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RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/10/2007 6:38:25 PM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I am not nor ever will be subsmissive, I am Dominant by nature. However I have on ocassion bottomed and found it to be fulfilling. Here again I maintaining control, being the Dominant partner and getting the attention that the submissive usually does. It will work for some people for others it will not. Some people just do not have any desire to experience the sensations that a bottom does. Will it make a person a better Dominant? I do not think so. Because a bottom and a subsmissive are two totally different things, as are a Dominant and a submissive mindset.

~Lashra


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“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/10/2007 6:51:33 PM   
theq


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse
Some do some don't.... as for making them better.... total nonsense and typical switch claptrap.
...
I will NEVER experience what a sub does because they submit and I can not. Diffrent mindset = diffrerent experience even down to different physiological responce. So no benifit in understanding the sub experience AT ALL


So you are categorically labeling an experience (not just for yourself, but for everyone) as not beneficial even though you have not experienced it yourself? How interesting. Surely, you must have done research and have some hard data then? I'd be interested in reading the details of your data and study methods.

There are other things which could cause you to draw your conclusion, I suppose. In the interest of not flaming and being a total jackass myself, I will not list them (all) *coughing* Arrogance *Coughing*.

< Message edited by theq -- 8/10/2007 6:52:56 PM >

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/10/2007 8:34:40 PM   
Vampyrefledgling


Posts: 91
Joined: 7/10/2007
Status: offline 		My, my, I seem to have elicited quite a few responses...do continue your debates/arguments, however it is you wish to classify them. Do allow me however, to clarify a few things:

I apologize if this is a repeat of a previous thread. I have not been here long, nor do I have the inclination (or time) to sift through months (years?) of threads. I appreciate the time and energy it takes you Masters to read and reply to the questions we submissives pose and I am grateful for your comments here.

If the question came across as saying that I believe it necessary for a successful (fully self-actualized, whatever) Dom/me to have spent time on the bottom, let me assure you, this is not the case. I was simply curious as to how many Dom/mes actually have done so and the effect it had on them.

~Fledgling

(in reply to theq)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/10/2007 10:01:57 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe this doesn't apply to the OP's question but - I am a Switch, and I can honestly say that I can imagine how hot some of the things I want my submissive interest to do would feel if I did them for a male Dominant - and it gets me even hotter thinking about how great it might feel for him doing some things for me.

For instance, we both enjoy foot worship - and personally I enjoy both giving and getting that. So, if I ask him to worship my feet, I am confident it will feel good for him - because I know it feels great when I do it for a male Dominant (and I also know that my submissive male interest enjoys worshipping female feet.)

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/10/2007 10:02:26 PM >

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(in reply to theq)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/10/2007 10:41:24 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		History will tell you where the idea came from and it wasn't from BDSM to begin with.
The idea that working ones way up from the mailroom dates back through the Industrial Revolution.
It was a fairly dominantprevailing theory that working your way from the bottom up yeilded abetter leaders than those entrusted with power without first paying their dues.

It simply is part of the culture that crossed over from a shared history.

Hell you could make a case for it dating back to the old guild system pre industrial revolution.
Apprentice, Journeyman, Master pretty framiliar sounding to me.


< Message edited by Archer -- 8/10/2007 10:43:44 PM >

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/10/2007 10:57:10 PM   
NefertariReborn


Posts: 381
Status: offline 		I've admitted previously that I started off in this lifestyle as a submissive.  I wasn't very good at it but did get off on some aspects of the sub sex which I still hold near and dear to Me to this day.  Did it make Me more understanding of what subs go through? Yes and no.  I realized how difficult it was to submit ESPECIALLY on things you really dislike; that 99% of the time the sub wants nothing more than to please the dominant and get a "good job!" 
On the other hand I was, am , and always will be dominant, so the going was way hard.  Knocked heads with him constantly and realized I was neither a masochist (reallyyyyyyyyyy not a mosochist)  nor a card carrying sadist.  I still get arrogant and rigid on occasion but I think the sub experience brings Me back to reality faster when I do. 

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/10/2007 11:31:14 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Let the devalueing of other people's lifestyle choices, orientations and experiences begin!



I see we are off to a good start...

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(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/10/2007 11:44:21 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

I will NEVER experience what a sub does because they submit and I can not. Diffrent mindset = diffrerent experience even down to different physiological responce. So no benifit in understanding the sub experience AT ALL



I disagree somewhat and I think it depends.

While I wasnt really able to understand the submissive mentality during bottoming, I did come to some degree of better understanding of "what its about" threw imagination and open mindness...even if this understanding is shallow.

As far as different responses in regards to the toys themselves, I wont argue that everyone experiences things in a different way as far as pain. However, at the end of the day, I think a paddle still feals generally like a paddle for everyone and a Wartburg wheel feals like a Wartburg wheel for everyone.

I have yet to meet anyone give a description of how a paddle felt to them that sounded like how a flogger or a knife met to me or vice versa.

So yes...I consider the experience of bottoming to have some value as far as learning because when it was all said and done, I had a better understanding of what exactly I was doing to other people with the toys I had used on me. I felt less like I was using them blindly, trying to create some effect or result that I couldnt relate to.

However, this is just me and what I took from the oppurtunity that was presented to me a week ago. And personally, the experience provided quite a few "Ahh I get it now"'s so I do recommend it to any Top.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 8/10/2007 11:46:00 PM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/10/2007 11:45:23 PM   
Tinman1960


Posts: 46
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline 		Back when dirt was still fresh and I but a pup entering this lifestyle (long before personal computers), it was common practice for newbes to serve apprenticships under established Master in one's local community. It didn't kill me even tho the submissive role was against my nature; I think I learned a lot from that experience and it has given me a better understanding of the submissive.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 6:34:00 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

While I wasnt really able to understand the submissive mentality during bottoming, I did come to some degree of better understanding of "what its about" threw imagination and open mindness...even if this understanding is shallow.


Are you only imaginative and open minded when doing something that is out of character for you, and contrary to your nature?
 
John

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"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 7:01:15 AM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Some do some don't.... as for making them better.... total nonsense and typical switch claptrap.

It is based on the false notion that everyone is a little switch... Many are not.

I will NEVER experience what a sub does because they submit and I can not. Diffrent mindset = diffrerent experience even down to different physiological responce. So no benifit in understanding the sub experience AT ALL



I may wrong in my thinking on this but it's my thoughts that for many, they instinctively know and consider themselves either a dominant or a submissive without experincing how the other side "lives."  There probably are some dominants who do believe they want to experience what is is like to be submissive in order to understand their role more efficiently, for lack of a better word. Whether or not this will make one a "better" dominant, I have no idea. My belief is that only the person can determine that for themself.
All I can accurately state is from my own experience. My long held belief that I was totally submissive was proven incorrect just a few months ago. Through my own learning and the guidance of a Dom, I saw I had a few dominant tendancies which laid dormant and is now being nurtured. In my mindset, I will always be primarily submissive but not completely. Does this make me a better submissive, that is subjective. Does this make me a better person, yes in a way as I gained a little more understanding about myself which I had refused to consider in the past.

< Message edited by beargonewild -- 8/11/2007 7:03:33 AM >

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(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 7:17:50 AM   
instynctive


Posts: 2726
Status: offline 		Some of Us didn't have a choice early on.  Then again, it's called "rape", "assault" and in some states "molestation".

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(in reply to theq)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 7:24:27 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: instynctive

Some of Us didn't have a choice early on.  Then again, it's called "rape", "assault" and in some states "molestation".


I'm sorry, I'm completely missing the relevance of rape, assault and molestation to a discussion of bottoming and BDSM.  I'm such a ditz.  Maybe I was blonde before I went gray.  Would you care to enlighten me?
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to instynctive)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 7:41:22 AM   
abusablepaintoy


Posts: 29
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Some do some don't.... as for making them better.... total nonsense and typical switch claptrap.

It is based on the false notion that everyone is a little switch... Many are not.

I will NEVER experience what a sub does because they submit and I can not. Diffrent mindset = diffrerent experience even down to different physiological responce. So no benifit in understanding the sub experience AT ALL


quote:


Try stepping down off that ever so high horse. The notion that such switch tosh would make EVERYONE better is what was being responded to. Learn to read, it starts with "Some do some don't" and then continues from a personal perspective of one that doesn't!



quote:


I really don't care what you think it comes across as girlie... did that come over as patronising? ... good. See I can communicate quite clearly.

You have a problem with comprehention that is your problem. It is quite clear. I am not responcible for your sensibilitys. You want Politicaly Correct, try somewhere a little less adult.


First off, arrogance!=dominance.  Secondly, communication requires four things: A sender, a receiver, a message, and a medium to transmit that message.  It is a sender's responsibility to ensure that the message is received as intended.  I found the first part of your statement ambiguous, but the rather snide "switch claptrap" part resolved that ambiguity for me (and probably a lot of people.)  Oh, and proper spelling adds a lot of weight to a position in most people's minds.

Saying "some do, some don't" is a good start, but if you add a personal declarative statement (Such as "For me," "in my experience," etc as many other people in this thread have) makes it that much clearer.

I will give you one thing.  You are right- you will never know what a sub feels as you won't submit.  That's true- there is a whole class of experience there that since you won't submit you will not be able to experience.  Still, I think (and many other posters have stated as such) that bottoming can give a person very valid insights into how things work.  I started my journey as a top, though I always knew I was a submissive.  I quickly realized just how much energy it takes to really get into it, and that energy doesn't resonate with me at all, so after several failed attempts I went with what works best for me. My experience was valuable to me, in knowing what the top experience is like.  Still, I'm not a "switch," though I do respect people who can, that's just not how I'm wired.

Your Milage May Vary.

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 7:47:49 AM   
Grlwithboy


Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:



I disagree somewhat and I think it depends.

While I wasnt really able to understand the submissive mentality during bottoming, I did come to some degree of better understanding of "what its about" threw imagination and open mindness...even if this understanding is shallow.

As far as different responses in regards to the toys themselves, I wont argue that everyone experiences things in a different way as far as pain. However, at the end of the day, I think a paddle still feals generally like a paddle for everyone and a Wartburg wheel feals like a Wartburg wheel for everyone.


I'll up you one here.

All the studies we like to peek at periodically about endorphins and brain chemistry and pain and neuroreceptors - do we REALLY think that there are these huge gaping structural differences between human brains? Subspace of the "I'll do anything for him" may be the prerogative of the submissive, but subspace of the "holy shit I'm high" variety is accessible by the vast majority of people with common brain chemistry. Anyone here going to argue you just don't experience a runners high, or you've never felt shocky and out of body when you cut yourself deeply in an accident?

Let's cut the crap and be honest.

*I* don't look to submit or bottom because I find it periodically creepy-feeling and far less exciting than dominating, and because my family dynamics were arranged in weird ways and I still resent my mother caving in to her mother all the time. Could I under certain circumstances? Sure - those people who trip that trigger and happen to have enough of my confidence know who they are. I don't center my identity around it because it's not a significant enough chunk of my identity. I can paint a room, but I don't consider myself a housepainter.

Other people I've met don't because they don't like mixing lack of control and sex, because they were traumatized in ways that make them flash back, because their family dynamics made them not want to lose control -- insert a panoply of reasons some oversharing types like me share and others dont.... and again....because it doesn't make them hard and excited and glowy inside and ...Dominating DOES.

I don't not-bottom because I am magically immune to the cooties that make being hit with something feel good while feeling not-good. This seems to be the crux of the "I can't have identical experience so it's worthless."


(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 7:52:17 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Many of you are new and don't know RavenMuse, he is someone who's posts and perspective I respect and admire.  This isn't his best subject and that was one of his worst posts.

The thread was quite civil and was clearly being talked about as a personal experience and how it had or had not helped someone grew, it had NOT yet been talked about as a universal measure of who was a good dominant.

Lets do our best to get back to that spirit.

I have bottomed a few times myself, first time all I got out of it was knowing that just because you are an officer in The Society of Janus doesn't mean you are not something of a nut job.  Pretty much a waste of a day.

As someone who strives to be  in touch with my feelings, I have at times wondered if some of my needs and desires weren't a bit submissive.  I recently auctioned myself off as a bottom and found that while it was interesting, I didn't go anyplace I was in any hurry to return to, wasn't bad, wasn't good but WAS clarifying to me.  I don't have much if any submissive in me.

I have allowed my current partner (lucky bastard that I am) to top me and we have both learned from it.  I have always liked my back scratched harder than most and I found out that I like being bitten pretty hard and it wasn't easy getting to a place where that pain turned bad.  My nipples have definite limits however, my new safeword is "they are going to come off"!

She learned that she is not so much a dominant as a very fucking sadistic top.  We learned that we can go anywhere together and do anything and that at the end of the day she is very much my beautiful little girl and I am very much her daddy.

For us, it has been time well spent.  So please, in that spirit, lets return to a polite conversation about what it means to US as individuals!   THANKS

(in reply to abusablepaintoy)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 7:57:03 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

I don't not-bottom because I am magically immune to the cooties that make being hit with something feel good while feeling not-good. This seems to be the crux of the "I can't have identical experience so it's worthless."


Actually, I recall several studies (including a small Mass General / Harvard study) that implied about 10 % of the population may experience "pleasure via pain" and that there is an actual structural anomoly in the brain that may be associated with this phenomena.  So there's nothing "magical" about not enjoying being a bottom.
 
And the crux of the argument is that it's invalid to take personal experiences and project them upon others as if they have value.  They have value to you individually, and that's all.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Grlwithboy)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 8:10:19 AM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I have allowed my current partner (lucky bastard that I am) to top me and we have both learned from it.  I have always liked my back scratched harder than most and I found out that I like being bitten pretty hard and it wasn't easy getting to a place where that pain turned bad.  My nipples have definite limits however, my new safeword is "they are going to come off"!

She learned that she is not so much a dominant as a very fucking sadistic top.  We learned that we can go anywhere together and do anything and that at the end of the day she is very much my beautiful little girl and I am very much her daddy.


shhh... what if they hear you and take away my membership to the club?

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 8:24:15 AM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		i agree with RavenMuse.  i cannot dominate, i've tried... it just don't work for me.  Hence, there will never be a time where i will know what it is like to be a Master/Dom (or Mistress/Domme in my case). 

A few have talked about how they 'bottomed' for a bit and unless i missed something, almost all referred to it in terms of pain or toys, used on them.  That does not make you submissive, nor does it give you insight into what i feel, think, need.  The only thing it did was told your brain what hurt, what was pleasurable, etc. 

~sigh~ lest anyone think otherwise (and you know who you are), this is only my opinion.

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(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 10:02:15 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

While I wasnt really able to understand the submissive mentality during bottoming, I did come to some degree of better understanding of "what its about" threw imagination and open mindness...even if this understanding is shallow.


Are you only imaginative and open minded when doing something that is out of character for you, and contrary to your nature?
 
John


I get your point and its a good one.

I am not saying people should do it or its necessary.

But if people are going to take the attitude that there is absolutely zip zero nadda nothing that a Top can take from the experience, then I am going to have to disagree because personal experience has shown me otherwise.

You can learn to program computers by purchasing books and software for a bookstore or you can go to college. If the end result is being able to program computers, then the means is irrelevant.

However, if the attitude is taken that it is impossible to learn to program computers with just books and software, well...thats wrong.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 40
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