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I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 1:11:33 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline 		Hello all.  Please bear with me as I try to put my question into words as clearly as possible.  First, I'll state the question to which I'm seeking answers and then explain a little bit about why I'm asking.

The question:  As a slave/owned property, what (if anything) could terminate your position as such? 

I ask this because over time I have seen many different scenarios described here.  I hope it will offend no one if I use specific examples.  For instance, daddysprop has explained that her master has taken many concrete steps to insure that she will never be other than a slave.  He is her legal guardian, she does not work, drive, or do any number of other independent things in the "outside world."  He has even "willed her," so to speak, to another in the event of his death.  It appears that she is his property and nothing she can do is going to change that.

On the other hand, Knight of Mists and Kyra and I all had an exchange once where it was said that she is his slave only so long as she obeys him.  When she withdraws her obedience, she has withdrawn her desire to remain his slave.  Not that mistakes mean she is no longer owned, just that willful disobedience is not something he will tolerate and it means that she has decided she no longer wishes to be his slave.  (I'm paraphrasing - from memory no less, so if I'm mistaken please clarify Knight or Kyra).

Then recently, I've read some threads that kind of touch on this subject and just today I read a post about a slave who was owned for years and that just ended this week.  I have no idea about any specifics but it got me wondering again.  Without flaming, fighting, or negative comparisions, I would love to hear what slaves and/or owners have to say about my question.  Again what, if anything, could you as a slave do to end your slavery?  As an owner, what could your slave do (if anything) to end his/her slavery?

As I stated the first time I posted on this subject, I fall somewhere in between daddysprop and Kyra (but closer to the end of the spectrum where daddysprop is).  By this I mean:  when I became Master's slave, it was made clear that I am His property for life.  Once I made the decision to become that, my freedom to choose to not be it in the future was gone.  I know some may find that extreme but that is the agreement that we have.  It is not to be judged as right or wrong by others.  It is simply how it is for us. 

I can absolutely see that, for some, willful disobedience could end their slavery and that's fine for them.  However, as my Master and I see it, if my own willful disobedience could end my slavery, if I wanted out all I would have to do is continue to be willfully disobedient and then I'd "get my way" and be released.  He has made it clear that that is not going to happen.  Willful disobedience is going to bring correction and then punishment, if necessary, but never release.  I'm not saying that is the "right" way, just that it's our way.  Further, it's not really an issue since I am not willfully disobedient, but we're speaking in hypotheticals here, ok?

In addition, though Master has not taken the steps that daddysprop's master has as far as control of her situation, money, etc., I am convinced that were I to attempt to leave, He would do everything within His power to insure that it would be very difficult.  There is also no doubt in my mind that He would "track me down" and bring me back to Him either because He has said as much.  When I became His property, it was for real and to Him that means forever.  I can't just do it until I don't want to anymore and then leave. 

Again, I'm not saying that's the case for others.  I'm not comparing and finding our way better.  I'm just explaining how our relationship works and asking how yours does.  So......slaves/property and your Masters/Owners......would you please be so kind as to tell me how this works for you?  And please, guys, take no offense at how I've stated anything or from how others may feel.  I'm simply very curious to see all the different viewpoints.

Thanks so much.....................luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 8/18/2007 1:14:41 PM >

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To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin
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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 1:21:33 PM   
earthycouple


Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline 		luci, you touch on something close to me right now.  There are times when I wonder what would have happened had Robert and I been more like your situation.  What if I had made the situation "stick it out" and "push through"?  got me. 

For me personally...I would only release someone if they harmed me or my family in some way. 

For the whole of the situation...I simply can't keep someone who doesn't want or feels they can't stay. 

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Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 1:22:20 PM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Hi luci:

I guess we're closer here to kyra's version. My Master doesn't punish. It's about my obedience. If I choose to not be obedient, I am choosing not to submit and that's the end of that. Certainly we'd be talking through things to determine what's causing my disobedience, but if it doesn't change, then he walks away.

I don't get the privilege of being disobedient without the risk of losing all.

This would be no small thing to me, and I like the extreme of consequences. It fits who I am and how I choose to live my life. If I knew I could act with reasonable impunity... well, it reminds me of a comedian I once saw on Johnny Carson way back when.

Don't remember his name, but he said that he was on a trip and was entering Pennsylvania. At the border, they had this huge sign that listed all the moving vehicle infractions and what the cost of the ticket would be if pulled over.

10 over: 50 dollars
20 over: 75 dollars
30 over 100 dollars

kind of like that.

And he said he read the sign and checked his wallet, said "Hell, I can afford that!" and sped off down the road at 30 mph over the posted speed limit.

Within my relationship, I don't ever want the wiggle room of deciding I can afford disobedience to his word.

My sign with my Master would be closer to "10 over: capital punishment"

In other words - the death would be my relationship, and that's a price that is far too high for me on any given day of the week.

I like it that way just fine.

juliet


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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 1:27:22 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Three things. Two that I know of and one which no one knows. Death, dismissal and the mysterious unknown X factor, that being I have no idea what the future holds though I can make a fairly good educated guess based on past experiences. The truth is though, I am what I am right now, in this moment, and I acknowledge the reality that that which I am now could change at any time depending on the circumstances. I can't/won't/don't foresee that happening, but my crystal ball is in the shop.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 1:35:01 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra
I don't get the privilege of being disobedient without the risk of losing all

I like how you stated that last sentence there.  I honestly wish that's the way it worked here as well, at least in theory.  Here's why:  When I state how disobedience is not going to get me released, a lot of times people read that as "Wow.  No matter how bad of a slave you are, you don't have to worry."  I guess one could look at it that way except that I'm NOT disobedient.  I DON'T use that knowledge as some sort of license to be "bad." I am the best slave I can be because I want to please Master. 

He doesn't punish, either, on the whole.  One time I confessed to something that He had told me not to do and there was a punishment.  But, for both of us, it was more like correction.  Not physical, hot, or kinky - just methods/rules put in place to correct my future behavior.  I have not done it again, I'm happy to report.

quote:

Within my relationship, I don't ever want the wiggle room of deciding I can afford disobedience to his word

Yeah, I have to admit, I don't really want it either but He makes the rules.  In saying that my willful disobedience is not going to get me released, He is not giving me free rein to disobey, of course.  He is looking at it like I stated earlier:  "you're not just going to disobey so I'll release you".  He sees that as me being in control of if I stay or if I go and that's not an option.  Having that wiggle room certainly does NOT mean that I use it.  Beautifully stated as always, juliet.  Thanks alot...............luci 

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 1:37:34 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: earthycouple

luci, you touch on something close to me right now.  There are times when I wonder what would have happened had Robert and I been more like your situation.  What if I had made the situation "stick it out" and "push through"?  got me. 

For me personally...I would only release someone if they harmed me or my family in some way. 

For the whole of the situation...I simply can't keep someone who doesn't want or feels they can't stay. 

Thank you very much, Donna.  There are always the "what ifs" that we'll never know the answers to.  You last sentence really summed it up.  Makes perfect sense to me.....................luci

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To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 1:39:19 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Three things. Two that I know of and one which no one knows. Death, dismissal and the mysterious unknown X factor, that being I have no idea what the future holds though I can make a fairly good educated guess based on past experiences. The truth is though, I am what I am right now, in this moment, and I acknowledge the reality that that which I am now could change at any time depending on the circumstances. I can't/won't/don't foresee that happening, but my crystal ball is in the shop.

Celeste

Too bad, I had some questions to ask you  If you wish to elaborate, you mentioned one of the factors being "dismissal."  I suppose what I'm really asking is what would get you "dismissed?"  What behavior or lack of?  Just curious.  Thanks..........luci

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 1:39:42 PM   
Grlwithboy


Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline 		I operate very much on the other end of the spectrum, and it makes the sense of slavery feel incredibly real to us.

It can end for any reason I choose. It can end one day without him ever knowing why, simply being told thank you, don't write. There is no guarantee obligation or certainty attached to this. He could remain the perfect slave and I could simply pick another Mistress and send him to her.

I know a lot of people think this cruel, inappropriate, etc. But this is what works for me and my slave to heighten the sense of ownership, as much as "I'll track you down" heightens it for others. I don't know if there's something endemic to F/m dynamics there - I'm sure there are M/f couples who have the same outlook?

That said, my slave is not my primary romantic rel. and M/s is for me personally, not compatible with that relational model.


< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 8/18/2007 1:40:17 PM >

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 1:39:46 PM   
mmb1


Posts: 304
Joined: 8/3/2007
Status: offline 		I agree julietsierra..................I especially do not disobey deliberately, as I think most beginners do not.  It is something that needs to be "controlled" by the submissive, the desire not to disobey as opposed to the death of the relationship, tough for strong minded people, but you are right submissiveness is directly connected to obeying, it should not be tolerated, disobedience, and the sub should strive for that.  :)

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 1:47:02 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy
It can end for any reason I choose. It can end one day without him ever knowing why, simply being told thank you, don't write. There is no guarantee obligation or certainty attached to this. He could remain the perfect slave and I could simply pick another Mistress and send him to her

Wow.  See, this is exactly what I'm seeking.  I wouldn't have thought of those things.
quote:

I know a lot of people think this cruel, inappropriate, etc. But this is what works for me and my slave to heighten the sense of ownership, as much as "I'll track you down" heightens it for others

Exactly.  I'm very curious as to what works for different relationships and who cares what others think about it?
quote:

That said, my slave is not my primary romantic rel. and M/s is for me personally, not compatible with that relational model

I see.  Thanks for your wonderful answer............luci

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To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 1:50:37 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mmb1
I agree julietsierra..................I especially do not disobey deliberately, as I think most beginners do not.  It is something that needs to be "controlled" by the submissive, the desire not to disobey as opposed to the death of the relationship, tough for strong minded people, but you are right submissiveness is directly connected to obeying, it should not be tolerated, disobedience, and the sub should strive for that.  :)

I totally agree with you both.  In no way am I saying disobedience is ever good or acceptable as it is not, in my opinion.  Just because willful disobedience is not going to get me tossed out on my ear does not mean that it is accepted or that I ever exhibit it, ok?  I'm speaking in hypotheticals here.  I am not disobedient and Master doesn't have to worry about me suddenly becoming so.  I have not nor will I ever seek release.  This is just a "what if" situation that I often see touched on upon the boards.  It fascinates me how much variance exists between different relationships.  Some say they will never be freed no matter how much they may want it and others say simply disobeying at all can end it.  Isn't it wonderful how different we all are?..............luci

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To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 1:55:37 PM   
mmb1


Posts: 304
Joined: 8/3/2007
Status: offline 		It can end for any reason a Dom chooses, but also respectfully, if either is questioning anything, it should be discussed before making a decision, which may be able to rectify, rather than "giving up".  I believe that the Dom is the Dom, the submissive is the submissive, and all rights are relinquished, but as far as what can cause you to get released?? There would be a lot that can, but there can also be a lot of reasons you may "ask permission" to BE released if due to treatment etc, and if they have taught you self respect, then, this is something that should also be respected and discussed. :)  It is a "relationship" regardless of all, discussing things on either end should be welcomed appropriately.

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 1:58:23 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mmb1

It can end for any reason a Dom chooses, but also respectfully, if either is questioning anything, it should be discussed before making a decision, which may be able to rectify, rather than "giving up".  I believe that the Dom is the Dom, the submissive is the submissive, and all rights are relinquished, but as far as what can cause you to get released?? There would be a lot that can, but there can also be a lot of reasons you may "ask permission" to BE released if due to treatment etc, and if they have taught you self respect, then, this is something that should also be respected and discussed. :)  It is a "relationship" regardless of all, discussing things on either end should be welcomed appropriately.

Absolutely.  You bring up a good point about reasons a slave may ask to be released.  I wasn't specifically thinking of that when I made the OP but folks should feel free to chime in with those as well.  Thanks for the food for thought...........luci

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To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 2:01:36 PM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		Hey Luci....great post as always hun!...my Master is very much like yours...He told me i have lost my ability to "walk away" that is no longer a choice i have. He says i am His for life...He also says, yes i can choose to not want to be His...or disobey...but then i'd just be a miserable slave wouldn't i? (LOL His words)...i personally NEED that kind of security...and so its kinda funny that thats exactly the kind of Master i found...or that found me.

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 2:08:08 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
On the other hand, Knight of Mists and Kyra and I all had an exchange once where it was said that she is his slave only so long as she obeys him.  When she withdraws her obedience, she has withdrawn her desire to remain his slave.  Not that mistakes mean she is no longer owned, just that willful disobedience is not something he will tolerate and it means that she has decided she no longer wishes to be his slave.  (I'm paraphrasing - from memory no less, so if I'm mistaken please clarify Knight or Kyra).


Close, but not quite it.  If I decide that I no long wish to be his slave, I am not going to be passive aggressive about it and disobey so I can be released.  If I no longer wish to be his slave, I would be rather direct and ask to be released.   

In the last two plus years, there have only been two times that I have come close to being willfully disobedient and in both of them my fear was controlling me and it had nothing to do with not wanting to be his slave.  All he had to do was warn me that I was getting close to disobeying him and it shut me down.  The fears I was dealing with were nothing compared to the fear of no longer being in this relationship.

The way that we define an M/s relationship makes it impossible for that relationship to exist if the slave does not obey.  I am his slave because I have consented to transfer all authority to him.  He is Master because he has chosen to accept having the authority in my life.  If either of those conditions cease to exist we would no longer have an M/s relationship as we define it.  To willfully disobey is to take back authority within my life.  When I do that I have also removed my consent to be his slave.  Those are the consequences of refusing to do his will.

Another thing that might end the relationship is if it becomes harmful for any of us to be in a relationship together.  We will not stay in a relationship that is harmful to our well-being. 

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 2:17:05 PM   
sambamanslilgirl


Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Daddy and i discussed this recently after looking back at the first 12 months of our togetherness in this relationship. even if i tried leaving Daddy (why would i want to anyway), i'm owned by Him no matter the type of relationship i enter with another. if i'm disobedient, that wouldn't be the cause to terminate His ownership of me either. i'm basically owned until the time of either His or my death and we have agreed not seek a replacement Daddy or daughter.  

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 2:20:19 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Hey Luci....great post as always hun!...my Master is very much like yours...He told me i have lost my ability to "walk away" that is no longer a choice i have. He says i am His for life...He also says, yes i can choose to not want to be His...or disobey...but then i'd just be a miserable slave wouldn't i? (LOL His words)...i personally NEED that kind of security...and so its kinda funny that thats exactly the kind of Master i found...or that found me.

Thanks Candy.  That line about being a "miserable slave" is so right-on!  I never thought about it but, as you said, I suppose I also need that kind of security.  Someone mentioned earlier how her slave knows that at any time for any reason, it could be over.  That's wonderful that that is what works in their particular relationship.  Pretty clever, actually.  As for me, I would constantly be on pins and needles, I think, and that wouldn't be really conducive to me being the best slave I could be.  It is amazing how such different methods work for everyone. 

I'm sure that, as with me, just because he makes it clear you're aren't going anywhere unless and until He says you will, that doesn't mean that you take that as a license to constantly disobey.  That's not it at all, is it?  For me, it just puts things in clear perspective:  If I ever did decide (for some insane reason) that I wanted "out," disobeying and acting like a total ass is just not going to get what I want for me.  It's simply going to bring discipline then punishment and eventually, as you said, misery.  As with you, I don't control when or if I go.  Thanks for your answer..............luci

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To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 2:21:57 PM   
mmb1


Posts: 304
Joined: 8/3/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you for the kind words slaveluci and breatheasone, you sound like you have an exceptionally wonderful Master (smiles)  walking away is a safety net for a lot, but staying and doing what is natural is far more rewarding :) :)

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RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 2:25:07 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Too bad, I had some questions to ask you  If you wish to elaborate, you mentioned one of the factors being "dismissal."  I suppose what I'm really asking is what would get you "dismissed?"  What behavior or lack of?  Just curious.  Thanks..........luci


Brain damage. Himself would have to suffer some sort of cataclysmic injury to ever desire to dismiss me.  Maybe he'll just get tired of M/s? Maybe he'll decide that he doesn't want to be served anymore or indulge his dominance with me in particular?

I don't engage in the sort of behavior which would get me dismissed because above all, I have to be true to my own nature and be the slave to him that I have been groomed to be. He has spent years bringing out my full potential in order to serve him as he desires. Now that the job is mostly done and in maintenance mode, it wouldn't make sense to let me go now that he's got me exactly where he wants me!

I guess I can't answer the question, luci. I'm sorry, but I just don't know. The only thing I do willfully is obey him and entertain him. If he doesn't like my sense of humor, maybe he'll throw some rotten tomaters at me and boot me out the door but it would be a shocker to me if he did so.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: I am only owned until........ - 8/18/2007 2:27:12 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
If I decide that I no long wish to be his slave, I am not going to be passive aggressive about it and disobey so I can be released.  If I no longer wish to be his slave, I would be rather direct and ask to be released

I guess I was thinking about a situation where a slave HAD asked and been refused release.  If willful disobedience was cause for dismissal and a slave's request had already been denied, then would the slave feel that acting out would get them released?
quote:

In the last two plus years, there have only been two times that I have come close to being willfully disobedient and in both of them my fear was controlling me and it had nothing to do with not wanting to be his slave.  All he had to do was warn me that I was getting close to disobeying him and it shut me down.  The fears I was dealing with were nothing compared to the fear of no longer being in this relationship

I can certainly understand that.
quote:

The way that we define an M/s relationship makes it impossible for that relationship to exist if the slave does not obey.  I am his slave because I have consented to transfer all authority to him.  He is Master because he has chosen to accept having the authority in my life.  If either of those conditions cease to exist we would no longer have an M/s relationship as we define it.  To willfully disobey is to take back authority within my life.  When I do that I have also removed my consent to be his slave.  Those are the consequences of refusing to do his will

Now see?  That's what I was trying to explain about how your relationship works.  As you said, I got close.  I totally understand and agree that it must work really well.  It makes perfect sense when you explain it.
quote:

Another thing that might end the relationship is if it becomes harmful for any of us to be in a relationship together.  We will not stay in a relationship that is harmful to our well-being

Again, that makes perfect sense.  Thanks for clarifying and contributing to the thread.  I appreciate it............luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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