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RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 12:39:07 PM   
SmokingGun82


Posts: 575
Joined: 6/19/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64
do  you have a medical Degree of some sort or  do you have some kinda of degree in chemestry and  understand how the body works with chemicals..both natural and synthetics ...you assume to much with out backing it up with the facts.. i guess your never looked at DWI case  studies huh...  


Do you have a medical degree? Or a degree in chemistry? Have you even seen someone who's had a drink?

Despite not having a medical degree or a degree in chemistry, I know difference between a beer or two and staggering, falling down drunk. One of them is a condition where it wouldn't be a big deal to do anything I would normally do- the other is a situation where I should give up my keys, etcetera.

Care to share the DWI case studies you're referring to? Because if you start quoting MADD, I'll feel a lot better about ignoring you.


_____________________________

It frightens me, the awful truth of how sweet life can be.
- Bob Dylan

Proper capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my Uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 12:48:32 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		just a fast response to a already pr oven question yep yep
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunk_driving_%28United_States%29

(in reply to SmokingGun82)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 1:07:38 PM   
lovewithoutfear


Posts: 153
Joined: 7/11/2005
Status: offline 		Grlwithboy wrote,
"When I was pro I would ask "been partying?" rather than intimating that I'll pitch you out if you have, because they'll just LIE. I want to know what substances I might be up against and make a decision based on what I feel I can do. "

I think that's realistic.  A good way to gain information and make an informed judgement. 

I am not categorically against mixing SM with entheogens, but personally I wouldn't play SM in altered states (others' or my own) with anyone but Sir, and he's not into that kind of thing anyway.  He has on one or two occasions gotten me tipsy as a D/s thing, a way of taking me out of control.   But other than horsing around and a little spank here and there he didn't do pain play with me while I was in that state, what would be the point?  It is a playful headspace, not an SM kind of headspace. 

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 1:10:41 PM   
earthycouple


Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

just a fast response to a already pr oven question yep yep
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunk_driving_%28United_States%29


I don't even have to look at this link to know it may or may not be factual.  wikipedia is NOT an acceptable source for cited material because it is user created.  Before you ask how I can say that...I'm an MBA student who breathes source citing and fact finding right now.  Wikipedia is unacceptable in any educational realm.

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Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 1:14:59 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		The number of drinks consumed is a very poor measure of intoxication largely because of variation in physiology and individual alcohol tolerance. However, it is generally accepted that the consumption from sober of two standard drinks (containing a total of 20 grams) of alcohol will increase the average person's BAC roughly 0.05% (a single standard drink consumed each hour after the first two will keep the BAC at approximately 0.05%), but there is much variation according to body weight, gender, and body fat percentage. Furthermore, neither BAC nor the number of drinks consumed are necessarily accurate indicators of the level of impairment. Tolerance to alcohol varies from one person to another, and can be affected by such factors as genetics, adaptation to chronic alcohol use, and synergistic effects of drugs

Thanks Latex, you've disproved your own argument.
There is no guide to what makes someone impaired. Angel can drink me under the table, I get woozy after a beer. I would not consider him impaired after 2 or 3 drinks, however I would never play after more than 1.  Logicaly, if someone seems impaired, its a bad idea to play with them.  But to assume based on teh amount they have had whether or not they are impaired unless it is a HUGE amount is just as ridiculous as to assume they are OK to play just because you really want to at the moemnt.

DV



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VampiresLair

(in reply to lovewithoutfear)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 1:36:54 PM   
SmokingGun82


Posts: 575
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

just a fast response to a already pr oven question yep yep
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunk_driving_%28United_States%29


Assuming Wikipedia is an acceptable reference since we're not in an educational context, all that article says is drinking and driving is bad.

But since it is an unsourced, disputed article on a site that would have placed any links firmly in the "sketchy" column already, I'll assume what you really meant was "No, I have no empirical information on driving while intoxicated."

Like DV said, alcohol affects everyone differently. I spent five years working in bars- I consider my judgment of how impaired someone is rather accurate, and it has nothing to do with simply counting how many drinks they've had.

That said, when it comes to playing under the influence, for me the limit is roughly the same as when I'd no longer drive. Which may or may not be the same as the time the law thinks I should stop driving.





_____________________________

It frightens me, the awful truth of how sweet life can be.
- Bob Dylan

Proper capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my Uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 1:43:03 PM   
earthycouple


Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline 		Hey, Latex!  maybe we should all have breathalizers that are locked to the zippers on our toybags.  Bag won't open without breathalizer reading under legal driving limit.  Oh wait if I was stupid drunk I'd just rip the bag open anyway.

So...we are waiting for that data...

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D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 2:06:41 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		um Ok
here is one
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/research/AlcoholHighway/3__alcohol_effects.htm

here is another

http://www.alcohol.vt.edu/Students/alcoholEffects/brainBody.htm

(in reply to earthycouple)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 2:32:28 PM   
SmokingGun82


Posts: 575
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline 		Congrats. You've proven, again, that in certain situations too much alcohol can be bad.

Notice all the qualifiers in that statement: certain situations, too much, can be...

You seem to think there's some pre-set amount of alcohol that's too much. That's fine- for you. But people are different- even the links you took out of the Wikipedia article and reposted rely on BAC... which is going to be different after any given amount of drinks based on weight, height, etcetera- and what's "too much" for one person might be nothing for someone else.






_____________________________

It frightens me, the awful truth of how sweet life can be.
- Bob Dylan

Proper capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my Uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 2:35:44 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Latex,

Once again, you can't even grasp the concepts contained in your own citations.  Nobody here is doubting alcohol has an effect, so does sugar, oxygen, and oh, sex and love, all things we play with.  Nobody is advocating getting drunk, we are simply pointing out that your hysterical rantings against even one drink are silly.

In addition, we SEEK to put the submissive into an altered consciousness where they are quite unable to do even simple tasks and as a dominant many of us seek a similarly altered consciousness or top space.  While both of those states are natural, I would hate to see what would happen to a submissive forced to drive after a heavy flogging or needle scene! 

So before we start screaming fire in a movie house, lets let a bit of reality sink in, shall we?

quote:

  


"With respect to the simpler behavioral processes, there is evidence that neuromuscular responses may be impaired in some individuals at BACs as low as .04% to .05% w/v [weight per volume] and that many more individuals suffer such impairment at BACs in the range of .10% w/v. However, studies indicate that experienced drinkers can, if motivated, overcome these impairing tendencies at BACs as high as .20% w/v. Vision per se is not greatly affected by alcohol at BACs of less than .10% w/v, but above that it becomes impaired in most persons. ‘Simple’ tracking performance does not appear to be seriously degraded at BACs of less than .10% w/v, but the performance of ‘complex’ tracking tasks has been degraded in many individuals at BACs in the .05% to .10% w/v range. The ability to divide attention between tasks can be impaired at very low BACs (i.e., .02% w/v) and is often impaired at BACs above .08% w/v.
Studies of the more complex behavioral processes indicate that risk taking may be increased at moderate BACs for introverts and light drinkers. Moreover, low doses of alcohol have been observed to improve the intellectual performance of heavy drinkers and alcoholics while having the opposite effect on lighter drinkers. Alcohol has been found detrimental to memory, particularly the long-term memory, of heavy drinkers." (pp. 48-49)




< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 8/12/2007 2:40:35 PM >

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 2:38:21 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		there is evidence that neuromuscular responses may be impaired in some individuals at BACs as low as .04% to .05% that is one drink

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 2:39:42 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RVSearching

Would you play under the influence? If not why wouldnt you and if so why would you?


I'm not allowed to be "under the influence."  He has allowed me a glass of wine before playing, but that's quite rare.  Master doesn't get drunk.  He will rarely have a drink before enjoying me, but I think in three years I can count on one hand how often that has happened.


(in reply to RVSearching)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 2:43:02 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline 		A lot of what we do is risky.  To me this isn't all that risky at all. 
I very rarely get that drunk where I'm out of it and the times I have been like that
I've only wanted to go to sleep and not play.  It's a non-issue for me.
I most certainly can also keep my wits about me when I'm just buzzed.
I relax and enjoy.  To me, copping a buzz and fooling around is fun.  Reminds me of my youth.   

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 2:45:13 PM   
SmokingGun82


Posts: 575
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

there is evidence that neuromuscular responses may be impaired in some individuals at BACs as low as .04% to .05% that is one drink


Notice how they used the word "may?" Theoretically, you "may" choke on a Cheerio. You "may" slip in the shower, crack your head, and die. Do you advocate never eating a single Cheerio or showering?

I'm assuming you don't. You're a safety freak, fine, I understand that, and people will accept that. But just like it's impolite to push religion down people's throats, it's impolite to keep hammering away about safety. There's risk, right, understood. Does the potential "reward" outweight the risk? Some of us obviously feel that yes, it does.

Also, a BAC of .04 or .05 after one drink will, again, depend on the person. I can tell you from experience that ten minutes after one drink my BAC will be .02. Please quit generalizing everyone and aiming for the most sensationalistic scenario possible.


_____________________________

It frightens me, the awful truth of how sweet life can be.
- Bob Dylan

Proper capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my Uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 2:46:31 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SmokingGun82

Congrats. You've proven, again, that in certain situations too much alcohol can be bad.

Notice all the qualifiers in that statement: certain situations, too much, can be...

You seem to think there's some pre-set amount of alcohol that's too much. That's fine- for you. But people are different- even the links you took out of the Wikipedia article and reposted rely on BAC... which is going to be different after any given amount of drinks based on weight, height, etcetera- and what's "too much" for one person might be nothing for someone else.







so if a person jumps from building and does not go splat and one person does does it make it right

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 2:50:24 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Latex,

I have no doubt SOME people have SOME impairment at SOME levels of alcohol consumption.

Which of course means SOME people have NO impairment at SOME levels of alcohol consumption.

Clearly you can't handle yourself if you have even the smallest drink and thus shouldn't drink.  It is important to know your limits.

That said, I assume since "impairment" is so devastating you don't allow anyone you play with to experience endorphin or adrenaline rushes or in any way get caught up in the play and enter any sort of altered consciousness.  Again, I guess it is important to know your limits.

In my case I want my partner to be so impaired by the alternative state of consciousness my play has induced in her that not only should she not drive but shouldn't stand up or walk.  I myself want to be so lost in the moment that I can't tell people are watching me, that I am in the middle of a party, or notice any other sort of distraction.  The only thing I want to exist for me is US, her and I as I cradle her in my arms at the end of our play.  I too know my limits and anything less than that is a hard limit to me.

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 2:52:13 PM   
SmokingGun82


Posts: 575
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline 		Who's arguing right and wrong? If they want to jump from building to building, that's their life and their decision. Besides mentioning that it might be a dangerous behavior (once, rather than repeatedly), why should I concern myself with it?

So to answer your question, yes, if someone wants to jump from building to building, assuming they aren't trespassing, I support that decision.



_____________________________

It frightens me, the awful truth of how sweet life can be.
- Bob Dylan

Proper capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my Uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 3:00:37 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		i look at this way.. i called it simple logic if what you do puts others at risk . while drinking  then yes it is wrong ..
cause if you cause the death of someone. while drinking the courts will see that as negligence and maybe convicted in a wrongful death suit or accidental man slaughter either way your choice

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 3:03:01 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I have always found the enjoyment of play to come from revelling in the physical sensations....why dull the senses with drugs?

To Me...it is a waste.



having an orgasm while stoned definately isnt dulled.......its....well....delicious....

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Altered states. - 8/12/2007 3:06:35 PM   
SmokingGun82


Posts: 575
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline 		You obviously cannot comprehend the concept of having a drink/three and not being legally drunk. Yes, in some states, if you are legally drunk when you have an accident where someone dies you'll be charged with manslaughter. But if you're BAC is below that states limit... right.

Personal responsibility and personal choice, you know.

On the subject of personal responsibility... maybe I'm missing something, but your argument seems to hinge on people not being able to make proper choices after even a single drink. If that's the case, then wouldn't, using your own rules, it be hypocritical to blame someone for deciding to drive when drunk? After all, one drink and you can't make the decision of who to play with/whether or not to play, how could you possibly be expected to be level-headed enough to make a decision such as whether or not to drive?


_____________________________

It frightens me, the awful truth of how sweet life can be.
- Bob Dylan

Proper capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my Uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 60
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