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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:10:11 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
How hard is it to grasp the notion that when it is bad to abort children for convenience, it is worse to abort them for misogyny, and even worse to kill them off wholesale when they are older in the name of a venal 'tradition'?

No offense intended, but my experience with you, is that you tend to assign some greater understanding to your side of a debate, and a lesser understanding to the other side.

I grasp just fine thank you ... I just don't agree. I see all these things as equally bad, and completely related to each other. To discuss one, and exclude the other, makes no sense to me. I don't see Meatcleaver engaging in your 'poker chip' analogy. I see him trying to link things that some of us see that way.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 161

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:18:23 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I asked Sinergy to explain why such a culture developed, not that it didn't exist. Why did it develop there and not in related cultures.

I answered this question to some extent. It predates historical time to the dawn of mankind and relates to the 9 months to 2 years where a woman is basically helpless to care for a man's children, as well as the male need to ensure that his own bloodline is carried on.

It is covered in great detail in "Why is Sex Fun" and "The Third Chimpanzee" by Jared Diamond, among other works by people such as Marx, etc.

quote:

As for Sinergy not wanting to discuss abortion, I can guess why not, it is because the issue was not about abortion but the freedom to choose and the western hypocrisy it exposes.

You guessed incorrectly.

Abortion is a complex and emotionally charged issue which almost invariably results in a screaming fight between people. I have already discussed my own personal opinions on it in other threads, and I was commenting here on a thread which discusses the eradication of women. Abortion is ancillary to that topic. I suppose a similar example would be arguing over what particular method is used to kill a prisoner on a thread about the morality of the death penalty.

I was simply comenting on a societal issue which impacts the human species in China and India, to a lesser extent in Australia and Canada. I suspect the drop in birth rate will eventually impact the rest of society as the sperm counts drop planet-wide from environmental toxins and people stop having children for various reasons.

I am neutral about the emotional aspects of the situation. It is possible to describe a burning house without being emotionally charged about how evil fire is, feeling like God is punishing me for burning the house, or blaming a massive conspiracy for wiring the burning house with explosives.

quote:

Such as it is fine for a western woman to have an abortion because it would interfer in her night clubbing or the shame of being an unmarried woman in a redneck christian fundementalist region but it is not alright for a woman to choose in India because of her social and cultural pressures. Only a fraction of abortions in the west are for medical reasons but we wouldn't take any truck from another culture telling us how abhorent and how trivial they find western reasons for abortions. The people who know what is best for Indians are Indians.

Interesting opinion. It is, however, just that, an opinion. It reminds me of the right-wing cutting of funding of a program which studied the sex-lives of long distance truckers. The study intended to track the spread of HIV by studying a sub-culture, yet was shot down by right wingers as being "valueless" research.

I personally think it is important to do an epidemiological study of HIV in order to figure out how best to approach stopping it, but too many people have their knickers in a knot because the disease is on the list of sexually transmitted diseases. Therefore, we must all cover our eyes and pretend it will go away, apparently.

quote:

Most sex industries in far eastern countries are down to poverty and the destruction by the west by many indigenous cultures and economies and the west restricting the trade of these countries. Yet more reason why the west should keeps its nose out of other people's affairs.

I would love to see your sources on this.

Prostitution is the oldest profession because those who work in it, regardless of culture or society, possess a product the market desires. This has nothing to do with west or east. It has to do with poverty and need.

quote:

The arrogance of the west blows my mind. We imported a proselytizing culture and we've been proselytizing ever since.

One of the most arrogant things that many in the West do is assume that they imported something to other societies which already existed there before the west showed up. You dont think it is possible that women and men since the dawn of mankind spread their legs to barter for what they needed to survive? Or did this practice only come about with the rise of Western Culture circa the 15th Century?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 162

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:18:47 AM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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That is fine. I just put my opinion out there, if someone is persuaded by it, that is their own internal choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

No, I haven't. We obviously have different points of view. Fine with me. However, please have the good will to realize that I don't feel the same way, and not try to change my mind unless you have a pretty good argument for it. What you put forth is not a good argument for me to change my mind, IMO. I am afraid I am not very easily persuaded in this particular matter.

- Susan

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 163

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:22:29 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
How hard is it to grasp the notion that when it is bad to abort children for convenience, it is worse to abort them for misogyny, and even worse to kill them off wholesale when they are older in the name of a venal 'tradition'?

No offense intended, but my experience with you, is that you tend to assign some greater understanding to your side of a debate, and a lesser understanding to the other side.

I grasp just fine thank you ... I just don't agree. I see all these things as equally bad, and completely related to each other. To discuss one, and exclude the other, makes no sense to me. I don't see Meatcleaver engaging in your 'poker chip' analogy. I see him trying to link things that some of us see that way.

Nobody is requiring you to agree...OTOH, I didn't invent the definition of a tu quoque fallacy.
Feel free to indulge in it or any others, as often as you wish, and I will feel free to point them out as I wish.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 164

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:22:31 AM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
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Wow. Nice post, Sinergy.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 165

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:23:26 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Hot.

_____________________________

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Post #: 166

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:24:29 AM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Civilisations in the east have also imposed their will on others. The west are no better and no worse. The caste system was in India long before westerners went there.

Priests.
Rulers, warriors, landowners.
Merchants
Artisans
The untouchables... IE the poor.

Sounds familiar doesnt it. Yet not a westerner in sight. Worldwide its always been the same.

The cast system was their system and not imposed by outsiders which is fine by me, it is their problem to solve, not ours.

I am trying to think of the last people to invade the west and impose their views. I can only think of the Arabs who were only temporarily successful but were dutifully slaughtered and run out of town in the end.

Read my top line. All i said was that eastern Empires conquered others.
Since you ask, the Mongols had the largest single continuous land empire ever, stretching right through eastern Europe to the edges of western Europe. Hungary and Poland ect and down into modern day Iraq and parts of India.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 167

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:24:29 AM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Rhetorics, rhetorics... nothing wrong with being torn by a contradiction or two.

ORIGINAL Alumbrado

quote:

How hard is it to grasp the notion that when it is bad to abort children for convenience, it is worse to abort them for misogyny, and even worse to kill them off wholesale when they are older in the name of a venal 'tradition'?

Caitlyn's vociferously anti-choice, so I'm not surprised to see her here: it completely corroborates her usual stance on the abortion question, but she's dodging the question. This is, truly, about misogyny.

Misogyny????....Hmmmmm seems a strange place for this topic...Where there are posts the Doms, the majority of them male, routinely engage their subs (female) in any thinkable activity....

It's not that I don't care...It's just that it is India's problem....I could worry over the plight of the women of India until I lose sleep and have lost all appetite....I will end up a skinny, tired corpse....The situation in India would remain the same unknowing of my spectacular sacrifice....It's fine to be aware of a situation that exists....You either do something about it, or just acknowledge it that it is happening but is a problem well beyond your scope of influence....Sort of the serenity prayer approach.

Now on the other hand I have this fucking neighbor....

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Post #: 168

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:26:42 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

You dont think it is possible that women and men since the dawn of mankind spread their legs to barter for what they needed to survive? Or did this practice only come about with the rise of Western Culture circa the 15th Century?

Likewise for numerous atrocities which occured, not because people are Western, or Indian, or American, but because they are humans.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 8/21/2007 7:27:01 AM >

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 169

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:28:54 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

domiguy:
Now on the other hand I have this fucking neighbor....

If the neighbor is a female, you know what to do and why to do it.

Ganesh

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 170

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:32:18 AM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

Politesub53: Is right. Eastern cultures have been conquerors and were around long before the U.S. even existed. The idea that "westerners" are the only culture to ever consider themsleves as conquerors is absurd. I think Alumbrado made this point as well (but I just now saw it).

domiguy: I agree, but I do try to help (with money). I suppose anyone who isn't a slight hypocrite might do something like actually join the Peace Corps, though. Let's sign meatcleaver up for that. hehe.

I think many of the people here would actually like to help. These posts and threads can be good to help raise awreness of these kinds of issues. I admit some of us might get emotionally caught up in them - but it's pretty icky stuff that is being reported as happening, too.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/21/2007 7:36:00 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 171

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:34:43 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

I don't agree with this "each to their own" philosophy (very american, this individualism). We're all sharing the same globe and what one does affects the other.

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Post #: 172

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:39:15 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

We're all sharing the same globe and what one does affects the other.

Waiting for domiguy to make a pun on that one

.

_____________________________

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 173

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:49:11 AM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

We're all sharing the same globe and what one does affects the other.

Waiting for domiguy to make a pun on that one .

You do have rather spectacular teets. I am convinced where one goes the other does tend to follow....But anywhoooo...It has nothing to do with being a hypocrite....You can sit here and debate all day about the tossing away of Indian gash.....It just seems like such a waste. There, I have done all I can and am willing to do.

quote:

If the neighbor is a female, you know what to do and why to do it.

Ganesh

She is....It's just that there are no wells deep enough to hide my solution. Any ideas?

_____________________________

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 174

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:50:07 AM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

There is a link at the bottom of that first page, continuing on about males being 'eradicated' as well.

To me it is how the females are valued within a society. Like several have said here, if the female gender is not valued then this practice we see as horrendous will continue as commonplace in those areas. Why would they consider something to be of value when their society holds it as something of little value or worse, something of extreme financial burden?

This is such a valid point it bears repeating. If males are making the decision, they are doing so based on a value system. A value system has two sides, the item that is being judged for value, can undergo changes so that the perception of the person assigning value may change. External influence may play a part in this, and that may be able to be corrected on either side as well.

One of my points, is that we have to draw a line on where we are going to exert our moral outrage, and try to influence those around us. At present I see the line at the border of our nation. There are many problems here at home (the US) that need to be tackled, and can produce as much moral outrage.

Providing links to give more information is great, but to "open eyes" is fucked up. Just because someone can look at a situation, and come to a different conclusion, does not mean their eyes are closed. To insinuate such, is just insulting, and narrow minded. Virtue is different among people, cultures, families, etc. Morals are created based on virtues, and ethics are created based on morals. When a culture says that our morals mean more than yours, and meddle, then be prepared to eventually have conflict.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 175

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:54:03 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

She is....It's just that there are no wells deep enough to hide my solution. Any ideas?

Tissue paper for your essence (or solution).

_____________________________

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Post #: 176

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 7:58:15 AM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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Actually I make my charitable donations based on economy: I figure a kid in Ethiopia, who might not ever get to go to school, period - without it, deserves my dollars more than a kid in the U.S., who is gonna get some of my tax money anyway to get a free public education. It's not that I don't think kids in the U.S. have problems - it's just that I think some kids in other parts of the work have much more fundamental problems. Like an ability to get vaccines that we take for granted. Or not be sold as a sex slave at age five. Some of these problems do exist here - but not to the vast, encompassing degree they do in some other parts of the world. Guess I am not much of a patriot, that way.

Besides - according to people like meatcleaver (and possibly caitlyn, although I am not convinced caitlyn actually means it)- my donating money to help an already advantaged (relatively speaking) U.S. child is only gonna (ultimatley) help proliferate the existence of more over-privileged "westerners" (actually, I am just kidding about that last part). And isn't that a good thing? (just kidding) I actually don't think our points of view are as far apart as they might seem.

But anyway - that is the way I think. I'll donate my time, but not much of my money - and there is a limited supply of it - to some U.S. child welfare problems for this very reason. Some people think that's just _ucked up. Oh well. As far as the governments and enduring cultures of these countries we've been discussing - well, I realize it's gonna be awhile, and maybe never happen at all, to see some of that change for the better. But right now - they still need practical and economic help. I don't really care all that much what the reasons are for their suffering (I mean I do, but not as much as I just want to help it stop). If money can help, that's one good use I think to which it can be put.

As for meatcleaver's assertion that it never gets where it is supposed to go - hell, anyone can look up which agencies spend what on administrative costs vs. actual field work, if that's a concern (and it should be a concern). I'd fault the U.S. government on their abysmal record helping child victims of hurricane Katrina, before I'd point a finger at an international charity like World Vision, or the Red Cross, for example. The admin costs of World Vision hover at 15-27% - which is phenomenally good.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/21/2007 8:38:16 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 177

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 8:02:51 AM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Eradicate competition, and conflict among the various cultures and such of mankind, and the planet will become peaceful. It will eventually become as peaceful as a graveyard. Striving against one another, competition, etc. keeps our natural urges going. You can look at everyone the same if you wish, but they are not the same. These differences is what provides value from an external perception. Frankly I do not want globalization of the economy, the people or virtues. We divide ourselves for a reason, and that reason is very natural.

It is also, not to each their own, it is to each their own consequences of their actions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I don't agree with this "each to their own" philosophy (very american, this individualism). We're all sharing the same globe and what one does affects the other.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 178

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 8:08:56 AM

OrionTheWolf

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Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

As is your right to do as you please. My money will stay in the US. I am not looking to lower the bar of excellence in my area of influence, and raise the bar in another area, just so that we can all be equally average, or the same. It is perfectly within anyone's right to do so, but I will continue working here on such problems. Who knows, maybe the people in those third world countries are meant to suffer? Maybe they are meant to make what we see as mistakes. Maybe all of it combined will be what causes them to change. I do not see these problems as global issues, that every inhabitant of the planet need involve themselves in, but I do recognize someone's right to do as they please, as long as it doesn't infringe on my rights. My recognition of that will also include my opinion though, as I believe everyone should offer theirs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Actually I make my charitable donations based on economy: I figure a kid in Ethiopia, who might not ever get to go to school, period - without it, deserves my dollars more than a kid in the U.S., who is gonna get some of my tax money anyway to get a free public education. It's not that I don't think kids in the U.S. have problems - it's just that I think some kids in other parts of the work have much more fundamental problems. Like an ability to get vaccines that we take for granted.Or not be sold as a sex slave at age five. Some of these problems do exist here - but not to the vast, encompassing degree they do in some other parts of the world. Guess I am not much of a patriot, that way.

Besides - according to people like meatcleaver (and possibly caitlyn, although I am not convinced caitlyn actually means it)- my donating money to help an already advantaged (relatively speaking) U.S. child is only gonna (ultimatley) help proliferate the existence of more over-privileged "westerners" (actually, I am just kidding about that last part).

But anyway - that is the way I think. I'll donate my time, but not much of my money - and there is a limited supply of it - to some U.S. child welfare problems for this very reason. Some people think that's just _ucked up. Oh well.

- Susan

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 179

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/21/2007 8:09:56 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

I do not donate much money to organizations, as the amount which actually makes it to the ones being cared for is something obnoxious like 3%. I will not donate to any organization which has paid lobbyists or media commercials.

On the other hand, I get paid very little for what I do as a mock assailant. The job is difficult, takes an enormous amount of my life energy doing it, can be emotionally taxing, spiritually both uplifting and draining, and physically tiring. There are times in my life when I think I would be much happier if I had never put on my armor.

I would do it for free. It needs to be done. It is something very few people can do.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 180

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