darkinshadows
Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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quote:
I hold to no beliefs in the sense that I don't wish to put something between me and the direct experience of my life. I'm sure being a Christian, you know this is what Jesus meant when he condemned idolatry.
But it is still a belief - even if you think there is no such thing unless it can be proved in black and white - that is still a belief - that is your belief. And it makes it no less as important as my belief - but we would just disagree (possibly) - just because we (generic) may share different beliefs, doesn't mean I have to disregard your opinion, claim it foolish or accuse you (again generic) of being weak, powerless or lacking in the ability to hold up your belief or theory. Even a belief is based a therory - again - a matter of semantics - I have a therory on on God and His existance, and that is my belief - Just as someone may have a theory only on evolution and that is their belief.
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Believe it or not, I'm actually very spiritual...just not according to any established belief systems subscribed to by others. Science doesn't have all the answers and true science never claims to be the truth (that's why you always read or hear the word "theory"). Science looks at something and determines as accurately as it can...what, when, where, why, and how it happened
And You, by this statement I am surmising that you believe that all religious peoples are subscribing to facts gained vicariously from others. And that is just wrong. People suscribe to any religion for any amount of reasons, some of which, are because they have studied, learnt and been told by God - as difficult as that is for you to comprehend. Not everything is just from one book. In fact, what you have said about religious believers can be said for scientific followerers. Not all are learned, factual based - some people place their belief solely upon a book - a theory - which leads to an existance of a particular scientific belief.
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I find this more credible than simply saying things are just so because god made it that way. Science also leaves the book open because scientists have learned from experience that as new information becomes availabe, the theory will change.
But not every religion says that. You are taking religion and generalizing it. You can't just take a book and read it and say - hey, that must be true - you take a book, examine it - combine it with others and come to a concluesion. Yes, God says it's so - but there are a miriad of other resources you can delve into to discover if its the theory you can believe in.
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I'm sorry but that's incorrect. Again, science is theory based on collected information. I think it's valuable to bring up an example that demonstrates what I mean by the differences between science and religion.
Science may be that - but theory leads to belief - and religions are no different. Just because you cannot accept the theory of chrisitanity or hinduism, doesn't mean it isn't a theory, it just means you don't believe in it.
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"There is absolutely no proof that the sun will rise tomorrow."
People take the sun rising as a given. Yet neither science or religion can in any way guarantee you will see it tomorrow. All the information science has is based on what's already happened, which has nothing to do with tomorrow. The best science can do is say, "Based on observations, it's highly probable the sun will rise tomorrow." If it rises, then another observed event is recorded and adds weight of the theory.
Religion on the other hand says, "Have faith in god that the sun will rise tomorrow." If it does, does that prove that god exists? How do you know? Did your faith or belief make the sun rise? How can you tell? You feel something inside you and you call that god speaking to you. How do you know it's not just a feeling people can have anyway? If you're talking about the voice in your head, we all have those but I doubt that's what you're referring to.
Again, you are taking something as solid and generalizing. Not all chrisitans(using them as that is the belief system you have used) would say that - and you are placing your perception onto the page, not the reality of what happens. As a christian I wouldn't ever say 'I have faith in God that the sun will rise tomorrow' - because I would have all the information before me - not just of God, but of science - and science may tell me that its not going to. But I would have faith that there is a reason behind the whole occurence because I have a theory upon it - but then, even science would have a reason and even some sciences have faith in that reason - but not all - based upon some theory.
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I'm not attacking religion or anybody who follows it. I'm simply pointing something out that's a trait in human nature. People want to believe there's a meaning and purpose for their existence and all that they go through in life is for a reason. That's where religion comes from and the purpose it serves. People aren't content with..."I don't know." There's no malice intended in pointing that out.
Again, a generalisation that all people need a purpose - a meaning - but not all do. Some people believe that , we live, we die. What happens in between has no relevance other than that our life exists and evolves in some 80 - 90 or more years and then we die, get mouldy and just go into the earth. For some people, religion serves a purpose, but there are also some people who are content with the 'i don't know'... but are still a follower of a religion - and equally their are others who 'do know' whether they are religious followerers or science followers - and just because you cannot understand that, doesn't mean its wrong or doesn't exist. You may have and show no malice towards these people - but you are showing fundemental generalisation.
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I started this tread talking about creationists attacking science and pointed out the inherent differences between the two. In the process, I've stepped on some toes and apologize. It's all out there for anyone to see and just like the people we all are, we will look at some things and ignore others for a host of reasons. If people want religion in their life, they will find a way to make it fit. There's nothing wrong with that so long as they don't go killing each other over who's version is right.
Treading on toes? No - but doing the exact same thing as you have felt attacked by, just in reverse - yes. If people want religion in their life, some will make it fit, for others, it just does. Same as science - there are those who will make it fit in and for others, it just does. But for the wiseest - they will take both - and embrace and be thankful for the chance to make that choice.
The one thing we do agree on is that we hope that people stop killing, both in the name of religions and in the name of science - because it happens on both counts. If a man is going to kill, at least let the man be honest about the way, and not hide behind either science nor religion.
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My view of the world is a circle that surrounds them all but in trying to explain this I'm seen as dismissing them because I refuse to accept any one of them as the "truth" and for the record, I have explained that science does not purport any truth, only theory. If this is fundementalism, then I don't know the meaning of the word.
I have not seen anyone accusing you of not accepting any one of them as truth. Truth hasn't even been covered. I have seen generalisation, and I don't wish that to sound as though I am attacking, but you have to be open minded and realise that not all religions are the same and that people are individuals and unique and that each person comes to a belief differently and via many types of theories. Your explaination of the difference between science and religion is that you see that theory and belief are not compatable - but the reality is that all science and religion are a belief based on a theory. Belief is a mental act and acceptance of something based on consideration and examination - and theory offers that consideration - the two are entwined.
Fundamentalism is the adherence to a theory - no matter what - closing oneself off and judging on the basis of a set idea or an unproven thought. And generalisation of any peoples brings the worst of fundamentalism - and it is that which creates wars - religion and science are just the excuses of fundamental hatred and non acceptance.
Peace and Love
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.dark.
...i surrender to gravity and the unknown... |
Evolution is a Lie? - 
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