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Using "Insecurities" - 8/11/2007 4:07:17 PM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
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Have recently been wondering about insecurities what with the threads that have been posted about them, but i've been wondering about in a different point of view than those threads.

i have "heard" Dominants in the past mention that they would use a submissive's insecurities to keep her in her place. To play on them to make her work harder, longer, and to be constantly striving to "earn" a place with him.

While i agree that some one else can't "make" another person grow and confront the insecurities in his or her life and it is not the Dominant's "responsibility" to do that for His or Her submissive (As i firmly believe that each person must deal with their own inner issues by themselves, not that they can't have encouragement or counseling, but the work that has to be done, has to be done by the person themselves.) However i found the concept of using a person's insecurity and childhood woundness against them highly disturbing and, in my opinion, an example of unethical ownership. But i know i am coming from a place of someone who has had to work to overcome my insecurities and childhood woundness, so i was looking for others' opinions and maybe a different way of looking at it.

Thank you in advance for your posts,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

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Post #: 1

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/11/2007 4:14:17 PM

angelikaJ

Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
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re: "being forced"
in my opinion, if there is no possibility for "no", then "yes" has no real meaning.

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 8/11/2007 4:16:03 PM >

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 2

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/11/2007 4:15:07 PM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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i don't see how using a persons insecurities can possibly help to build trust between two people. It might seem like an easy way to get the sub to toe the line but at what cost? i would feel like i was being manipulated by my dom if he used my insecurities against me and it would clam me up so fast he'd never get me to open up again for him.... that is if i stayed after that, which would be slim. i would probably leave as i could not submit to anyone i didn't have 100% trust in not to harm me, and to me making me insecure to get me to do what he wants would be emotional abuse.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 8/11/2007 4:16:29 PM >

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Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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Post #: 3

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/11/2007 4:28:24 PM

LdyScarletDomina

Posts: 118
Joined: 4/22/2007
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I have been very lucky. Over a year ago I suffered from severe panic attacks, stress related seizures, severe needle phobias that prevented dental procedures for years, and a host of small fears and insecurities including abandonment issues and a fear of having my arms restrained. In the space of a year My Master helped me go get off the Xanax i was dependant on, taught me deep breathing, meditation, self-confidence and how to face my fears. He helped me heal my submissive heart and helped me improve my ability as a Dominant Female by helping me recognize my own self worth. As a result I am a much better person and my submission and my abilities as a Mistress have value born not of fear and a need to be needed, but an adult wish to please and be pleased because Darn It I deserve both ! LOL

IMHO anyone who uses someone's insecurities to keep them low and non-functional is not a dominant, but a control freak who's only way to "dominate" is to keep someone dependant, frightened, and low-self esteemed. I believe that a true, whole submissive is one that serves not because of their insecurities, but because of the strengths that their Dominant sees value in.

"Why have a broken doll when I can have a beautiful, whole girl."

Lady Scarlet

< Message edited by LdyScarletDomina -- 8/11/2007 4:33:34 PM >

_____________________________

"Great balls of fire. Don't bother me anymore, and don't call me sugar." Scarlet O'Hara, Gone With The Wind

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RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/11/2007 4:34:22 PM

Grlwithboy

Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
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This may sound nutty.

My slave is an emotional masochist. His humiliation desires encompass things that are "for real" humiliating, which go outside the scope of erotic humiliation that most people want to play with who do "go there."

I find that when his deeper insecurities are subject of scene and employed in a scene, it's a way for him to get a handle on them. It's cathartic.

That was something we discussed and mutually realized would be 1. benficial if not simply not-harmful in a bad way for him
2. OK by me, erotic for me, not putting me in the position of being enlisted as therapist, but on board with the benefit he finds in it.

We're always discussing it, we're always re-negotiating it. I'd never push it onto him at a time when he honestly is not in the right mindset for it (NOT to be determined solely by me - I read his cues, I care if it is a good time or not.)

So I would say I don't use his insecurities to keep him down and dependent, but the fact that I understand him and want to play the same edge he does is a nice cohesion.

(in reply to LdyScarletDomina)

Post #: 5

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/11/2007 4:47:46 PM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
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Grl,

Thank you for your answer, that is a perspective that i had not looked at it from. It does seem to me, though of course i don't really know either you or your sub, that you are not using his insecurities in a way that is "harmful" to him, but actually, are bringing him some healing in the way that you have incorporated them into your scenes. As one who also craves humiliation play that a great many have labeled extreme, i see some of what you are saying. But given some of your other posts on this site, it seems that while you may use them in a scene, you are not using them to keep him dependent on you.

Thank you again for your answer.
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to Grlwithboy)

Post #: 6

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/11/2007 4:51:06 PM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

Part of what i'm also wondering, that goes along with this same vein, that while a Dominant is not a therapist and can't fix anyone other that Himself or Herself, is He or She responsible for "making" His or Her submissive get some help or counseling if needed? And would not doing so, be the same thing as keeping a person insecure or wounded?

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 7

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/11/2007 4:52:22 PM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

Thank you velvet and LdyScarlett for your replies.

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 8

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/11/2007 4:57:46 PM

Grlwithboy

Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Part of what i'm also wondering, that goes along with this same vein, that while a Dominant is not a therapist and can't fix anyone other that Himself or Herself, is He or She responsible for "making" His or Her submissive get some help or counseling if needed? And would not doing so, be the same thing as keeping a person insecure or wounded?

heartfelt

I think it's really best when people arrive at the conclusion they need help on their own, because help is not likely to help if they don't see a problem.

I should add that my slave is very comfortable with therapy and meds and is actively working on his issues in more conventional channels - HIS call - and I don't think I'd be able to conscience playing this way with him if I thought he was not doing any work on himself/herself - either in therapy or in other ways other than me!

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 8/11/2007 4:59:56 PM >

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 9

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/11/2007 5:03:19 PM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
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Grl,

Thank you again for your reply. It is odd, that while i totally agree that it is best for a person to come to the conclusion that he or she needs help and any counseling or other form of "help" won't really help unless the person realizes that he or she really has a problem, that i also feel like a Dominant that doesn't "make" His or Her submissive look at the issues he or she may be having is doing that person a disservice. i know they are two completely divergent points of view. That is part of the reason that i asked the question to begin with. Trying to come to some sort of conclusion as to why i have two completely different view points.

Thank you again,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to Grlwithboy)

Post #: 10

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/11/2007 5:16:00 PM

Grlwithboy

Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Grl,

Thank you again for your reply. It is odd, that while i totally agree that it is best for a person to come to the conclusion that he or she needs help and any counseling or other form of "help" won't really help unless the person realizes that he or she really has a problem, that i also feel like a Dominant that doesn't "make" His or Her submissive look at the issues he or she may be having is doing that person a disservice. i know they are two completely divergent points of view. That is part of the reason that i asked the question to begin with. Trying to come to some sort of conclusion as to why i have two completely different view points.

Thank you again,
heartfelt

I think if you are with someone who has a problem, ordering them into therapy may not be the best way to handle the issue, but perhaps guiding them into a realization that therapy might be good is responsible as an ongoing endeavor. I think "not doing anything" is, as you intimate, not exactly a responsible outlook.

It depends on the relationship, I guess in some pairings ordering IS the right way because it is the format that maintains the D/s framework best. I just know that my style is much more one of trying to help someone to see things, and guide them towards their options.

Lastly, for one's own sanity, sometimes therapy has to be an ultimatum of a relationship at all. Giving the person a chance to change something that absolutely has to go for you to stay with them.

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 11

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/11/2007 5:24:50 PM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

That makes sense, that combination of options makes a lot of sense to me, thank you Grl.

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to Grlwithboy)

Post #: 12

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/12/2007 5:19:06 AM

ShiftedJewel

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Joined: 12/2/2004
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But what about the opposite side of the coin? What about the one that uses their insecurities as a weapon of manipulation? The "I told you this was a major issue for me now look what you've done!!??" person? Just playing the devil's advocate here, but I've known those types. They can take the smallest issue and eventually hide Mt Rushmore in it. After that they pull it out every time something doesn't go their way and use it as a trump card.

I'm sorry, but insecurities are too easy to let go of if you really want to.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 13

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/12/2007 5:31:23 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
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Oh i agree with you SJ, wholeheartedly, that insecurities shouldn't be "used" from either side. i don't know if they are always easy to get rid of them, some of them can be very deepseated based on a huge wound, but i will agree that they can be dealt with if the person wants to deal with them, and doesn't want to "use" them as an excuse for "playing the victim".

* Edited to add, it is good to see you posting again SJ.

heartfelt

< Message edited by heartfeltsub -- 8/12/2007 5:32:22 AM >

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 14

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/12/2007 5:53:14 AM

Smythe

Posts: 369
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Oh i agree with you SJ, wholeheartedly, that insecurities shouldn't be "used" from either side. i don't know if they are always easy to get rid of them, some of them can be very deepseated based on a huge wound, but i will agree that they can be dealt with if the person wants to deal with them, and doesn't want to "use" them as an excuse for "playing the victim".

* Edited to add, it is good to see you posting again SJ.

heartfelt

I don't think it's right to use or manipulate anyone's insecurities in order to make them more dependent or work harder for approval. At times, however, this just happens on its own. A more insecure partner may work hard to gain approval or please their partner. This is natural in some relationships and there is nothing wrong with enjoying the dynamic it creates. In a trusting and intimate relationship it can be kind of fun. Grl's situation is the extreme of this, as she has incorporated her slave's need for deep humiliation into something both exciting and useful for him.

I would never say that my submissive is insecure, but I would call him eager to please and I like that a lot.
Smythe

_____________________________

Do not consider painful what is good for you.
Euripides

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 15

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/12/2007 6:10:16 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

Smythe,

First, thank you for responding. Secondly, i have re-read your post about 4 or 5 times and i still have a hmmm about the following couples of sentences.

quote:

A more insecure partner may work hard to gain approval or please their partner. This is natural in some relationships and there is nothing wrong with enjoying the dynamic it creates.

i can see why it would be natural, but what i'm hmmmming about is, if a certain action can be seen to have its roots in insecurity would it not be less pleasing than if it stemmed from a desire to please the other that is not based on insecurity. i'm not sure i am explaining myself well and i tend to look at things from an s-type perspective and not a D-type perspective, so that may be part of my confusion.

If i knew or could tell that someone is doing something for me and the motivation behind them doing so was to gain my approval because their insecurities constantly made them feel like they didn't have it, that would bother me. Again i looking at this from an s-type perspective, but hopefully that example made my previous statement make more sense.

Thank you again for your reply Smythe,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to Smythe)

Post #: 16

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/12/2007 6:10:59 AM

BoundDragon

Posts: 265
Joined: 3/20/2007
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I have a few insecurities but using them to keep me in check would end up disasterous... I would not hang around in fear of self distruct.

I am now in a relationship where he knows my insecurities and accepts them & me for who I am. At the same time he is supportive and gives me encouragement when I decide I'd like to face them or sort them out.
By doing this he has earnt my undying love and loyalty. He has my total trust and my wish to keep him happy.

Far more the better outcome

< Message edited by BoundDragon -- 8/12/2007 6:11:48 AM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/12/2007 6:43:50 AM

came4U

Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
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Using someone's achilles heel against them is surely a no-no. One has to be careful who and when they disclose their 'issue' also as it might put the sub at risk for an unqualified mind-fuk. Unless someone was a humiliation slave/sub who craved such and the person Domming is taking care (as grl is) to not lead the sub into dire mental distress, the dom should take interest in the insecurity to a. just observe (know)or b. aid in self-improvement. Otherwise, telling every issue might be a bad idea if it falls into the hands of a monster.

(in reply to BoundDragon)

Post #: 18

RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/12/2007 7:42:01 AM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
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Yeah, I think of it often and how I can make her feel good about herself when I do all my evil things to her. I think of it so often, I can just do a Lucky Albatross-like link to a number and she understands what it is. This is number one. Why waste all that time on the same thing, just give her the number.

The other day I was over at CE’s house and fumbling through the bag trying to find the leather slapper as she was nude, face down, in bed waiting. I mumbled as I pulled out cuffs, bits of rope and chain until I finally found it.

This was midday and she had been up most of the night, unable to sleep and we had talked briefly before. She said she felt like she was weird at times. I told her there is a good weird and a bad weird, like with a good pain and a bad pain. Yeah, she may be a little weird to want me to whip her and I may be a little weird to enjoy whipping her, but these are good weirds.

I mean there is only so much psychotherapy or telephone numbers to psychiatrists that I can offer while I am swinging a slapper. Matter of fact, whether we both need therapy is beyond me. All I know is that she wants to be whipped now and I want to whip her. So after a brief warm-up I told her number one again. Then I tied her to the bed and started very hard with the slapper before I changed to the blue suede flogger I had managed to find in the bag. When it was over, she was relaxed, happy and slept for hours after I left. She didn’t look for therapists that day and neither did I.

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 8/12/2007 7:51:28 AM >

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You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

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RE: Using "Insecurities" - 8/12/2007 7:59:38 AM

LATEXBABY64

Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
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I think what happen to Lady Scarlet is very cool. there are Dom's that are caring and very nurturing like that kudos to them on the flip side there are predator's who are trained to spot these and use these for their benefit. this causing more damage to the human mental condition

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 20

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