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Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 9:32:49 AM

angelikaJ

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I mentioned this on another thread.
Today is the 62nd 'anniversary' of the Atomic bombing of Nagasaki, Japan.
Monday, August 6th marked the first use of an A-bomb as a weapon on Hiroshima.
Here are some related links for those who want/need the information.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/abomb/mp01.htm

http://history1900s.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/hiroshima.htm

http://www.dannen.com/decision/

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/g_l/levine/bombing.htm

http://www.gensuikin.org/english/photo.html

http://www.art-for-a-change.com/Atomic/atomic.htm

http://www.fureai-ch.ne.jp/~haiku/enpic.htm

http://www.tempslibres.org/awhw/poets/ys.html

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 9:38:08 AM

SimplyMichael

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Wars of aggression often came with painful results, Japan paid lightly for hers and we are about to pay dearly for ours.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 9:41:49 AM

kittinSol

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Once again thank you for reminding us all of this tragedy. Let's never forget.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 10:06:36 AM

nighthawk3569

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And while we're remembering, let's don't forget the over 1100 Americans who were entombed alive when the Japs sunk the battleship Arizona at Pearl Harbor...not to mention the 100's of other casualties at Pearl. And while we're at it, let's don't forget the Bataan Death March, where 100's of other Americans were slaughtered. Let's don't forget that, whatever happened, the Japanese warlords brought it upon themselves and their people.

'hawk

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 10:09:48 AM

Estring

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Once again thank you for reminding us all of this tragedy. Let's never forget.

Tragedy? It effectively ended the war and saved thousands of our soldiers from dying in an invasion of Japan.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 11:22:25 AM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Once again thank you for reminding us all of this tragedy. Let's never forget.

Tragedy? It effectively ended the war and saved thousands of our soldiers from dying in an invasion of Japan.

It is possible that the war would not have ended, but the Japanese government already had their conditions for an end to the war outlined and after the first bomb it is unlikely that with a little more time...time for the shock of the first bomb to settle enough for reality to set in ... the government of Japan would have surrendered within days.

the bombs killed an estimated. 240,000 people...the majority of which were civillians.

here is another link:
http://www.atomicarchive.com/Docs/Hiroshima/index.shtml

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 11:33:57 AM

Emperor1956

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No one wins in a war. Can't you jingoistic fools (Nighthawk and Estring, not to put too fine a point on it) who post things about "evil" Japan and "good" USA figure that out? In terms of raw civilian body count (or ANY body count, for that matter), the two nuclear bombings of Japan far outweigh the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Does that make one right and one wrong? Of course not.

The debate over the need to use the two bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (or even if Hiroshima alone would have been enough) is extensive, and both sides make points. The fact is that the use of the atomic bomb did appear to shorten the war, although Japan had made settlement overtures. Current historical thinking questions many of the Allies' strategy on bombing: The carpet bombing of Tokyo, the dropping of the a-bomb, and most noteably the campaign of fireboming in Europe all have been reviewed as poor decisions morally and strategically.

Michael, your comment that Japan suffered lightly astounds me. The cost to Japan in lost lives, lost economic advantage and social destruction because of an ill considered war was huge. Do you realize that an entire generation of Japanese starved (1000s to death) in the years after the surrender? Japan didn't "pull out" of its economic despair until the early 1960s. I agree with you that this country will suffer the consequences of its current ill thought out, immoral war for a long time, but don't please dismiss the suffering of Japan at the same time. That would be wrong historically, and immoral.

E

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 11:35:02 AM

Zensee

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War is a terrible thing and soldiers die at the hands of other soldiers. Taking revenge on civilians is not justifiable. All sides did so but that does not make it acceptable.

The atomic bombings were acts of calculated terror against clearly civilian targets. They were also acts of cold blooded scientific research and completely unnecessary.

Z.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 11:48:32 AM

Zanarkand

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Whether you want to believe it or not the bombs were a mercy for Japan. They saved Japan. If the US had invaded it would have killed MILLIONS! many of them civilians who would have fought with forks and knives rather than give up. President Truman was forced to choose the lesser of two evils. 240,000 Japanese dead(reminder that at that time the Japanese were hated...they were brutal cold killers) or millions of dead japanese and hundreds of thousands of dead US troops.

The US government was desperate to avoid invading Japan. And there is no way Washington knew about the Japanese plans to surrender after the first bomb....it was a different world back then. Intelligence was virtually always delayed in getting up the chain of command due to technology.

The A bombs SAVED lives.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 11:53:13 AM

nighthawk3569

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Put as fine a point on it as you like. The fact remains that if Japan hadn't attacked Pearl, the rest probably wouldn't have followed. In other words, if you slap someone, expect to get your ass kicked.

'hawk

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 1:11:16 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zanarkand

The A bombs SAVED lives.

Well, didn't they wash your brain well, aye?

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 1:20:25 PM

domiguy

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Wow!....keep your party hats handy...In six months we can celebrate the fire bombing of Dresden.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 1:28:45 PM

SimplyMichael

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Emperor,

Lets just imagine for a second if Korea or China had had the firebombs and the nukes...or the fate of Koreans and Chinese if America hadn't gotten involved. Japan doesn't even bother teaching about unit 81 and only now sort of admits that they used Koreans as sex slaves. Japan got off light.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 1:29:33 PM

kittinSol

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Well yep. What can we do, except remain aware and awake, and not complacent when OUR governments fuck around with other people's lives? There's more to war than retaliation, and while Dresden was certainly tragic too, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the first and only times a country nuked another.

Maybe some good came out of it, since the results were so horrific, nobody ever dared 'press the button' again. So far, so good. Still, I see no harm in remembering the ones who died on that horrible, horrible day. And I hate myself for having forgotten August 6th.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 2:07:07 PM

DesertRat

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I was at my doctor's on the 6th and we talked about what the day meant. I see people as people and am sorry for what those poor souls suffered. Hell, I'm sorry for 'em all. I am working on a missile range and am not too far from the Trinity site, which I have visited, so it's hard for me to forget such things.

Domiguy, your remark was beautiful. It made me laugh...that good, sickened, sardonic laugh of satisfaction, seeing that someone really gets it.

Bob

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 2:07:07 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nighthawk3569

And while we're remembering, let's don't forget the over 1100 Americans who were entombed alive when the Japs sunk the battleship Arizona at Pearl Harbor...not to mention the 100's of other casualties at Pearl. And while we're at it, let's don't forget the Bataan Death March, where 100's of other Americans were slaughtered. Let's don't forget that, whatever happened, the Japanese warlords brought it upon themselves and their people.

'hawk

Agreed.
And you forgot "The Rape of Nanking." (sp?)

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 2:17:02 PM

DesertRat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And you forgot "The Rape of Nanking." (sp?)

You spelled rape correctly.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 2:21:47 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

Domiguy, your remark was beautiful. It made me laugh...that good, sickened, sardonic laugh of satisfaction, seeing that someone really gets it.

Bob

Nod nod nod, and now that I've had a glass of wine (I'm cooking an elaborate supper, it's a pre-requisite) I am happy at the humanity that comes through the boards.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 2:25:10 PM

babygirl005

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

No one wins in a war. Can't you jingoistic fools (Nighthawk and Estring, not to put too fine a point on it) who post things about "evil" Japan and "good" USA figure that out? In terms of raw civilian body count (or ANY body count, for that matter), the two nuclear bombings of Japan far outweigh the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Does that make one right and one wrong? Of course not.

The debate over the need to use the two bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (or even if Hiroshima alone would have been enough) is extensive, and both sides make points. The fact is that the use of the atomic bomb did appear to shorten the war, although Japan had made settlement overtures. Current historical thinking questions many of the Allies' strategy on bombing: The carpet bombing of Tokyo, the dropping of the a-bomb, and most noteably the campaign of fireboming in Europe all have been reviewed as poor decisions morally and strategically.

Michael, your comment that Japan suffered lightly astounds me. The cost to Japan in lost lives, lost economic advantage and social destruction because of an ill considered war was huge. Do you realize that an entire generation of Japanese starved (1000s to death) in the years after the surrender? Japan didn't "pull out" of its economic despair until the early 1960s. I agree with you that this country will suffer the consequences of its current ill thought out, immoral war for a long time, but don't please dismiss the suffering of Japan at the same time. That would be wrong historically, and immoral.

E

You know it is so easy to be an armchair historian huh? So easy to say what should have been done when you have no stake in anything.
I guess you could ask the "Comfort Women" who were taken against their will and used as prostitutes for the Japanese army whether Japan or the US were the evil ones. I wonder what they would tell you? To put a moral equivalence on Japan's actions and ours is pretty ridiculous.
And compare our actions in rebuilding Japan after it's defeat with Japan's refusal even now to even admit they horribly mistreated those poor Korean women that were forced to service the Japanese military. Yep, pretty even there too.
I will never feel guilty for dropping the bomb on Japan and ending a war which we did not start. As has been pointed out by myself and others, it saved many more lives than it took.
You can go ahead and wallow in your misplaced moral superiority, I will live in the real world.
Oh, by the way, Japan surrendered to us. We won the war. Get over it.

Edited by Estring

< Message edited by babygirl005 -- 8/9/2007 2:26:58 PM >

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 2:26:44 PM

mrbob726

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quote:

Well, didn't they wash your brain well, aye?

You may think you know a lot about it, but I was alive during that war (was 7 when it started). zenarkand at 18 appears to have actually studied history, where you must have missed that class. The simple fact is true, that the A bombs saved hundreds of thousands of lives, Japanese and american. You can't imagine what it was like during those years. It's true, that today, things might have been done differently, but it was the right thing to do for the times and knowledge available at the time.

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