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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 2:32:01 PM   
DesertRat


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From: NM/USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: babygirl005
You can go ahead and wallow in your misplaced moral superiority, I will live in the real world.
Oh, by the way, Japan surrendered to us. We won the war. Get over it. 


I'm convinced. Fuck the compassion!! Let's nuke 'em again!!!

Bob

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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro--Hunter S. Thompson
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide!--Chief Dead St. Knockout, 1933, Liverpool
Damn the crops. I'll only find peace at the end of a rope.--Winston Van Loo, 1911

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 2:38:13 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I wonder how she'd feel if the 'real world' meant that she, as the citizen of an enemy country to another, would get an Atom bomb on top of her head. Let's see what the real world would mean to her then? Probably not the same at all.



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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 2:42:08 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I wonder how she'd feel if the 'real world' meant that she, as the citizen of an enemy country to another, would get an Atom bomb on top of her head. Let's see what the real world would mean to her then? Probably not the same at all.




Are you in college by any chance? That would explain your brilliant observations. (Being sarcastic, in case you missed it).

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 2:42:13 PM   
Kirei


Posts: 146
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		  Remembering things is not bad it is how you remember them that determines your outlook.  While my grandfather survived the german death march at the end of war, he never held as much spite as my grandmother did for germans.  He knew it was war. 
  Its history, and we should learn from history.  When someone asks how can terrorists make or get an atomic bomb...well remind them that this year marks 65 yrs of that tech being is egistance and did they know that?  The thing to remember is that one day "end of the world" tech might become common to everyone.

Kirei

(in reply to angelikaJ)
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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 2:50:37 PM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
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From: NM/USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring
Are you in college by any chance? That would explain your brilliant observations. (Being sarcastic, in case you missed it).


Are you being held in an Imperial Japanese POW camp? That would explain yours.

Bob

_____________________________

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro--Hunter S. Thompson
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide!--Chief Dead St. Knockout, 1933, Liverpool
Damn the crops. I'll only find peace at the end of a rope.--Winston Van Loo, 1911

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 2:55:34 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		The atomic bombs did shorten the war, thereby saving lives, in as much as more troops and civilians would have been killed in the following months, than in the bombings.
The nuclear bombs had more of an impact as they just flattened everything, however it was the bombing of Tokyo which caused the greatest single loss of life.

Either way not a good thing, but war is war and the Japanese were not blameless in this, starting with their invasion of China and the subsequent loss of 20 million Chinese.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 3:05:27 PM   
EvilCrimeLord


Posts: 184
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From: FakeVolcano
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Once again thank you for reminding us all of this tragedy. Let's never forget.


Tragedy? It effectively ended the war and saved thousands of our soldiers from dying in an invasion of Japan.


I think a demonstration to the Japanese of the nuclear testing could have ended the war without such loss of life but for some strange reason this was never considered. It makes me shudder that they would have dropped one in central Europe if victory hadn’t arrived there before the bomb was complete. Were these military targets because so many civilians died in these indiscriminate attacks. How on earth can you say there is any justification for that? If you justify such things you also have to think terrorists are justified in their targeting of densely populated civilian areas, they too claim to be fighting a war. All I ask is that you put yourself in the place not of the ruling politicians at the time, or the soldiers fighting but the people going about their everyday lives; men women and children.

< Message edited by EvilCrimeLord -- 8/9/2007 3:09:05 PM >

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 3:06:43 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I wonder how she'd feel if the 'real world' meant that she, as the citizen of an enemy country to another, would get an Atom bomb on top of her head. Let's see what the real world would mean to her then? Probably not the same at all.




Are you in college by any chance? That would explain your brilliant observations. (Being sarcastic, in case you missed it).


Nothing to do with education, darling. I was merely imagining somebody in the boots of another. It's called fiction. Good luck with your studies.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 3:28:58 PM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline 		The war has been over for a long time. The issue of whether dropping the bomb was right is not what I thought this thread was about. I thought it was about remembering the lives lost and the lasting suffering of the survivors. Marking the days in remembrance. "Fuck 'em, they deserved it; shit happens" is a lame response. People died horribly. It was a tragedy.

If a young American soldier enlists in the army because he's all gung-ho and wants to kick some ass, and subsequently gets blown up in Iraq, should we tell his mom: "Fuck him; he was asking for it"? I guess some would, but I'd say it's a tragedy.

Bob

_____________________________

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro--Hunter S. Thompson
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide!--Chief Dead St. Knockout, 1933, Liverpool
Damn the crops. I'll only find peace at the end of a rope.--Winston Van Loo, 1911

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 3:37:05 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		i found this very interesting reading
http://www.atomicarchive.com/History/trinity/radiation.shtml

oh just so everyone knows japan has a lot of our companies and other things as far as investment not to mention land we may have won the war but they came back and bought us out lol we got conquered by greed

< Message edited by LATEXBABY64 -- 8/9/2007 3:38:57 PM >

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 3:38:14 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
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Status: offline 		Its a moot point who or what  started the War in the Pacific in that the US embargo on Japan was involved but its absolutely certain what stopped it.

(in reply to mrbob726)
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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 3:55:04 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

The war has been over for a long time. The issue of whether dropping the bomb was right is not what I thought this thread was about. I thought it was about remembering the lives lost and the lasting suffering of the survivors. Marking the days in remembrance. "Fuck 'em, they deserved it; shit happens" is a lame response. People died horribly. It was a tragedy.

If a young American soldier enlists in the army because he's all gung-ho and wants to kick some ass, and subsequently gets blown up in Iraq, should we tell his mom: "Fuck him; he was asking for it"? I guess some would, but I'd say it's a tragedy.

Bob


Bob,
Thank you for reclarifying the theme of the thread.
aJ

(in reply to DesertRat)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 4:07:39 PM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		Anyone interested should read about he great Bob Mcnamara's viewpoints on that historic and necessary evil deed.

A good read: Apocalypse Soon, "Robert McNamara is worried. He knows how close we’ve come. His counsel helped the Kennedy administration avert nuclear catastrophe during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Today, he believes the United States must no longer rely on nuclear weapons as a foreign-policy tool. To do so is immoral, illegal, and dreadfully dangerous."


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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 5:09:30 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		To babygirl (or was that Estring):  Hard to know how to respond to such hysteria.  In fact, Japan has repeatedly apologized for the "comfort women" and other atrocities committed in WWII.  But you are clearly never one to worry about facts getting in the way of your ranting.

You accuse me of "having no stake in anything" -- First,  where did you learn that old trick of when you are outgunned intellectually, attack the person?   It is called ad hominem, and it is the refuge of the stupid and the cowardly.  Second, what stake exactly do YOU claim to have?  Other than your oh-so-cute defense of your Master (who I would have thought could speak for himself), where exactly do you get off impuning my motives?

And "we won the war, get over it?"  What the hell does that mean?  Its nice to know you never feel guilty about dropping the atomic bomb.  Do you feel guilty about anything, or is your false sense of superiority carry you over all of us poor humans in every regard?

E.

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"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 5:11:37 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
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quote:

Desert Rat:  The war has been over for a long time. The issue of whether dropping the bomb was right is not what I thought this thread was about. I thought it was about remembering the lives lost and the lasting suffering of the survivors. Marking the days in remembrance. "Fuck 'em, they deserved it; shit happens" is a lame response. People died horribly. It was a tragedy.

If a young American soldier enlists in the army because he's all gung-ho and wants to kick some ass, and subsequently gets blown up in Iraq, should we tell his mom: "Fuck him; he was asking for it"? I guess some would, but I'd say it's a tragedy.

Bob


Well said, Bob.

E

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to DesertRat)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 5:54:05 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		when i was in the military we were trained to think russia was a very bad enemy now they are more then spit in the wind. but you join for the greater good of the country cuase you beleave in it.. maybe some want it for a job or education but after your their you know what your to do and how to do it with out question.. If i was asked to fight tommrow i would go.. pride in what your country is to you is what matters to everyone

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 7:23:13 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Wow!....keep your party hats handy...In six months we can celebrate the fire bombing of Dresden.


The bombing of Dreden was no different then the German bombing of London and didn't inlcude 6000 V1 and V2 bombs.

The bombs on Japan saved 1 to 2 million lives and if we don't drop them...I may not be here.

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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 7:32:21 PM   
Zanarkand


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Joined: 7/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EvilCrimeLord


I think a demonstration to the Japanese of the nuclear testing could have ended the war without such loss of life but for some strange reason this was never considered.


It wasnt considered because we only had two bombs. The president could not risk wasting a bomb on a demonstration. He knew he had to break the spirit of the Emperor. And that meant dropping them on cities.

(in reply to EvilCrimeLord)
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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 7:40:34 PM   
Alhazred


Posts: 134
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

I mentioned this on another thread.
Today is the 62nd 'anniversary' of the Atomic bombing of Nagasaki, Japan.
Monday, August 6th marked the first use of an A-bomb as a weapon on Hiroshima.
Here are some related links for those who want/need the information.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/abomb/mp01.htm

http://history1900s.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/hiroshima.htm

http://www.dannen.com/decision/

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/g_l/levine/bombing.htm

http://www.gensuikin.org/english/photo.html

http://www.art-for-a-change.com/Atomic/atomic.htm

http://www.fureai-ch.ne.jp/~haiku/enpic.htm

http://www.tempslibres.org/awhw/poets/ys.html




Consecration To An Ideal.


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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/9/2007 8:48:56 PM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zanarkand

quote:

ORIGINAL: EvilCrimeLord


I think a demonstration to the Japanese of the nuclear testing could have ended the war without such loss of life but for some strange reason this was never considered.


It wasnt considered because we only had two bombs. The president could not risk wasting a bomb on a demonstration. He knew he had to break the spirit of the Emperor. And that meant dropping them on cities.


....and suppose the bomb had fizzled?

Btw, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate military targets.  That clearly wasn't the only consideration, but it isn't accurate to say they were purely civilian locations.  They weren't.

From (of course) WikiP:

quote:

At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of some industrial and military significance. A number of military camps were located nearby, including the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops.


(That bit about Hata's command is important because it wasn't clear if Japan would surrender, and at the time, the allies were actively planning for an invasion of the southern islands -- with casualites predicted in the millions)

quote:

The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.


(in reply to Zanarkand)
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