RE: Spending time on the bottom

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RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 10:17:05 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

And the crux of the argument is that it's invalid to take personal experiences and project them upon others as if they have value. They have value to you individually, and that's all.

John

I thought the crux of this argument began with someone completely dismissing the individual value of our bottoming experiences as total nonsense.

I think the people posting about their bottoming experiences, myself included, have done a pretty good job of talking about this on an individual level and at least saying its possible to take something from the experience.

Speaking personally again, I cannot think of anyone off the top of my head who had the experience of bottoming/subbing/serving and said they didnt learn something from it.

The reason this topic cant go more than a few posts without it turning into a heated argument is because someone just has to come along and speak in an absolute sense, reducing other peoples experiences, choices, and lessons learned from those experiences as complete bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Some do some don't.... as for making them better.... total nonsense and typical switch claptrap.

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RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 10:34:47 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

because it doesn't make them hard and excited and glowy inside and ...Dominating DOES.

This is exactly how it is for me. I can enjoy the experience of being on the bottom. I can do what I am told and be quite compliant (though I do start laughing when they overplay the "Domination" card). However, it does absolutely zip zero nadda for me on an erotic level...not even an erection. The only enjoyment I found was through sensualism and endorhins.

I think people tend to try and apply labels based on what people do as opposed to how these things they do make them feal.

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RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 11:32:28 AM

Grlwithboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

I don't not-bottom because I am magically immune to the cooties that make being hit with something feel good while feeling not-good. This seems to be the crux of the "I can't have identical experience so it's worthless."

Actually, I recall several studies (including a small Mass General / Harvard study) that implied about 10 % of the population may experience "pleasure via pain" and that there is an actual structural anomoly in the brain that may be associated with this phenomena. So there's nothing "magical" about not enjoying being a bottom.

And the crux of the argument is that it's invalid to take personal experiences and project them upon others as if they have value. They have value to you individually, and that's all.

John

Fair enough. Universal value cannot be applied to everyone on anything. I never sought to beat anyone over the heads with my findings - which is not the same as calling bullshit when one's findings are called bullshit, either.My experiences on the bottom make me a better top because they make me a better person, a person who knows herself more intimately than if she had sat around and conjectured everything instead of trying things that are outside the comfort zone. Other people are going to get that in other ways, bottoming is not the ONLY one by far, but the pangs of derision and paranoia that this concept seems to throw out in its wake always surprise me.

I believe in the value of the well rounded Liberal Arts education blah etc. but it could be a pointless waste of hours to someone who wants to play violin for the Met Opera. It's when the first violin decides that anything outside conservatory is without merit that everyone starts to sound a little myopic too though.

As for endorphins, well damnable stats. I seem to find enough studies on birthing that suggest without them we'd be kind of fucked as a species, as well as enough reports on survival and endurance among men under duress to suggest that our body/brain stuff alters around pain - not to mention getting into the religious/trance aspects of altered states in other cultures. I guess my point is that it's *completely legit* to just say :

"I don't want to."

So why do we resort to arguments about nature, inability and the rest? I firmly agree that there are people who will gain nothing of value from the attempt. I don't think it makes their Dominance purer, their ability to be alpha more authentic, or any of the rest. I think it can be the result of careful, honest, self-assessment. The kind of self assessment that occurs when people have considered options and aren't rejecting options out of fear, but moving towards a logical conclusion out of desire.

That's pretty damn respectable, in my book.

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 8/11/2007 12:02:04 PM >

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RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 12:29:20 PM

Vampyrefledgling

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I appreciate what SimplyMichael (as well, of course everyone else) said.

Archer's historical allusions to Guild life and work during the Industrial Revolution were thought provoking as well.

Applying absolutes to anything (with the notable exception perhaps of mathematical equations) is useless. Whether or not brain chemistry says ten percent of the population equates pain with pleasure is irrelevant. We are not speaking of whether or not Dom/mes found the experience of bottoming pleasurable of not (although clearly this is the turn the conversation has taken), but of whether or not the practice is common and useful.

I fail to see why the debate becomes so heated. It is not a matter of devaluing the preferences of each other (come on, in our situations, really?) It does not make you less of a Dom/me to have spent time as a sub, obviously it does not.

Someone mentioned that it used to be common practice for a new Dom/me to spend time serving a more experienced Dom/me in the community. Would that have been useful, in your individual experience? Or do you think it is better to learn as you go, speaking to other Dom/mes? I have learned a great deal speaking with other submissives and reading things written by fellow submissives. Which would you have preferred?

~Fledgling

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RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 12:37:39 PM

Grlwithboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vampyrefledgling

I appreciate what SimplyMichael (as well, of course everyone else) said.

Archer's historical allusions to Guild life and work during the Industrial Revolution were thought provoking as well.

Applying absolutes to anything (with the notable exception perhaps of mathematical equations) is useless. Whether or not brain chemistry says ten percent of the population equates pain with pleasure is irrelevant. We are not speaking of whether or not Dom/mes found the experience of bottoming pleasurable of not (although clearly this is the turn the conversation has taken), but of whether or not the practice is common and useful.

I fail to see why the debate becomes so heated. It is not a matter of devaluing the preferences of each other (come on, in our situations, really?) It does not make you less of a Dom/me to have spent time as a sub, obviously it does not.

Someone mentioned that it used to be common practice for a new Dom/me to spend time serving a more experienced Dom/me in the community. Would that have been useful, in your individual experience? Or do you think it is better to learn as you go, speaking to other Dom/mes? I have learned a great deal speaking with other submissives and reading things written by fellow submissives. Which would you have preferred?

~Fledgling

I went from a "trainer/mentor" model of learning, to a multi-mentor "talk to people I find interesting" model of learning. I think initially having a specific trainer was OK for me as someone young and overwhelmed and going off on my own more was ideal for me as I was less young and overwhelmed and more clear about what I wanted. I also have found that my discussions with senior (experienced) submissives and bottoms to be as valuable at times as my discussions with other Dommes and Doms. I have learned a ton of technical things from bottoms with more experience in the activity than I've got, both of us taking personal anatomy and preferences with a grain of salt and expanding.

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 8/11/2007 12:38:17 PM >

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RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 2:23:08 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

And the crux of the argument is that it's invalid to take personal experiences and project them upon others as if they have value. They have value to you individually, and that's all.

John

I thought the crux of this argument began with someone completely dismissing the individual value of our bottoming experiences as total nonsense.

The context of my reply was specifically to Grlwithboy. But it's equally valid when applied to those who say that there is never an individual value to a Top having a bottoming experience, as it is to those who say that there is value in all Tops having a bottoming experience.

John

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RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 2:29:26 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

So why do we resort to arguments about nature, inability and the rest? I firmly agree that there are people who will gain nothing of value from the attempt. I don't think it makes their Dominance purer, their ability to be alpha more authentic, or any of the rest. I think it can be the result of careful, honest, self-assessment. The kind of self assessment that occurs when people have considered options and aren't rejecting options out of fear, but moving towards a logical conclusion out of desire.

That's pretty damn respectable, in my book.

I have no quarrel with that. And I think you can make a reasoned and logical argument in support of individual value to a Top that bottoms. One that's indisputable based upon individual accounts, including your own.

You win that debate, hands down. Now declare victory and gloat for a bit. :)

John

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RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 2:31:16 PM

Grlwithboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

So why do we resort to arguments about nature, inability and the rest? I firmly agree that there are people who will gain nothing of value from the attempt. I don't think it makes their Dominance purer, their ability to be alpha more authentic, or any of the rest. I think it can be the result of careful, honest, self-assessment. The kind of self assessment that occurs when people have considered options and aren't rejecting options out of fear, but moving towards a logical conclusion out of desire.

That's pretty damn respectable, in my book.

I have no quarrel with that. And I think you can make a reasoned and logical argument in support of individual value to a Top that bottoms. One that's indisputable based upon individual accounts, including your own.

You win that debate, hands down. Now declare victory and gloat for a bit. :)

John

Oh, it's more my style to make skull necklaces out of my foes.

Heh.

(insert totally fucking joking emoticons for anyone joke challenged )

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 8/11/2007 2:32:32 PM >

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RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 2:34:29 PM

PairOfDimes

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LA's response was good and concise, as is often the case. I'd add that many people grow pickier and more decisive about expressing kink as they mature--so, a person might switch initially, but later come to prefer one role over the other.

I'm no great defender of needing to understand the psychology of submission--surely we've all done things to make others happy, or let someone else make decisions for us at some point in our adult lives. Bottoming to learn new sensations or new toys can be helpful--although it doesn't have to be "proper" bottoming or submitting. In most cases, you can just take your new paddle and whack your own thigh with it to figure out how it feels.

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RE: Spending time on the bottom - 8/11/2007 2:57:21 PM

theq

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vampyrefledgling
Someone mentioned that it used to be common practice for a new Dom/me to spend time serving a more experienced Dom/me in the community. Would that have been useful, in your individual experience? Or do you think it is better to learn as you go, speaking to other Dom/mes? I have learned a great deal speaking with other submissives and reading things written by fellow submissives. Which would you have preferred?

As someone here pointed out, there are several ways to program. Someone can learn from one or more of those ways. Likewise here there are a number of ways (you brought up two...apprenticeship and talking with other Dom/mes). I have learned from both of these methods as well as time being completely as the submissive in a relationship. There are a other things I have learned from...outside of these catagories (trying not to digress too much).

What can be certain is we haven't all learned in the same way. The learning experiences and value derived from each type will vary.

The largest way I have learned has probably been with my own experiences with a submissive as their Dominant (good and bad experiences both). The bad experiences weren't completely bad as the girl and I (individually and as a couple) both learned/grew from them and have usually made something positive out of them as a couple. I hope to continue this trend in the future with the girl currently in my life.

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