells alone. Bear in mind that the Nazis never got more than 34% of the vote in the last open elections- and that when they broadcast a trial of a Communist party member in 1935 with Goring- one of the smartest and most well liked by the public, representing the prosecution, the Communist did such a good job of defending himself (It's my job to be the opposition to the Nazi party for the good of Germany.) that the Nazis had to let him go. But this was the last time there was a radio or TV broadcast of a trial.
We've got a lot to learn here in the US from the events that took place in Germany prior to the war. I get really nervous whenever I see organizations with the word Security in their name.
Sam
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