RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (Full Version)

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came4U -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/13/2007 8:26:29 AM)

Laws like these are created/changed sometimes because some people:

a) have no common sense

b) they leave the responsibility of what they eat/drink up to a corporation.

c) people would do anything, say anything, even be hurt..for money.

and before you jump on me about comment b, leaving to responsibility = if you trust the place you get your fast food from to be anything more or less than fast or food then you need to reconsider and factor in your own habits, your own laziness, your own responsibility. The options of liability rest upon the simple 'buyer beware' concept. Yet the very concept of responsibility is being misguided and misused in such instances.  A. if you eat at such places, expect any of several types of issue (we all know that by now), B. When that issue arises, why be surprised? and C. No one's life and limb should hand in the balance of such mediocre establishments, they are not feeding a Nation under a gun-to-head regulation, people flock to 'em. 

These places should have (as cigarettes) a fat content/probability of heart-attack, diabedes, etc from such consuption (for those consumers who eat such garbage habitually) warning.  

If anything, IMO, This lawsuit and any similar does not even seem in the least bit legit.  The cost given to this suit management team and the complaintant was a piss in the pot compared to what profits were made by free advertising and this suit's ability to set precedent (it won't happen again).

I see liability upcoming IF AND ONLY IF such corporations act as a soup kitchen to the masses (ie: N'orleans and Katrina) and they feed the needy, homeless and starving for months upon end (for free) and those people end up ill. But, you don't see them doing that, do you?

People pay, people get sick, they keep going back.  Promote having them banned altogether and do not purchase from them ever, that is the ONLY way to stop it.




girl4you2 -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/13/2007 10:10:35 AM)

http://ifnews.if.fi/en/latest-topics/liability-newsletter/the-truth-about-the-mcdonalds-hot-coffee-trial.html

Mrs Stella Liebeck, 79, who was in the passenger seat of her grandson’s car, bought a cup of coffee from a drive-through window of a McDonalds restaurant. The grandson drove the car forward and stopped momentarily so that she could add cream to her coffee. When she tried to open the lid, the entire contents of the cup spilled onto her lap, causing third-degree burns to her thighs and groin areas. Liebeck was hospitalised for 8 days, during which time she underwent skin grafting. The burns left permanent scarring and she remained ill until two years after the incident.

After she was released from hospital, Liebeck contacted McDonalds and asked them to compensate her expenses, totalling $20,000. McDonalds refused and offered her $800.
After this, Liebeck sued McDonalds, initiating the famous trial in which the jury determined $200,000 as suitable compensatory damages for her medical expenses and disability. However, since Liebeck was found at fault in spilling the coffee, the damages were reduced to $160,000. Subsequently, the jury found McDonalds’ conduct reckless, callous and wilful and ordered McDonalds to pay Liebeck $2.7 million in punitive damages, which is roughly equivalent to the sales of McDonalds’ coffee over two days.

Weighty evidence

The trial heard that, according to McDonalds’ in-house instructions, coffee sold at their restaurants should be at a temperature of 83 - 88 C while in most other restaurants it is approximately 60 C. Expert witnesses confirmed that liquid at 82 degrees causes third-degree burns in less than three seconds, whereas at 60-degrees it takes 20 seconds to cause a similar burn. In other words, if spilled, 60-degree coffee cools in such a way that it does not cause burns.

A McDonalds representative testified that the company had known of burns caused by its coffee for 10 years. Their documents revealed more than 700 claims by people burned by coffee, and that the company had paid over $500,000 in related damages. Furthermore, a U.S. burn research centre had demanded that McDonalds reduce the temperature of its coffee.

The trial revealed that McDonalds intentionally kept its coffee hot to save money. Hot water improved its aroma, enabling them to use cheaper coffee types. Furthermore, the fact that customers did not complain about cold coffee reduced the number of free coffees given in compensation.

A McDonalds’ representative told the court that the company was aware that temperatures over 60 degrees could cause burns. Despite this, their quality assurance manager testified that McDonalds had no intention of reducing the temperature of its coffee since customers wanted their coffee hot. He also said the coffee was too hot to drink immediately after it had been poured into a cup, but that customers bought coffee on their way to work or home and did not drink it until at their destination, allowing it to cool to drinking temperature. However, the company’s own research presented in court showed that most customers consumed their coffee immediately upon driving off. For this reason, the serving temperature of the coffee made it unsuitable for drinking. Although McDonalds knew of the burns caused by hot coffee, the company had decided not to warn its customers of the hazards involved. A McDonalds representative admitted in court that without a related warning, customers would hardly understand that they could suffer third-degree burns from the coffee.
Moreover, the jury found that the injury sustained by Liebeck was decidedly more severe than she could have reasonably expected to result from a coffee spill. Thus, McDonalds had neglected customer safety by serving coffee that could cause third-degree burns from their drive through line.

Unknown compensation

After the jury’s decision, the judge reduced the punitive damages awarded to Liebeck from $2.7 million to $480,000 because they were considered unreasonable. Both parties appealed against the amount of compensation but eventually entered into an out-of-court settlement for an undisclosed sum before the beginning of the new trial. So the final outcome of the case remains unknown although it is thought that the amount of damages was further reduced.

Jury members said after the trial that although the case seemed ridiculous at first, it became clear during the process that McDonalds cared little about the safety of its customers and that, in the end, the evidence clearly showed that McDonalds had caused Liebeck’s injuries through negligence.

The trial successfully demonstrated that McDonalds served coffee to drive-in customers at too high a temperature although it was aware that coffee could have, and had already, caused numerous third-degree burns. On this basis, it is easy to agree with the jury that Mrs. Liebeck was entitled to damages.

just the facts. note the prior cases, the recommendation of a burn center, reasonable expectations for something sold as consumable, et al.




ShyMistress -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/13/2007 1:37:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: girl4you2

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShyMistress
Mind you when someone gets almost 3 million for a lap of water, I could almost see where his lawyer is coming from...after all death is worth so much more! (yes I am being sarcastic lol)

I think 90% of the lawsuits out there are silly,


you may think it's silly, but tell that to the woman who was served coffee at a temperature too hot for human consumption (so that mcd's could be remembered for having hot coffee), with a top very hard to get off--the woman was stopped in a parking lot and had to brace the cup in her lap to get the top off. 3rd degree burns to your thighs and genitalia aren't fun. she didn't get anywhere near this amount, and didn't even get enough in the end to pay for her medical bills. would you wish your mother/grandmother to suffer 3rd degree burns (full thickness, by the way) requiring skin grafts just so that mcd's could continue serving hotter than allowable coffee? they had been told many times to lower the temp, but it was easier to just figure in the cost equation accounting analysis than lower the temp as had all other fast food places. silly??? think of that the next time you think of having sex and it's an excruciatingly painful thought just urinating. frivolous? do some research into safety and see how many of these things came about from "frivolous" cases, and then how much the person actually got versus how much was initially awarded. full disclosure. i really think you need to get your facts straight.

 
Her original awardment was a grand total of $2.9 million...later, through appeal, the amount was reduced to $450,000...so I do have My facts straight. Just because I do not agree with running off to court and soaking way more money then needed to compensate themselves is no reason to assume that I do not agree with some of the lawsuits out there. And YES...90% of lawsuits that are in intent to sue ARE silly. Shit if I could sue for everything that was been wronged by Me I would be sitting on a very fat ass rolling in the big bucks. I feel bad that she got burned sure, but in reality do I agree that it gave her legal just cause to be awarded 2.9 million? No...not at all, which is obviously not only My opinion as her award went down after the appeal. As for medical bills...how would you know her bills and if that was enough to cover them? Not all the places in the world run the same fees for med bills, and not everybody has the same coverage. (ouch to the girl who had to pay approx 3,000 for a bee sting...never have had to pay anything close to that!!)
 
One time I was even served a steak (after emphatically asking for it to be cooked without mushrooms) and the cook had forgotten and stuck them all over it...then took them back off as he remembered. I didn't notice the burn so much as there was a chunked black pepper that had been used as the spice for it. Did I sue? No...and I ended up stuck in emergency with a freaking breathing tube stuck down My throat to keep it open for air...not to mention the other lovely things such as My stomach being pumped that I endured. I dealt with it yes, but not in a courtroom bemoaning My own silliness at not noticing the usual warning signs I get before consuming enough to do damage.

As for My gramma...when she was alive...she wouldn't struggle with a lid from a hot cup that was in between her legs, she had more forethought then that.

Oh and when quoting someone whom you are scolding (took Me back to the days when mom would wave her arms around while yabbering and who also would not try removing a lid from a hot cup of coffee in her lap) you may want to finish all of what someone is saying...I did go on to say that I have had situations where I also could sue due to allergies and did not. And as I described above...I think that was a little more rights to sue then the mcdonald guy or the hot water lady...both whom could have used some form of self-preservation. (Though I still hold fast that allergy ridden people have every right to eat where they want, and expect their food done right! Even the not-so-swift.)


{ Edited to add that though you did paste an article here about it...many others state the amounts as being the ones I quoted...at any rate the exact dollars are not the issue but the vast difference in what is expected to what should be received }




LafayetteLady -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/13/2007 4:28:17 PM)

Everybody keeps going back to the hot coffee trial.  The only relatinship between the two is that both concern McDonald's as the defendant.  The issues with the coffee temperature were made clear at trial.  The issue of liability with this cheese allergy is not going to be made clear at this trial, if it even ever happens.

Someone who is so allergic to something that it can kill them and the first phone call they make is to the restaurant that more than 30 minutes ago got your order wrong?  Do people with severe food allergies (such as this alleged one) have the right to dine out at the same places as everyone else?  Quite frankly, no, they don't.  If you have a serious shellfish allergy, are you going to eat at Red Lobster, even if you don't order shellfish?  Of course not. 

Personal liability is the issue.  If someone is allergic to bee stings and they go on a tour of a honey manufacturing plant, then get stung by a bee, do they have the right to sue the plant?  Of course not.  They assumed the risk.  Cases like these are no different than all the cases that supposedly revolve around "lifestyle" geared violence.  There are always more questions than answers in the media about the case.  What did the other two people order?  Could one of their meals been mistakenly bitten into by this man?  Such a severe allergy and he doesn't check before leaving?  Why not?  They drove more than 30 minutes and prepared to watch a movie in a dark room causing him to not see the cheese?  Why were they now eating cold food?  Did they microwave it first?  Why didn't they notice then?  Primarily I think this case is lost on that phone call to the McDonald's before calling 911.  No one with that severe of an allergy doesn't first seek medical attention before contacting the restaurant.  Case has more holes than wormwood.




Petronius -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/13/2007 7:06:11 PM)

I found it interesting, and distasteful, to read all the "let's defend the huge corporation" hype.

Assuming the facts are accurate, it is a simple matter of contract law.

The customer offered to pay for a burger without cheese.

McD's accepted.

The customer paid the money. McD took the money.

McD failed to meet its contractual obligation.

The customer was damaged.

Pro-corporate people claim the customer was stupid? Doesn't matter and is irrelevant to McD's obligations.

Claim that the customer brought it on himself? Doesn't matter and is irrelevant to McD's obligations.

Claim that the hospital bill is small for the damage?  Doesn't matter and is irrelevant to McD's obligations.

Now about the ten million.

Maybe it is too high. I personally don't think it is high enough.

Let's remember -- or learn -- that customers don't usually claim their injury was worth that much in compensation. The large figure is for punitive damages.

That's what is set by a jury to punish a defendant for acting improperly. If it's a multi-billion dollar corporation like McD's with a corporate policy then punitive damages are often set quite high.

Put another way, how big a baseball bat does one need to hit McD over the head to get it to change its policy?

Punitive damages in this case are generally set to force a corporation to make some fundamental change. Here it seems McD's needs to train all its minimum-wage employees to follow customer orders and to meet McD's contractual obligations.

That's a big expense for McDs. I'm not sure even ten million will force them to do it.

We live in a capitalist society. McD's has every right to hire the cheapest incompetent workers it can to boost it's profits; jury's have every right to nail McD's to the wall when the same incompetent workforce violates a legal contract and seriously damages a citizen.





LafayetteLady -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/13/2007 7:32:07 PM)

Actually, I am not defending McDonald's or any other corporation.  What I am saying is that the facts that have so far been presented (albeit by the media) leave far too many questions unanswered.  The population of the United States has begun to believe that they no longer hold personal liability over their own safety, and the facts presented in this case in the news report support that the Plaintiff did no more than make a request.  We still have no idea what the other people ordered and if he could have (in the darkened room) mistakenly bit into their meal.

It is not a defense of corporations, but the fact that far too many people are looking for get rich quick lawsuits.  The woman with the "finger" in her chili for instance.  Investigations showed she set the whole thing up. 

My main point is that when someone has THAT severe of an allergy that it is truly life threatening, you don't first call the restaurant to bitch that they put cheese on your burger.  First you call 911.  I don't believe for one minute that any of this claim is true.  Not because I choose to defend a corporation, but because I feel that people need to take person responsibility at some point for their own safety.  I once went to McDonald's (5 minutes from home), ordered a cheeseburger, brought it home.  It had cheese on it, but no burger!  I think the people that McDonald's and other fast food restaurants employ are frequently the most inept I've ever seen, however, I don't believe that human error caused this man 10 million dollars worth of pain and suffering.  I actually don't believe that he suffered at all and has likely made the whole thing up.





LafayetteLady -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/13/2007 7:36:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petronius

Assuming the facts are accurate, it is a simple matter of contract law.



Further, it is taking "contract law" to the simplest form taught in a class room.  Reality rarely follows class room theory.  Even if the case did come down to simple contract law, then the relief sought could be no more than the cost of the burger that was delivered in error.  The violation of that "contract" of sale does not warrant a $9,999,999.00 award for damages based on the facts presented.




Lordandmaster -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/13/2007 10:05:53 PM)

No, you don't have your facts straight.  The final amount was settled out of court, and the sum was never disclosed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShyMistress

Her original awardment was a grand total of $2.9 million...later, through appeal, the amount was reduced to $450,000...so I do have My facts straight.




Sinergy -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/13/2007 11:22:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petronius

Assuming the facts are accurate, it is a simple matter of contract law.



Further, it is taking "contract law" to the simplest form taught in a class room.  Reality rarely follows class room theory.  Even if the case did come down to simple contract law, then the relief sought could be no more than the cost of the burger that was delivered in error.  The violation of that "contract" of sale does not warrant a $9,999,999.00 award for damages based on the facts presented.


As was pointed out, LafayetteLady, 

Compensatory damages are refunding the person the cost of their cheeseburger and medical expense.

Punitive damages are beating McDonalds over the head with enough of a penalty that they alter ther corporate training standards to adhere to their contractual obligation to provide the service they are contractually bound to provide.

You can think that it was too much money, but the money was not for her burn, it was to convince McDonald's to make a fundamental alteration in their corporate policies.

Sienrgy




SusanofO -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/14/2007 12:31:11 AM)

Whatever became of the obese family who ate at McDonald's something like 4 times a week, who was suing McDonald's a few years ago, for supposedly "making them fat?"  

Was that case dismissed? Anybody know? It was after the hot coffee case, but before this one.

Just curious. I noticed mcDonald's is now serving a selection of healthy salads, as well as the other stuff.

- Susan 




Petronius -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/14/2007 5:52:46 AM)

I believe that the "McD food made me fat" lawsuit was also a simple matter of contract law.

The claim, I recall, was that McD's, in one geographical area, had heavily advertised their food as good for children, healthy and nutritious, and something that every good parent would want to feed their children in huge amounts.

Based on this advertising and claim, the parents accepted McD's offer to provide healthy food, paid McD's for the food that was good for their children, had McD's take their money, and then had McD's serve food that was actually bad for the children.

McD's and others pushing the notion of "tort reform" could claim it was about "it made me fat."

In reality it was about contract violation.

It is a simple issue: if you're a corporation and contract to deliver something you better deliver it or face damages. If a jury determines your improper conduct was especially bad or especially dangerous you'd better be willing to face huge damages to convince you to change your policy.





came4U -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/14/2007 7:04:46 AM)

quote:

Whatever became of the obese family who ate at McDonald's something like 4 times a week, who was suing McDonald's a few years ago, for supposedly "making them fat?"


That was me, I ended up eating my siblings and now I have no legal proof of our fatness now. [:(]. I still eat too many torts, oops I mean tarts.




SusanofO -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/14/2007 11:02:30 AM)

came4u: LOL!!

Petronius: Thanks for the reply. But, isn't what consitutes nutritious food (for any particular person, that is)a matter of interpretation? Kind of like someone advertising they "make the best burger in the world?"

- Susan




SirEbonyPhoenix -> RE: McDonalds sued for $10 mil for not holding the cheese (8/15/2007 7:08:11 PM)

See, this is why, when it comes to fast food places (which I seldom patronize), that I will go anywhere but McDonald's. I'm sure that Ray Kroc is turning over in his grave by now. *sigh*




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