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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 4:04:08 AM

camille65

Posts: 5746
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From: Austin Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Meatclever....... Comparing what happens in India to western values is irrelevant. There is a mile of difference between legal abortions, which i dont agree with except for an extreme medical reason, and the murder of babies.

The following link is very upsetting so be warned, but it does show what i mean.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2001/06/24/stories/04242233.htm

Edits to add..... i mean irrelevant comparing what actually takes place. Not the reasons why, financial ect.

There is a link at the bottom of that first page, continuing on about males being 'eradicated' as well.

To me it is how the females are valued within a society. Like several have said here, if the female gender is not valued then this practice we see as horrendous will continue as commonplace in those areas. Why would they consider something to be of value when their society holds it as something of little value or worse, something of extreme financial burden?

Many rural areas in China have come to the point of marrying within the first cousin range due to the lack of viable adult females.
*************************************************************************************************
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ch.html

Infant mortality rate:

total: 22.12 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 20.01 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 24.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2007 est.)
**************************************************************************************************
Again, in China most Westerners are a bit behind the times when it comes to understanding their 'one child per household'.
That simply is not true. Chinese can have more than one child. If the first is a girl then they can try again (oy @ trying again for the right sex), they can also pay a government fee to have more children.

Actually that is something I would like to see here, a demonstration of fincancial ability when it comes to having a multitude of children. Of course that won't ever happen here but IMO too many have them without having the resources to raise them.
I can't help but wonder how much of our money going to welfare and other programs would be saved if a prospective parent had to purchase the right to have child #5.......

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Post #: 121

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 4:05:48 AM

SusanofO

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So if I am getting this right, meatcleaver, what you are saying is: As long as your own country has any type of crime at all - it's just okay whatever happens anywhere else on the planet, no matter how deplorable it is.

Your theory is, more and more, with every one of your posts, is starting to sound (to me) something like this:

If your country has so much as a single shop-lifter, for example - then any other country can murder all of its citizens at random, for instance, and your country can just shut up about it altogether - because, well: Hey -we all have our "cultural differences".

I just don't know what to say to that. I am completely stumped. American values are not the topic, either. The topic is eradication of females. Apparently, you either:

1) Refuse to believe it is happening

2) Don't care it's happening

3) Think if a practice is long-held or a part of a culture, then it's just fine - no mater what it actually entails.

4) Think if anyone in another country has ever had a criminal in ther own country they have no "room to talk"

None of these poisitons make loads of sense to me. But its your head and your life, and we are all entitled to our own opinion.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/21/2007 4:19:12 AM >

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Post #: 122

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 4:13:55 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

So if I am getting this right, meatcleaver: What you are saying is: As long as your own country has any type of crime at all - it's just okay whatever happens anywhere else on the planet, no matter how deplorable it is.

Your theory is more and more, with every one of our posts, is starting to sound (to me) something like this:If your country has so much as a single shop-lifter, for example - then any other country can murder all of its citizens at random, for instance, and your country can just shut up about it altogether - because Hey -we all have our "cultural differences".

- Susan

No I'm not saying that but you may insist on putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is that what you are complaining about is illegal in the those countries and efforts are being made to eradicate such practices as infanticide. However, it is an ingrained cultural practice in some areas and India and China are still poor and backward countries in many of their regions and those practices are going to take some to irradicate. To make an accusation against a whole culture which is what has been happening is the pot calling the kettle black because western values don't stand up to scrutiny either.

As for aborting female fetus', Asian women are merely practicing the right most western women have...the right to choose.

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Post #: 123

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 4:17:16 AM

meatcleaver

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Actually the problem I have is rich comfortable westerners telling dirt poor people that they are barbaric when the life style of those westerners exacerbate the poverty of those very same people.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/21/2007 4:18:12 AM >

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Post #: 124

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 4:25:22 AM

SusanofO

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meatcleaver: Well. Just how much money did you, yourself, donate to charity last year? Please don't tell me you "couldn't afford it" I donated quite a bit (and I maybe couldn't afford it, either - depending on your perspective. Like 10% of my income). Not that it's actually any of your business. But I don't consider myself a lazy, uncaring, over-privileged "westerner" (whatever that is). To: Amnesty International, and three International Children's funds- partly, to help stop practices just like these. I have also done volunteer work with Somolian refugees in my home town. It's not like I don't care.

I already said there isn't that much of an effort being made to stop some of these practices. Sure there is some effort being made. But the police and judges take bribes all the time, too. Not just a little - a Lot.

I just don't want to argue about my right to even have an opinion about this anymore. You have succeeded in completely and totally wearing me out (and that's pretty difficult to do, too).

camille65: Thank you for the site reference on China, it was very informative.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/21/2007 5:07:25 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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Post #: 125

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 4:32:06 AM

Politesub53

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Meatclever how are the west responsible for Indias poverty. There is constant investment from Western firms without which India would be even poorer. They already have the foruth largest economy in the world and are on the point of overtaking Japan.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 126

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 4:33:54 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Meatclever how are the west responsible for Indias poverty. There is constant investment from Western firms without which India would be even poorer. They already have the foruth largest economy in the world and are on the point of overtaking Japan.

Er. Politesub. Did you miss the British Empire?

What has Japan got to do with what we are discussing?

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Post #: 127

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 4:37:00 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

meatcleaver: Well. Just how much money did you, yourself, donate to charity last year? Please don't tell me you "couldn't afford it" I donated quite a bit (and I maybe couldn't afford it, either - depending on your perspective. Like 10% of my income. Not that it's actually any of your business. But I don't consider myself a lazy, uncaring, over-privileged "westerner" (whatever that is). To: Amnesty International and three International Children's funds- partly, to help stop practices just like these. It's not like I don't care.

I already said there isn't that much of an effort being made to stop some of these practices. Sure there is some effort being made. But the police and judges take bribes all the time, too. Not just a little - a Lot.

I just don't want to argue about my right to even have an opinion about this anynore. You have succeeded in completely and totally wearing me out (and that's pretty difficult to do, too).

- Susan

I give too much because I am sure most of it goes to touchy feely western do-gooders rather than to the people that really need it but dharity is an elastoplast, what is really needed is western economies opening up their borders to third world trade. Now that would help far more but it won't happen because that really would mean the west putting its money where its mouth is.

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Post #: 128

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 4:40:32 AM

SusanofO

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meatcleaver: I do believe that Politesub53 was making the point that many"westerners" have invested a lot of money in India, and it has boosted their economy quite a bit. So how is it that makes us all "hypocritical, unfeeling westerners"? simply because we disagree witht things like female infanticide, or dowries, etc.? We are simply commenting - which we have a right to do - not trying to take over the country.

Also - how is it that some other countries can feel "westerners" are just greedy selfish morons - but that we cannot have an opinion about them or else we're just being"rude"? Ever ask yourself that question?

As for your reasoning for not donating much money to charity - I actually consider it none of my business. Although I will say this - I class you with the same type of people who refuse to vote - and then proceed to bitch to high heaven about how awful their government is. You want good results - you just don't want to have to do much work it would take to effect any significant changes. Well, I've said enough - and probably too much. I should give myself a rest.

I still think it's been a great thread, with so many interesting contributions - it was well worth reading. I'll be back later.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/21/2007 4:50:34 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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Post #: 129

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:00:03 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Yeah, yeah, the evil Men are to blame. Things are done based on a value system, if you do not like the value system, then move somewhere else. There is going to be a problem with every value system, from someone's perspective.

Maybe we should invade India and end the suffering, wait I think Darfur is next on the list to invade.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! A comic!

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Post #: 130

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:00:27 AM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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camille65: I especially thought the portion in your site reference on China under Transnational Issues: Trafficking in Persons (page 2) was especially enlightening. It just gave me more countries to add to the list of those who are helping to "eradicate females" (at least their rights as human beings): Burma, Mongolia and Japan. And let's not forget as well - Bosnia and Romania (which also do plenty of "trafficking in persons - especially female child persons).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/21/2007 6:03:53 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 131

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:09:24 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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Japan is somewhere I know about because my youngest daughter is Japanese and her mother is independent and has her own business.

Sex trafficking goes on all over the world and dare I say, I bet in the USA too. Women lured as dancers to rich nations in hope of earning a decent living but finding themselves imprisoned by criminals in the sex industry. There is nothing in Japan that is not in most western countries.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 132

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:11:38 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The only guaranteed solution is to make all abortions illegal because you can't stop Asian women having the right to choose if all other women have the right to choose.

That you believe this is about 'Asian women having the right to choose' speaks to me of how skewed your judgement is. It isn't about women choosing. And it isn't about a western bitch (me) judging a foreign culture: I am a foreigner everywhere, because I am a woman, and people never fail to remind me of it.

I addressed a problem, something immensely troubling to me personally because 1. I am a woman and 2. I know many men and women, and government officials in India who are against the practice of selective sex abortion. Actually, 3. it is against the law.

You also seem to forget that class interferes with this: the people who are choosing to abort femal fetuses tend to belong to the middle and upper class. Women with university degree do it. It isn't a pure matter of economics, meacleaver.

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Post #: 133

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:15:11 AM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
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meatcleaver: Where is this taking place in the U.S., right now, and under the eye of police - or on this level?
Well, I guess that's the end of the thread then, the word is out - the U.S, has crime too. What a rude awakening!
We can all just go do something else now.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/21/2007 7:10:10 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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Post #: 134

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:16:16 AM

domiguy

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Surely they are not eradicating the hot?....Are they?....Cuz, I'm just saying, that might rub someone the wrong way.

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Post #: 135

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:16:52 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I addressed a problem, something immensely troubling to me personally because 1. I am a woman and 2. I know many men and women, and government officials in India who are against the practice of selective sex abortion. Actually, 3. it is against the law.

You also seem to forget that class interferes with this: the people who are choosing to abort femal fetuses tend to belong to the middle and upper class. Women with university degree do it. It isn't a pure matter of economics, meacleaver.

I know selective abortion is illegal in India, as it is in Britain but unless you can reas a woman's mind who is to tell she wants an abortion because dhe is carrying a female fetus or because she simply finds a child too inconvenient for her career?

Poor women couldn't afford the medical treatment for a private abortion but as I pointed out, educated professional western women abort for social and cultural reasons such as a the prospect of a child interfering with her career or social life.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 136

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:18:13 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Surely they are not eradicating the hot?....Are they?....Cuz, I'm just saying, that might rub someone the wrong way.

It is supposed to be emotive to intimidate people who disagree.

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Post #: 137

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:20:15 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

meatcleaver: Where is this taking place in the U.S., right now, and under the eye of police - or on this level?
Well, I guess that's the end of the thread then, the word is out - the U.S, has crime too. What a rude awakening!
We can all just go do something else now.

- Susan

Where is it taking place in Japan under the eye of the police. You are simply showing an inate racism.

I'm being emotive om purpose there to put a point across.

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Post #: 138

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:20:41 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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????????????????????????????????

Was that paranoia?

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Post #: 139

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:21:24 AM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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meatcleaver: You seem to have some infantile expectation that everyone in the world is going to somehow have, or be born with the same amount of wealth, or advantages. Sorry to break it to you, but this isn't going to happen - maybe ever. The best anyone can do is try to help people who might need some help. I am not apologizing, simply for being born in the U.S. As fas as I know, that's not a crime. And as far as I know, I had no choice in the matter.

I wasn't referring to Japan; I was referring to Thailand, India, and Vietnam (but isn't even one country more than enough? We are talking about child sex traffikking.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/21/2007 6:24:33 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 140

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