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RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? - 9/4/2007 10:22:42 PM

Bobkgin

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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatKnight

:ponders: Sorry for the double post, but another thought occured to me that seems important enough for its own section. Now we're getting into specifics.

An inexperienced sub might not KNOW their limits or when they're in trouble.

I can easily see a situation where such a person is in great pain, may honestly assume something bad is happening - and be wrong.

Similarly, such a person might be in great pain, assume this is simply the price of disobedience, and something bad is on the verge of happening.

And yet, I would think an inexperienced sub to be in the most need of the added safety of a safeword.

Similar arguments can be made for inexperienced doms.

I don't know. Difficult question.

I have to admit, it was amusing seeing all the different ways you referred to things I'd said (someone, a poster, etc).

I think the real problem is that some people can be too ambitious than their skills and experience would permit.

So the safeword is invented as a way of entering those areas while still retaining some semblance of control over the matter.

The problem is, the safeword is sub-driven.

Yet safety is a dom's responsibility.

It would be like the passenger grabbing the steering wheel and saying "pull over".

Two people cannot control the situation safely.

In my opinion, the most inexperienced people ought to be the most cautious.

Anything a sub says that indicates a problem ("help", I'm in trouble", "stop") ought to be enough to stop the action.

A "safeword", per se, isn't required.

The reason the "safeword" exists is because some subs will say "stop" when they really mean "continue, I like it".

But that is a -very- dangerous situation, because again, the inexperienced may have forgotten their safeword in the heat of the moment and be actually calling out for help.

Not to mention it is -illegal- to ignore a woman saying "stop" during bdsm. The dom could be arrested and charged with forcible confinement, assault and rape if he ignores his sub saying "stop".

So regardless of what the sub might have wished for, "stop" means stop. No ifs, and, or buts about it.

So again the "safeword" serves no useful purpose.

Better to learn to say what you mean, than send out mixed signals.

And better the inexperienced dom not take anyone beyond his ability to handle.

The only purpose a "safeword" pretends to play, is to give the sub the ability to bring the action to an end. But as I said, she has that ability simply by saying "stop".

As for gags and the inability to speak. I would not recommend anything a sub cannot easily spit out as long as the individuals are not experienced. Gag play is dangerous (think of what happens to vomit if the mouth is blocked up with a gag).

Safewords can play a part for nervous inexperienced subs. But a good dom will never take such a sub to a place where she needs to use it. If she does need to use it, I think it a good bet she should find a new partner.

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 9/4/2007 10:24:17 PM >

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RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? - 9/5/2007 4:47:20 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

Yet safety is a dom's responsibility

This is a load of crock. Safety is everyone's responsibility; Dominant, submissive, top, bottom..

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RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? - 9/5/2007 5:21:15 AM

PrincessEllie

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I think I'm in agreement with Stephann (and Cat Knight too).

I understand where you're coming from Stephann, and I can see how it might be impossible for many submissives to do anything but cry during dicipline. I think I myself might be the hysteric sub that wouldn't be able to get a word out edgewise, but still, I feel that a medical safeword should be allowed. For me, in play there are safewords which mean "Stop, let's reassess" and medical safewords (RED) which mean "medical emergency, likely panic attack." That sort of thing, I guess, I would have to have a Dom allowing just because of my problems in that area. But I can also see not wanting it (or at least not expecting it). If you're sub is pretty normal in the mental issues area, then it makes more sense to me to not have a safeword in current use. But despite all of that, if you were diciplining your sub (let's say with a good paddling) and she safeworded, you'd stop...right?

This is where I agree more with Cat, because you never know what might go wrong, the emergency safeword I think should always be an option. Trust your sub to know when the pain is just that, pain, and to know when something harmful (and not just hurtful) is going on. Life can be unpredictable, and you don't want to be caught mid swing with a paddle when the shit hits the fan.

I'm still muddling through Bobkgin's commentary. I will say that the fact that I am both very sleepy and very sick might contriubte to my confusion. When I am talking about dicipline, I don't mean for it to be used on a submissive who was physically or mentally unable to do something. I mean for it to be used when a sub disobeys. Let's give a ficticious situation:

You ordered your sub to vaccuum the house while you were at work. It's her day off and you guys had a long night of kinky fun. She's really tired and puts off cleaning for a while to read a book. And then say, at two she decides to nap for an hour or two so she can be fresh and awake when you come back (and so she can be awake to clean.) What if you came home and she was sleeping on the bed and the house was still not clean!? She did not try and disobey you, but it happened anyway as an accident. She still made a misake and the likely punishment would be a few spanks.

THAT is the sort of dicipline I'm talking about. It might not even hurt as badly as sceneing, but the emotional turmoil is great enough that emotional (and even when you try your best to be safe: Physical) problems could arise. It's not that the sub is telling you when to stop, or when she it starting to hurt and feel bad. Those things come from punishment. She'd be telling you with a safeword that it was an emergency (your spanking was hurting her Hemorrhoids or something).

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RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? - 9/5/2007 5:45:19 AM

burningdesires47

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I do use safe-words during punishment, on both sides of the lash. It's important, it's necessary, and I still need to know if my sub is reaching their tolerance limits, still need to tell my Dom if there is a problem. As a sub, I consent to certain things being used as punishment (and as a Dom, ask my subs to do the same). And I can withdraw that consent at any time. I have to trust my Doom to respect those limits and my safe word, and he has to trust me to stick to my agreement not to safe-word out of the scene except in agreed-upon situations. If either of us break that trust and agreement, then that's grounds for re-visiting the rules, re-negotiating, and deciding to re-affirm our agreements and relationship or go our separate ways.

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RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? - 9/5/2007 7:24:50 AM

CatKnight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

I have to admit, it was amusing seeing all the different ways you referred to things I'd said (someone, a poster, etc).

No offense, Bobkgin

It was just rather late, I've joined the thread late and didn't want to wander around looking for usernames.

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RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? - 9/5/2007 1:06:11 PM

Celeste43

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Yet safety is a dom's responsibility.

It would be like the passenger grabbing the steering wheel and saying "pull over".

As for gags and the inability to speak. I would not recommend anything a sub cannot easily spit out as long as the individuals are not experienced. Gag play is dangerous (think of what happens to vomit if the mouth is blocked up with a gag).

These selected lines struck me. Sorry I haven't figured out how to do the multiple box thing.

First, safety is everyone's concern. You don't know if she suddenly feels nauseous, only she knows what she's feeling.

Two I find the comparison faulty. A safeword isn't grabbing the steering wheel, it's turning to the driver in distress when your travel sickness acts up and saying "Pull over fast, I'm going to throw up". Is that bottom driven? Yes, and a good thing. Because the top or driver isn't a mind reader and won't know that the car will be filled with vomit unless the sub yells out.

As far as gags go, I don't agree. I'm usually wearing a ball gag and that's why I have a gesture to alert him there's a problem. I can start yelling loudly behind the gag which isn't usual for me and he would know there was an emergency and quickly stop play, get the gag out and deal with the problem. For problems that aren't emergencies, a cramp say, I have a gesture. I open and close both hands quickly, he removes the gag but not worried that there's a major problem, rubs my calf for a minute and then we go on. May not work for you but it works for us.

But I don't expect him to be a mind reader. And although he will pick up on changes in body language, it won't be as quickly as if I yell out. And honestly, if you're sick to your stomach there's no time to waste.

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RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? - 9/5/2007 4:00:22 PM

Stephann

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Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessEllie

I think I'm in agreement with Stephann (and Cat Knight too).

I understand where you're coming from Stephann, and I can see how it might be impossible for many submissives to do anything but cry during dicipline. I think I myself might be the hysteric sub that wouldn't be able to get a word out edgewise, but still, I feel that a medical safeword should be allowed. For me, in play there are safewords which mean "Stop, let's reassess" and medical safewords (RED) which mean "medical emergency, likely panic attack." That sort of thing, I guess, I would have to have a Dom allowing just because of my problems in that area. But I can also see not wanting it (or at least not expecting it). If you're sub is pretty normal in the mental issues area, then it makes more sense to me to not have a safeword in current use. But despite all of that, if you were diciplining your sub (let's say with a good paddling) and she safeworded, you'd stop...right?

This is where I agree more with Cat, because you never know what might go wrong, the emergency safeword I think should always be an option. Trust your sub to know when the pain is just that, pain, and to know when something harmful (and not just hurtful) is going on. Life can be unpredictable, and you don't want to be caught mid swing with a paddle when the shit hits the fan.

I'm still muddling through Bobkgin's commentary. I will say that the fact that I am both very sleepy and very sick might contriubte to my confusion. When I am talking about dicipline, I don't mean for it to be used on a submissive who was physically or mentally unable to do something. I mean for it to be used when a sub disobeys. Let's give a ficticious situation:

You ordered your sub to vaccuum the house while you were at work. It's her day off and you guys had a long night of kinky fun. She's really tired and puts off cleaning for a while to read a book. And then say, at two she decides to nap for an hour or two so she can be fresh and awake when you come back (and so she can be awake to clean.) What if you came home and she was sleeping on the bed and the house was still not clean!? She did not try and disobey you, but it happened anyway as an accident. She still made a misake and the likely punishment would be a few spanks.

THAT is the sort of dicipline I'm talking about. It might not even hurt as badly as sceneing, but the emotional turmoil is great enough that emotional (and even when you try your best to be safe: Physical) problems could arise. It's not that the sub is telling you when to stop, or when she it starting to hurt and feel bad. Those things come from punishment. She'd be telling you with a safeword that it was an emergency (your spanking was hurting her Hemorrhoids or something).

A few thoughts,

Yes, I'd back off on punishment, if I thought my slave was in distress. It wouldn't be a 'safeword' so much as simply understanding that she's in trouble. If I know someone well enough to be disciplining them, you better believe that their sounds, their motions, their eyes are more than sufficiant to tell me that she's in trouble. Even if her mouth isn't working, I can (and expect) to read her. Keep in mind, I consider 'safewords' just one of many means of communication. I don't use them, because I want my slave to use the normal means. If she's having trouble, I don't want her to think to yell RED I want her to think to yell "STOP I'm going to pass out!!" or whatever. As I've said, I use corporal punishment so rarely, that it's never been an issue for me.

Emotional turmoil.... again, it's an issue where one can't usually say "I can't take anymore." Within that turmoil, one is rarely self-aware. That's where, yes, safety is everyone's responsibility, but under such circumstances, it's a good bet that she's not going to be in much of a position to be safety aware; especially if the point of this particular 'scene' is carthesis.

Stephan

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RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? - 9/7/2007 10:06:26 PM

angelicsubbie

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i am still reading through all the answers....

but i find myself mixed on my feelings of discipline/punishment (yet again more or less interchangeable for me)...i understand the intent is to get rid of everything, that after you feel better...Sir got upset with me for the first time and punished me; i was beyond upset, and scared for 2 weeks....He admitted He may have gone over the edge, and we talked about it, but nonetheless, even the idea of upsetting him to that point is enough of a deterrent to prevent it from happening again. i try hard; but i'm still learning, and sometimes i seem to misinterpret what he says....

As for safewords; He asked me if i thought i should have a safeword, and seemed a bit surprised when i said yes....He asked if i should go beyond my comfort zone...i said yes. He brought me to tears, He brought me to fears, He brought me to depression for 2 weeks; i understnd it was not His intent to do that, had He known how much it was upsetting me, he would not have; however i did not safeword out. The right person needs the safeword but will not use it....in general everything about me says i need out before i actually safeword.

As for the idea of punishment, i am really struggling with it; even just reading this post is honestly kind of upsetting; to think back to how i have upset Him in the past. i understand the intent of it, i understand sometimes it is needed, but mentally i'm just not there, mentally it doesn't make things all better; it rubs my face in it, and makes me feel like i'm not in a healthy relationship. If i'm causing him anger, if i'm finding reason for Him to feel the need to act like that, if i make Him feel it is what He needs to do, then i am failing. Mentally i go back and forth....i want to kind of say no punishment, i can't mentally handle it (because He is learning that i really can't....) but on the other hand if i do it wouldn't be the relationship it is now.

Still trying to come to terms with it all; understand that it is meant for forgiveness...and that it isn't done out of anger (although i can't say that thats totally true). Hopefully there will be no need for punishment; i try my hardest.

But safewords; i think should always be there, i always try like hell not to use it, and have been in situations without a safeword where i have found myself needing one; due to honest physical injury, and have found another word to communicate that (generally using the person's actual name--they know something's not right ;)) There needs to be some way of communicating that. For some people, i think they could simply state the problem, i however; especially during punishment, cannot find many if any words; and need something to say to make things all better temporarily so i can handle things and discuss them.

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RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? - 9/7/2007 10:39:37 PM

angelicsubbie

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As for safety being the Dom's responsibility, i took think that it is a shared thing. Yes, i may have a safeword....however i've gotten myself into situations for potential harm without safewording; and someone needs to know me well enough. For instance, with a gradual build up, i will take a fair amount of pain; and then afterwards they are honestly surprised by how bruised i get, because they don't think they were hurting me that much, with the right build up i don't act like they are. i have the safeword, but don't use it; even when maybe i should. A dom needs to be able to read the sub well..

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RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? - 9/9/2007 4:39:34 PM

MasterLDesade

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Shadowen , just a point seeing you dont like history uncorrect so i will help you understand ok all good .
Crucifixtion , there were " Four "forms of the cross used .
1. A plain stake , you were just nailed to it .
2. The " Tau " cross , which had a Transom placed below the top .
3. Crux Commnissa ? dont know it , well its the one used on " Jesus "
4.  Crux Decussata ? St Andrews Cross . Two obliquely placed wooden beams .
And the Persian people were the first to use it as they would not defile the holy earth and was considered sacred ground belonging to Ormuzd the God , criminals were lifted off the ground so as not to defile the earth . Now do's that help you re-crucifixtion and your yearning for knowledge .
St Andrews and the Scottish Flag glad you mentioned that as well , the saltire of the cross appears on Flag of Nova Scotia , this saltire also appears on the naval jack of Russia , the Confederate Flag also had a saltire on it but was changed from a vertical cross to the St Andrews type so as not to be a Religeous Symbol but as William Porcher Miles put it a " Heraldic " one . And as far as Scotland haveing exclusive rights to use the cross or being the only ones are dispeled above also he was patron St to Scotland, Russia, Romania, Amalfi, and Luqa - Malta  ( also rope makers , interesting that one hey ) .
You know being " God's " Son he knew he was gonning to be reborn and made " All Better " so if he did not enjoy it why put up with it , you are God's Son you know and if so this is not incapable of one's godself to get out of , seeing that you knew all this was going to happen anyhow .
Punishment and Dicipline are two very different things , i wrote this in my first post , we agree on that .
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RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? - 9/12/2007 10:48:47 AM

SirCache

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There has to be a safeword for me, in all things. I can't take the chance that I could harm someone regardless of the fact that they put themselves into a position where punishment is necessary.

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