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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:23:02 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		You are most welcome Susan, I am glad someone read that link... I found it interesting as well.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:23:22 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

????????????????????????????????

Was that paranoia?


???? No, I was pointing out there is little objective difference in our culture and theirs, it is just depends which prism you want to see the world through.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:25:33 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

meatcleaver: You seem to have some infantile expectation that everyone in the world is going to somehow have, or be born with the same amount of wealth, or advantages. Sorry to break it to you, but this isn't going to happen - maybe ever. The best anyone can do is try to help people who might need some help. I am not apologizing, simply for being born in the U.S. As fas as I know, that's not a crime. And as far as I know, I had no choice in the matter.

- Susan


No I am not but I am against people imposing their values on others. The west has done it for centuries and fucked up the world. The latest bout of liberal imperialism is no better than the old christian one of civilizing the savages.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:27:47 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:



I know selective abortion is illegal in India, as it is in Britain but unless you can reas a woman's mind who is to tell she wants an abortion because dhe is carrying a female fetus or because she simply finds a child too inconvenient for her career?



Wrong: women are only able to make that decision because of the echography technology that enables the technician to find out the gender of the fetus they're carrying.

It's actually ILLEGAL in India for doctors to reveal the gender to the parents. But a great business has grown out of Siemens' technology and portable echographs are doing the rounds in the trunks of doctors' cars.

Illegal 'clinics' flourish, clinics which specialise in the termination of females. Tell me once more I have to sit back in my western contentment that "this is another culture, what do I know, I cannot judge" and I might scream .

If it were a mere cultural quirk, I very much doubt the Indian government would have started such a large scale campaign to erradicate the practice of sex-selective abortions. Please, read up on it.



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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:27:52 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I think it's a first, Meatcleaver and I being on the same side of an issue, twice in the same month.
 
The difficulties outlined by the original post, are clearly bad. That isn't in question. As the post progressed, we discussed abortion, as it relates to this issue, the sex trade, etc ... The thing I find funny, is that most of the time, people desire to insist that these things are not related.
 

Reading past Meatcleaver's individual points, you will find at it's core, that Westerners love to talk about other people's problems, almost as much as they love to ignore their own. A great example is the lot of runnaway children in the United States. I've brought this up on this board several times. It's a dead bang thread stopper. Bring it up in a discussion of politics among friends or classmates ... it's actually a perfect way to get some people to shut up ... and if you use a real life example ... well, you can hear a pin drop.
 
These things are all related. They are fruit from the same poison tree.
 
A woman I respect and abide above all others, a very educated women with as deep a mind as I've run across, once told me in a heart-to-heart conversation, that the only answer to all these problems, is the most simple answer of all. Adults must learn to love children, and realize they have a responsibility to care for them.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 8/21/2007 6:29:16 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:27:53 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		meatcleaver: There is a hell of a lot of difference, pal. I guess we haven't been reading the same thread. You have got to be blind - or think this stuff is okay. But I have reached the conclusion that debating with you is an exercise in futility.

caitlyn: I'll discuss run-away children. BUT -I already stated (in my very first post on this thread, in fact) that the U.S. has, for instance, some terrible foster care problems in this country. However, that wasn't the original topic. I was trying to stick to the topic.

In any case, there isn't much comparison (as I see it) in terms of the  severity of how the two issues compare: In terms of age of children affected, emotional or physical damage to the parties involved, and a lack of people who have the power and genuine interest, who are interested in solving the problem.

How can I tell? I can tell because people in this country at least recognize that runaway children are maybe a problem. How do I know that? There is a system in place to help look for them if they do run away. Their faces are on milk cartons. There is the Boystown national hotline - hell, there is a Boystown to begin with (and it accepts girls too, btw) The police can try to help. There are TV shows where their names and their stories get press. Much of this would likely not happen to the degree it does here (if at all) in: well- most of the countries we've discussed on this thread - especially not in Thailand or in Vietnam.

If you want to discuss child abuse - I could discuss that. But neither of these problems aren't problems other countries don't have. You think kids don't run away in some of these countries? Well, maybe they do. If their parents don't maybe sell them to a complete stranger for $20 first, that is.

When the topic of a thread is runaways or lousy foster care, or run-aways, or rampant drug use, I will be happy to discuss that. But I dont think it's a good tactic, to use it as a tool to simply deflect away the severity of the real topic that was posted.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/21/2007 6:55:28 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:30:10 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I'm swooning for you Caitlyn.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:30:52 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Adults must learn to love children, and realize they have a responsibility to care for them.



Nothing could ever be truer. That's why I cherish my one and only child.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:32:54 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

meatcleaver: There is a hell of a lot of difference, pal. I guess we haven't been reading the same thread. You have got to be blind - or think this stuff is okay. But I have reached the conclusion that debating with you is an exercise in futility.

- Susan


I have never said I think this stuff is OK or a lot of other stuff is OK. My point is that the west has already been around the world once civilizing the savages, convinced right was on its side and made a right mess of things. You would think that the west would now show a little humility and concentrate on its own problems. There are surely enough of them.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/21/2007 6:34:01 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:34:44 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Civilisations in the east have also imposed their will on others. The west are no better and no worse. The caste system was in India long before westerners went there.

Priests.
Rulers, warriors, landowners.
Merchants
Artisans
The untouchables... IE the poor.

Sounds familiar doesnt it. Yet not a westerner in sight. Worldwide its always been the same.


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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:39:48 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Civilisations in the east have also imposed their will on others. The west are no better and no worse. The caste system was in India long before westerners went there.

Priests.
Rulers, warriors, landowners.
Merchants
Artisans
The untouchables... IE the poor.

Sounds familiar doesnt it. Yet not a westerner in sight. Worldwide its always been the same.




The cast system was their system and not imposed by outsiders which is fine by me, it is their problem to solve, not ours.

I am trying to think of the last people to invade the west and impose their views. I can only think of the Arabs who were only temporarily successful but were dutifully slaughtered and run out of town in the end.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:45:17 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		meatcleaver: You seem to view any involvement or concern as meddling on the one hand  but yet curse the "rich uncaring westerners" with the other. So - we're damned if we care (we're looking down our noses at another culture if we bother to try and help by being charitable) and damned if we don't (we're lazy, spoiled, uncaring). Which is it? Gonna make up your mind?
I am done debating with you - there isn't any way to even make a point. it's impossible. I'm done.

You obviously don't appreciate the topic. I have yet to see you contribute one cogent thought (sans the abortion stuff, which I avoided, for my own reasons - I knew it would get nowhere) to progress (vs. destroy) the discussion on the original topic that was posted. So why are you posting?

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/21/2007 7:38:05 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:45:24 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Meatcleaver: I don't believe any culture is better than any other, and I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion that western civilisation, with its greed and appetite for conquest, has wreaked havoc on much of the world. And continues to do so.

Do you agree with me though that one of the common denominators of humanity is its capacity for harm and war, whether it's on another nation's territory or inside a woman's body?

That's what motivated me to post the thread in the first place. I am fully aware that women in the West are only just starting to reap the rewards of their struggle for liberation and freedom. When my (British) mother married my (French) father and went to live in France (bad choice!) with him in the late sixties, she was horrified to discover that she had to ask for his permission in order to open a bank account (though I'm sure the Gor bores would find that idea exhilarating ). French women had only won the right to vote a little over twenty years previously (1945)!

But I am not judging India: I hate patriarchy, which is pretty much a universal construct, with notable exceptions. Makes sense?


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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:49:08 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

meatcleaver: You seem to view any involvement or concern as meddling on the one hand  but yet curse the "rich uncaring westerners" with the other. So - we're damned if we care (we're looking down our noses at another culture if we bother to try and help by being charitable) and damned if we don't (we're lazy, spoiled, uncaring). Which is it? Gonna make up your mind?
I am done with you, meatcleaver. Done.

- DSusan


Free trade is not meddling, it is allowing countries to participate in the world economy for the betterment of themselves. The west deny many third world countries this ability and protect their own trade. Free and fair trade would help a lot of poor countries to become richer. The problem is that western corporations don't like it because it will effect their profits.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:49:48 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I think it's a first, Meatcleaver and I being on the same side of an issue, twice in the same month.
 
The difficulties outlined by the original post, are clearly bad. That isn't in question. As the post progressed, we discussed abortion, as it relates to this issue, the sex trade, etc ... The thing I find funny, is that most of the time, people desire to insist that these things are not related.
 

Reading past Meatcleaver's individual points, you will find at it's core, that Westerners love to talk about other people's problems, almost as much as they love to ignore their own. A great example is the lot of runnaway children in the United States. I've brought this up on this board several times. It's a dead bang thread stopper. Bring it up in a discussion of politics among friends or classmates ... it's actually a perfect way to get some people to shut up ... and if you use a real life example ... well, you can hear a pin drop.
 
These things are all related. They are fruit from the same poison tree.
 
A woman I respect and abide above all others, a very educated women with as deep a mind as I've run across, once told me in a heart-to-heart conversation, that the only answer to all these problems, is the most simple answer of all. Adults must learn to love children, and realize they have a responsibility to care for them.


Then perhaps you won't mind answering the question that MC has been tapdancing around. 
Why is the fruit of the Indian poison tree, specifically the whole dowry killing ball of wax, including faked kitchen fires and other murders to the tune of many thousands each year, given the status of a poker chip to be played in a game of jingoistic 'Your country does bad shit too!'?

Not only is this a classic tu quoque fallacy, it objectifies people on many levels.

How hard is it to grasp the notion that when it is bad to abort children for convenience, it is worse to abort them for misogyny, and even worse to kill them off wholesale when they are older in the name of a venal 'tradition'?


(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:52:43 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Meatcleaver: I don't believe any culture is better than any other, and I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion that western civilisation, with its greed and appetite for conquest, has wreaked havoc on much of the world. And continues to do so.

Do you agree with me though that one of the common denominators of humanity is its capacity for harm and war, whether it's on another nation's territory or inside a woman's body?

That's what motivated me to post the thread in the first place. I am fully aware that women in the West are only just starting to reap the rewards of their struggle for liberation and freedom. When my (British) mother married my (French) father and went to live in France (bad choice!) with him in the late sixties, she was horrified to discover that she had to ask for his permission in order to open a bank account (though I'm sure the Gor bores would find that idea exhilarating ). French women had only won the right to vote a little over twenty years previously (1945)!

But I am not judging India: I hate patriarchy, which is pretty much a universal construct, with notable exceptions. Makes sense?



I think the custom is India of prefering males and resorting to abortion or worse, infanticide as wrong headed but Indians are the only ones that can find a solution because it is their problem.

You discuss voting for females in the west which only supports my point, we in the west can't point our finger at other cultures, should they hold up a mirror.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/21/2007 6:54:16 AM >

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:57:10 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
When the topic of a thread is runaways or lousy foster care, or run-aways, or rampant drug use, I will be happy to discuss that. But I dont think it's a good tactic, to use it as a tool to simply deflect away the severity of the real topic that was posted.


They are only deflecting to those that think these things aren't related. To others, the biggest reason we have these problems, is people that wish to deny the existance of a relationship between them all.
 
In short ... you think I'm deflecting for bringing these topics in ... just about as much as I think you are deflecting for attempting to exclude them.
 
We will have to agree to not agree on this one.

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I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 6:58:31 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		But meatcleaver: I am not discussing free trade (maybe you are, but I'm not). I am discussing eradicating females as a part of a country's culture (or many countries' cultures).

caitlyn: Well then - Include a discussion of runaways in the U.S. - and please tell how the severity compares - and also how the lack of interest in runaways in the U.S. on the part of our culture, compares to the level of severity of what has already been discussed. I'm very interested. I really am. I aslo think you might want to take a second look at Alumbrado's comment on your post.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/21/2007 7:16:35 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:07:22 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Many countries place more value on the male gender over the female...China probably has more dead little girls buried beneath their soil than any other place in the world....It's a shame...Some of these women, if allowed the chance to flourish, might have found their way to the states and the Domiguy....Other than that, it is fine to say, "Oh my gosh, that is awful." While you eat your english muffin and sip your morning coffee.

It's a shame....Nothing to see here...Move along...



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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:08:00 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Rhetorics, rhetorics... nothing wrong with being torn by a contradiction or two.

ORIGINAL Alumbrado

quote:



How hard is it to grasp the notion that when it is bad to abort children for convenience, it is worse to abort them for misogyny, and even worse to kill them off wholesale when they are older in the name of a venal 'tradition'?



Caitlyn's vociferously anti-choice, so I'm not surprised to see her here: it completely corroborates her usual stance on the abortion question, but she's dodging the question. This is, truly, about misogyny.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 8/21/2007 7:11:58 AM >

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