RE: Define Slave (Full Version)

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onceburned -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 10:34:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
she was sincerely trying to discuss and analye an M/s issue to help herself understand her own psycho-sexuality.


Wow, I am not sure where you got that idea. [:-]

I think Gloria and Angel are actually in agreement.



lonewolf05 -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 11:37:54 AM)

quote:

These involve things which must be earned on both sides.


Gemeni?

ok. i'll bite. what is it a Domme is SUPPOSED to EARN? this is one "I" never heard of.

thank you.
the wolf



hullman -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 11:43:13 AM)

as a master who has had a slave who willingly signed her care and control over to her master, but only after she felt safe and secure in so doing. where slaves as we call them from other parts are taken without there permission and used and abused for the gang leaders



sub4hire -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 12:17:01 PM)

quote:

since you name yourself for-hire why does it matter? aren't YOU just after the $$$$?


Again I will ssay because I'd like to evolve and learn what people think a slave is today. I know what it was back before the internet.

As far as the "for hire" goes....you are clueless. Since you've asked I will tell you.
I run a BDSM group for the last 5 year's. Monthly munches, discussion groups and quarterly parties. People from all over California who personally know me send me newbies. Everyone knows I'm all about education.
I will go after anyone who abuses one of my newbies. Literally go after them. My dom and I do not generally play with other's, however he will give me permission in a heartbeat to play with an abuser. He know's me well enough.
So yes, I am sudo for hire for newbies who have been stalked...or abused in any way.
Those so called doms never knew what was coming.

Never made a dime off of it yet though. You must be submissive to "hire" me.



ElektraUkM -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 12:24:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

It's all very well having wonderful discussions about the relevancy of using the word slave in BDSM, but the reality is that slavery exists. You can argue until your blue in the face that slavery is relevant in BDSM. You can discuss the history of slaves all you want. The fact is that, today, slavery is illegal and non consensual act of owning property.


I thought the object of the thread was to discuss the definitions of slavery in a BDSM context.

I'm sure we're all aware of slavery in the modern World. I don't see why the conditions of illegally held slaves in the present day should have any greater relevance to the discussion than the conditions of slaves in the past. These are all parallels, and examples of uses of the same word. They should not necessarily have any bearing on what a slave is held to be within the Lifestyle. imho.

~ Elektra



darkinshadows -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 12:35:32 PM)

quote:

What a deeply stupid and offensive post.

1) Spare us. Your moral posturing isn't morals - it's self-indulgence. "Little glass houses"?? You've got to be shitting me. Hey, here's a suggestion: get off the internet and actually do something instead of lecturing your betters.

2) You're dishonest. Words have different denotions, and deliberately misconstruing someone else's sincere attempt at dialogue to stroke yourself is contemptible. The OP has nothing, nothing to do with your fatuous, pompous nonsense post - she was sincerely trying to discuss and analye an M/s issue to help herself understand her own psycho-sexuality.


I think you need to chill, honestly...

If you care to actually READ the OP instead of self posturing with empty insults (yes - I too can use big words) Gloria actually asked for:-

quote:

So, I’m here asking for honest definitions to hopefully help myself evolve to today’s way of thinking. I’m not asking for flame wars. I know everyone will have different definitions. I’m hoping to hear many so I can have a well rounded definition myself


So, as you are so fond of numbers -

1. Gloria requested no flames - just opinions - you could at least respect her wish, no matter what you may think of my idea - and if you believe my post was a flame - you have to understand Faramir, I was responding to Gloria, not you - and I believe that Gloria has read enough and spoken to me enough to comprehend exactly what I meant - but I do accept that others may not.
But as stated, I was responding to Gloria.

2.She asked for peoples definitions. NOT - specifically BDSM/SM/Ds definitions. I was simply agreeing with her perception as I see it. Don't like it? Then disagree. But you do not have to strut your funky stuff and beat your chest to make a point. And so I really think you need to learn to read what a post says before jumping on a bandwagon thats going to nowhereville.

My post effects you so violently? I am not about to apologise for having an opinion that you simply don't agree with. It's a shame you feel it effects you in such a way - personally, I would prefere a much more centred discussion on the perceptions than waste valuble moments responding to some idiotic post from a man who obviously has (back to those numbers again)

1. No idea who or what I am - lucky you.

2. Has taken a disliking to some odd posts and decides how a person MUST be.

I have no need to defend my words, my lifestyle or my integrity to some pitiful little man who posts abusive words to different people, just because he doesn't happen to agree.

How very - domly - of you.

Peace and Love

Apologises to Gloria - didn't mean to take over the thread here - and I truely hope this hasn't taken the focus of your extremely interesting topic at hand.

Apologises to the Mods - I will quite understand if you feel the need to remove mine and Faramirs posts - but please - keep the thread running - it's really good.



lonewolf05 -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 12:44:48 PM)

i had that one coming.

i stand corrected.

i apologize.!

sigh and yet? i guess my inner strength is what keeps ME going. i have never, since i was 10 yrs old, had to have anyone come to my rescue.
i guess i am finding more n more being a street kid had it's advantages.

thanks
i am really sorry.

the wolf



sub4hire -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 12:53:37 PM)

quote:

i guess my inner strength is what keeps ME going. i have never, since i was 10 yrs old, had to have anyone come to my rescue.
i guess i am finding more n more being a street kid had it's advantages.


You do realize some do though? No?

We were up north one month. Had a couple of friends hosting our munch group. A woman comes there with an arab dude. All at the munch but one tell her not to leave the munch with him alone. Do not go anywhere private with him. Yet, she does.
Get's raped that evening. I'm not even back home yet when they are organizing a special sub group for me to meet this woman.
I dealt with the guy for about 2 weeks. To my knowledge nobody has seen him around anymore at all. He has totally retreated.
Anyway, essence of the story is. Newbies want to explore. They delve into things with their hormones not always looking at the facts and what can happen.
For those people, I'm there. Just as you may be there for someone sometime if you haven't already.

Apology accepted..also Angel...no need to apologize. I am learning a lot from these posts. What I think I need to do is somehow detach the word slave from the lifestyle as I know it. Re-attach it to mean what in my mind is sub. Don't know if that made sense or not...



softandshy -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 1:03:12 PM)

Hmmm. i feel as though i need to respond to both you, Gloria, and to Angel but it's going to take a bit to summarize my thoughts concisely. Yes, i can see where the "naming" of things leaves something to be desired. There are, as i have mentioned before, some integral differences between the two forms of slavery.

i do applaud you though, for being willing to stand up for those who may have trouble doing so themselves. i know that i am not prepared to confront my abusers, although i have warned those i believed vulnerable. It would take a great deal of guts, i think, to touch that sort in any way.



bottominwa -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 1:07:13 PM)

This is as always my favorite topic on collarme. i have at length discussed the term "slave" and its use in BDSM (good reads look under my archived posts)....my own personal opinion is it is a misnomer to what should really be referred to as a "servant/liege" of some sort. Granted there are those out there who "say" They are living in some sort of textbook definition M/s in a historical and Websterian reference to the term "slave" but everytime i have questioned into Their life it really isn't that at all...it's a servitude/loyalty type based TPE. Where the chains binding the "slave" are emotional and mental not physical.
And as this girl's own M says "What does one really want anyhow? Someone serving You out of fear and "ownership" (in the strictest sense of the word) or someone serving You out of loyalty and love. "
Here in this one house what most would refer to as "slave"...ie: no limits, do what is told in every aspect of life et all....is nothing akin to atleast the American historical perspective of slavery and much more akin to Japanese servitude and the like.

NOTE**** Before i get spammed by a zillion Goreans saying this is not Their definition of Gorean slavery...life is life people...literature is literature...and Y/your application of literature may be differnt then this House....We don't claim to have the end all be all creedence of knowledge of what is or isn't Gorean...and neither should Y/you.

sabrina King
kajira/alpha bicce

House of King



darkinshadows -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 1:07:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

It's all very well having wonderful discussions about the relevancy of using the word slave in BDSM, but the reality is that slavery exists. You can argue until your blue in the face that slavery is relevant in BDSM. You can discuss the history of slaves all you want. The fact is that, today, slavery is illegal and non consensual act of owning property.


I thought the object of the thread was to discuss the definitions of slavery in a BDSM context.

I'm sure we're all aware of slavery in the modern World. I don't see why the conditions of illegally held slaves in the present day should have any greater relevance to the discussion than the conditions of slaves in the past. These are all parallels, and examples of uses of the same word. They should not necessarily have any bearing on what a slave is held to be within the Lifestyle. imho.

~ Elektra


Hi Elektra

If it was - that isn't how I percieved the OP. I am positive Gloria will come back an say specifically what she meant, and if she wanted BDSM/SM/Ds definitions, then I will apologise to her - but she asked for ;

quote:

I know everyone will have different definitions. I’m hoping to hear many so I can have a well rounded definition myself

(geez Gloria - who knew you would get quoted so much?[;)])

Different definitions. That's what I gave.

Now, as you rightly mention, slaves of the past are no less of improtance than slaves of today. Yes, property was well prized in some cultures - the Romans for one - but it was still non consensual. Now, it can be argued that some slaves signed contracts. This is true - but usually under false pretenses(much like some today) - also, those that signed contracts often had no other choice/fear/forced and the genuine slaves who signed contracts were service based and maintained. Servants.

Of course, as with every part of a community, even some servants were abused - but that isn't what the post is about.

I have had discussions with mistoferin before about my thoughts on slavery. I can quite understand the desire for some people to be called a slave - thats their choice and freedom and I would never dream of pushing them to change their freedom to be. But I do question the usage of a word that means specific things. Now, Is it our duty and position as individuals to take a word - and change its definition to suit us and is this why and how word usage evolves (hey anthro - evolution thread! - would love to hear your thought on word evolution) - or should we respect those that have lived, bled and died under a specific label - and find an alternative word?

Peace and Love




bottominwa -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 1:16:14 PM)

i tend to agree with your sentiment angel...taking a word...and making it mean...something new...is a slippery slope for a plethra of reasons.
1) etymology is such that if one changes the meaning of a word one always runs the risk of losing the historical defition of the word all together....or cheapening it, etc. Slavery, is not something one wants to erase in anyway the historicla record of, or lessen because people find it "kiche" to use the term.
2) There has always been something baout using the word that i find disrespectful to the reality that, as earlier pointe dout, is still "slavery" in the world.
3) i personally can't comprehend what it is people find so romanticized about "slavery" anyhow. And time and time again when questioned people are truly referring to more of a liege/servant type loyalty based servitude than slavery when questioned in depth.

sabrina King



darkinshadows -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 1:17:49 PM)

quote:

also Angel...no need to apologize. I am learning a lot from these posts. What I think I need to do is somehow detach the word slave from the lifestyle as I know it. Re-attach it to mean what in my mind is sub. Don't know if that made sense or not...


Thanks for responding Gloria.

I am learning from these posts too. I really accept that some people have a need to call themself whatever they feel drawn to. And I have tried to detatch the word slave from the lifestyle as I know it - but it is really hard when I have spoken with people who have really been there. I know that definitions for slave are all over - but it basically comes down to owned property, and no matter how much people want to place the concpt out there - its not happening because its illegal to own a person. So the definitions out there don't stand. Yes - the definitions are there in BDSM dictionaries and the like - but those are community based, yet again. I have studied masses of dictionaries - american, english, french, australian, south african - and not one academic dictionary lists slave in a Ds/BDSM/SM context - and so I can't accept it. Call me pedantic.

Maybe what we should be doing is pushing/lobbying/campagning to get a BDSM definition of the word slave put into an academic dictionary - after all - are these people, who identify as slaves, just as important an identity as any other?

Peace and Love



darkinshadows -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 1:24:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bottominwa

i tend to agree with your sentiment angel...taking a word...and making it mean...something new...is a slippery slope for a plethra of reasons.
1) etymology is such that if one changes the meaning of a word one always runs the risk of losing the historical defition of the word all together....or cheapening it, etc. Slavery, is not something one wants to erase in anyway the historicla record of, or lessen because people find it "kiche" to use the term.
2) There has always been something baout using the word that i find disrespectful to the reality that, as earlier pointe dout, is still "slavery" in the world.
3) i personally can't comprehend what it is people find so romanticized about "slavery" anyhow. And time and time again when questioned people are truly referring to more of a liege/servant type loyalty based servitude than slavery when questioned in depth.

sabrina King


Thank you sabrina - my point exactly. I find also that the definition of slave causes huge problems in BDSM circle because you get the 'oh, I am a sub, I am completely better because I have an opinion too' or the ' i have a slave, no limits, so better than any sub - much more worthwhile and never diobeys'... it's , again, what people make of them.

Labels don't make the person - attitude does.

Blessings to your Masters house
Peace and Love



Gemeni -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 1:24:31 PM)

You asked what a Domme had to earn wolf?

I shouldn't have to tell you something so simple.

The slave.

And it's not as easy as it sounds.



bottominwa -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 1:29:28 PM)

angel-the problem comes as Gloria has schooled me on before...(she has kicked my ass verbally on more than one occassion on this topic of debate)..is that if a general definition of slavery is to be used in BDSM it really better be understood, defined and a constant..not some meely, wishy washy smoke screen.
Because as Gloria has pointed out before, there are those who say slave and mean..."slave". And some new naive sub is going to end up tied to a cot in a basement somewhere getting the shit kicked out of her...when she thought "slave" meant some flowery romanticized TPE.

sabrina King



darkinshadows -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 1:34:07 PM)

quote:

)..is that if a general definition of slavery is to be used in BDSM it really better be understood, defined and a constant..not some meely, wishy washy smoke screen. Because as Gloria has pointed out before, there are those who say slave and mean..."slave". And some new naive sub is going to end up tied to a cot in a basement somewhere getting the shit kicked out of her...when she thought "slave" meant some flowery romanticized TPE.

sabrina King


Amen to that - *nodding*

Peace and Love



Faramir -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 2:21:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
Hi Elektra

I can quite understand the desire for some people to be called a slave - thats their choice and freedom and I would never dream of pushing them to change their freedom to be. But I do question the usage of a word that means specific things. Now, Is it our duty and position as individuals to take a word - and change its definition to suit us and is this why and how word usage evolves (hey anthro - evolution thread! - would love to hear your thought on word evolution) - or should we respect those that have lived, bled and died under a specific label - and find an alternative word?
Peace and Love





Wow - what a choice. Should we indulge oursleves or "respect those that have lived, bled and died under a specific label?"

People who choose to use language to communicate - who seek for articulation and clarity - aren't callous or wicked because they don't conform to your language hot-buttons.

And what a completely contradictory statement - you would never dream of pushing people to change their language to conform to usage strictures, but you really question their choice and ask if our duty is to be "good" or "bad."

Ye Gods. What drek.




sub4hire -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 2:30:50 PM)

quote:

Because as Gloria has pointed out before, there are those who say slave and mean..."slave". And some new naive sub is going to end up tied to a cot in a basement somewhere getting the shit kicked out of her...when she thought "slave" meant some flowery romanticized TPE.


Geez, the love in the air is intoxicating...hehe.
True, I do feel that way. However, at the present moment I am only wanting to know how other's view the word. I can always go off on some tangent at a later time.

It comes down to negotiation with anyone you play with. If you say you are a slave, sub, top or bottom hopefully you are negotiating properly so you won't get the crap beat out of you.
Hey, maybe we should start a thread on how to negotiate?



darkinshadows -> RE: Define Slave (7/7/2005 2:53:31 PM)

I fully realise that people here have the ability to see what I said and not just take your empty attempt to try and twist words in a childish endeavour, so I have no need to defend my own statement, no matter how much you wish to push. Suggesting you may need to find a little self respect and mutual respect for Gloria and not try to run her OP amok. Rembering she requested no flames.

Now, I respect Gloria( I really must apologise to you again) and I respect this post. So I am not even going to bother conversing with you on this post, unless you have something constructive and interesting to say.

I however, don't respect your attitude, (yay you go boy!) even if I do respect your viewpoint. So your lucky - I have no need to kiss up to your ass, because you have already shown everyone in more than just one post, how bad your shit stinks.


Peace and Love



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