RE: Define Slave (Full Version)

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darkinshadows -> RE: Define Slave (7/8/2005 10:31:44 AM)

Thank You for a wonderful post Electra

I just wanted to ask a question - Memphis also....I enjoyed your post.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

The essential quality of slavery is that one is OWNED.


quote:

Exactly.

I will not be surprised if you encounter writers who attempt to dispute this truism. However, they can be ignored. Any intelligent and reasonable reader will consult the dictionary (or dictionaries) where they will find reported the unbiased truth that you quote.


Yup-you are completely right. But what is Owned property? When legally, You cannot own a person without breaking the law, How can anyone be a slave?

My question would be - do people try to change the law? Or do people find an alternative label? Or, do you see the law as not applicable to wiitwd and ignore it - calling ourselves slaves and owners anyway? If we do that, are we just the same as say, politians or religions that pick and choose their texts and laws, according to how it suits?

Peace and Love



ElektraUkM -> RE: Define Slave (7/8/2005 11:18:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

But what is Owned property? When legally, You cannot own a person without breaking the law, How can anyone be a slave?



My first response to this question would be... Isn't there a difference between something that is not 'legally recognised' and something that is 'breaking the law'?

We don't have to break the law to do what we do. Do we need to ask, in additon, to have something sanctified by our local/national laws in order for it to exist as a reality in out Lifestyle..? I don't think so.

~ Elektra





sub4hire -> RE: Define Slave (7/8/2005 11:50:22 AM)

quote:

interesting bordering on fascinating. thank you.. clear, precise, and easy.
hmm. ok. i guess i must be different. okay fine. thanks
the wolf


You are a man, correct? Most men I know who are submissive have a different outlook on life than I ever have had. Most will take more risks than I will. When I was searching for a dominant I took little to no risks.
Now, when it comes to an abuser, sure I'll take a risk but to me in my mind that is defined differently. It is not me getting into an abusive relationship eyes closed.
Make sense?

Mani, I do not joke about the lifestyle. I also never said the internet has given people free reign to do other's in. What I said was, the term has changed dramatically since the birth of the internet.
I was stating what the term was when I was first learning about BDSM. It is not the same now.
If the internet had never been born...I imagine the definition of the term would not have changed over the year's either.



Faramir -> RE: Define Slave (7/8/2005 11:59:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel



quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

The essential quality of slavery is that one is OWNED.


Exactly.


Yup-you are completely right. But what is Owned property? When legally, You cannot own a person without breaking the law, How can anyone be a slave?

Peace and Love


Because words can have more than a single denotation in language - that's how. There is one denotation of the word "slave" that deals with intra-social bondage - to be legally recognized by the polity as a slave. The 13th Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits this - in the US, this kind of slavery, this denotation of the word, is not extant.

But most of us are taking about something completely different - a denotation of "slave" that has nothing to do with the property and tort rules of the polity (intra-social) but rather is internal to the relationship.

If we decide I own her - if she agrees and I agree, internal to the relationship, that I own her, then ipso facto I own her.



MemphisDsCouple -> RE: Define Slave (7/8/2005 6:27:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

But what is Owned property? When legally, You cannot own a person without breaking the law, How can anyone be a slave?




What a nicely phrased question. But do you remember this part?


quote:

ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple

Slave Ownership - Truth or Charade?


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

Now there is a good argument to say that no-one in the societies in which we live (at least) can be legally owned. And to me, that is the best argument against the term 'slave' that there is.



I have considered addressing this topic in writing for some time. As you say, it does appear on its face that the illegality of slavery would argue against the literal possibility of being or owning a slave. But let's look at this a little more closely.

If you are under legal age, have liquor in your car, and you are stopped by a traffic cop - what is the first thing that cop says? In my experience, the cop says, "Is this your liquor?" If you possess illegal drugs and the police find the drugs, what is the first thing they say? "Are these your drugs?"

The illegality of ownership of something does not change the fact that you own it! This is very important if we want to see the truth in the argument against slavery that we are addressing. Therefore, I repeat for emphasis: The illegality of ownership of something does not change the fact that we own it!

Let's look further. We are talking about slavery. Slavery, though outlawed, though illegal, exists today. I refer any reader who would dispute this fact to USA Today, NY Times (and so on) archives. You will find a multitude of documented accounts of slavery that exists in the world. You will find successful, documented prosecutions of slave traders in the USA who smuggle slaves (usually for the purpose of sex workers) into the USA. You will find the same type cases in Europe. You will find institutions from the western world who go to the Sudan to buy slaves from slave traders in order to free those slaves they just bought.

In spite of the illegality of slavery, slavery exists. Slaves exist. And slave owners exist. These are facts we can document.

Therefore, I conclude that the fact of illegality does not equal that a person can not give herself to be owned. The fact of illegality does not preclude me from owning my girl.

Illegality and Slavery are not mutually exclusive. They can (and do!) both exist simultaneously.





And now I'm off to vacation in the mountains. Be well good people.



zaynab -> RE: Define Slave (7/8/2005 7:16:28 PM)

i have a question about the "slave" thing.....
if a person is a slave and they "give their all" totally, forever and amen,
wouldn't that person revolt if their Master did something they thought was unacceptable....
like spend all their money on new clothes and not buy enough food for their kids?
or something like that?

and if they do revolt, that would mean that they really DO have requirements and rights...
they aren't 101% with no rights.....

if someone did not rebel against bad treatment as described above, i would think they would need therapy..... as you can see, im not real familiar with the whole "slave" thing as I know I'll be getting a lot of "what a stupid question" responses.... ~ zaynab (sub)



pleasureforHim -> RE: Define Slave (7/8/2005 7:19:28 PM)

dark angel was right...and people who went into hyper-space after she wrote about the REAL slavery which exists around the world and in the US are a bit -- well -- dim, in my opinion. That issue is amoung the most disturbing of our day, and forgotten by so many, including self-proclaimed feminists. It is so rare to see anyone give voice to the horrors these women endure, and i commend dark angel for doing so.

There's something else which has bothered me since coming to CM; the black Master seeking a slave. OUCH. That imagery just floats above his head? His grandparents or great-grandparents WERE slaves..and yet he can bring himself to use that word for sexual purposes? Yikes.

This brings me sort of to my next point. i DO respect everyone's "kink" unless you tell me you get off on involving children in your sexual life. Doesn't mean i understand it, or could choose it. i cannot understand why women who wish to pledge to a man a greater degree of submission cannot find a word that does not carry connotations of such suffering, degradation, and horror. No other word could possibly convey your depth of feeling? You must resort to "slave"?

i have been told stories -- and since this is the internet, who the hell knows -- of women being sold by one Master to another. A woman in that position needs help. i have also been told -- by a Master who "courted" me -- that i would own nothing; all my property would become his, and whatever i acquired or earned would be his as well, So that if the relationship ever failed, i'd have nothing whatsoever. Imagine how enticing that was to a woman my age. (This guy happened to live in California, home of palimony and equal division of assets.) Was i supposed to reliquish all my security to be with him? And why exactly would he need me to do that? Naturally, that never got off the ground.

i suppose if it gives you the shivers to be called a "slave" by all means, have at it. It's just role playing. i can see myself in a harem girl outfit too. But to treat "slavery" as if it were a bona fide "section" or "type" of woman available to the Doms and Masters on CM is like telling a fairy tale. Slavery is illegal under the 13th Amendment; per force; no Dom or Master can own a slave in the US legally. What You are really talking about is a long term role playing engagement with rules i suspect are different from couple to couple, and year to year.

Much as i think i'd love role playing; to be stuck in the same role all the time would bore the shit out of me..so i guess i need more variety. i guess i also need a Dom or Master who is secure enough in Himself not to need a fantasy of being a slaveowner to feel He is the dominant in O/our relationship.

i before i get flamed; my apologies to the 3/4ths of everyone i have annoyed. i could not hold it in any more.

pleasureforHim



cellogrrlMK -> RE: Define Slave (7/8/2005 7:45:45 PM)

You GO girl!!!!!!! ^5!!!!!!!



ElektraUkM -> RE: Define Slave (7/9/2005 1:32:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zaynab

i have a question about the "slave" thing.....
if a person is a slave and they "give their all" totally, forever and amen,
wouldn't that person revolt if their Master did something they thought was unacceptable....
like spend all their money on new clothes and not buy enough food for their kids?
or something like that?

and if they do revolt, that would mean that they really DO have requirements and rights...
they aren't 101% with no rights.....

if someone did not rebel against bad treatment as described above, i would think they would need therapy..... as you can see, im not real familiar with the whole "slave" thing as I know I'll be getting a lot of "what a stupid question" responses.... ~ zaynab (sub)


There's a thread relating to these types of questions currently in the 'Ask A Submissive' section:

Obeying your dominant, even when they're wrong.

~ Elektra



ElektraUkM -> RE: Define Slave (7/9/2005 1:51:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pleasureforHim

i cannot understand why women who wish to pledge to a man a greater degree of submission cannot find a word that does not carry connotations of such suffering, degradation, and horror. No other word could possibly convey your depth of feeling? You must resort to "slave"?


You seem to be stating here that it's not so much the 'greater degree of submission' that you object to, but the term 'slave'. I can see how it might be impossible for some people to get beyond the negative connotations of the word, even when as here, they have been given examples of types of slavery which don't suffer from the same connotations. I can see that that would be especially difficult in the USA.

I don't think it's fair to accuse slaves coming into the Lifestyle now of 'resorting' to the term slave, since it's been used for decades (longer? I have no idea). Personally I've always been anti-slavery in my politics, and was surprised to hear the term in use in personal relationships. However, I suppose it was because of my Classical background that I didn't have too much of a problem in accepting that the term did not have to have totally negative connotations.

Do you imagine that people fitting clutches have similar horrific reactions when encountering a 'slave cylinder'? I wonder. Then again, that is not such a great parallel, since they're not dealing with people, but objects.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pleasureforHim

i have been told stories -- and since this is the internet, who the hell knows -- of women being sold by one Master to another. A woman in that position needs help. i have also been told...


There are horror stories to be found in all places. This goes back to the OP and the murdered woman. Here you're not commenting so much on the use of the word, as on examples of extreme behaviour within the context of what was (presumably) a M/slave relationship. Is it fair to take one (or however many) example of abuse and therefore conclude that all people living in a M/s relationship are therefore in danger? I don't think so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pleasureforHim

i suppose if it gives you the shivers to be called a "slave" by all means, have at it. It's just role playing. i can see myself in a harem girl outfit too. But to treat "slavery" as if it were a bona fide "section" or "type" of woman available to the Doms and Masters on CM is like telling a fairy tale.


Perhaps you're projecting your own horror/fantasies of what a 'slave' means onto other people here? If you're not yourself a slave, why presume to comment for those who do conduct their relationship in that way?

quote:

ORIGINAL: pleasureforHim Slavery is illegal under the 13th Amendment...


This has already been addressed in a number of posts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pleasureforHim
Much as i think i'd love role playing; to be stuck in the same role all the time would bore the shit out of me..so i guess i need more variety. i guess i also need a Dom or Master who is secure enough in Himself not to need a fantasy of being a slaveowner to feel He is the dominant in O/our relationship


These are comments about the type of relationship you prefer. They're also somewhat scathing and dismissive of others in the Lifestyle who you don't happen to agree with. Not sure that they are relevant to a discussion on the definition of the word slave in BDSM? I do wonder, however, how a person's chosen relationship can be dismissed as 'roleplaying'.

~ Elektra





GentleLady -> RE: Define Slave (7/9/2005 7:45:05 AM)

quote:

by a Master who "courted" me -- that i would own nothing; all my property would become his, and whatever i acquired or earned would be his as well, So that if the relationship ever failed, i'd have nothing whatsoever.

This describes My first and second vanilla marriages beautifully.

Gentle Lady



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Define Slave (7/9/2005 8:40:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pleasureforHim
i have been told stories -- and since this is the internet, who the hell knows -- of women being sold by one Master to another. A woman in that position needs help.

So much for respecting others kink.



pleasureforHim -> RE: Define Slave (7/9/2005 8:47:55 AM)

[color=#CC0099]
quote:

These are comments about the type of relationship you prefer. They're also somewhat scathing and dismissive of others in the Lifestyle who you don't happen to agree with. Not sure that they are relevant to a discussion on the definition of the word slave in BDSM? I do wonder, however, how a person's chosen relationship can be dismissed as 'roleplaying'.

~ Elektra


ElectraUkM -- my deepest apologies if i offended You by suggesting some disrespect for You or Your relationship. My only point was, because slavery is illegal in the US, a man and woman who enter into a "Master and slave" relationship are, per force, entering into a role playing fiction; to be fleshed out between the two of them. Personally, i could not find satisfaction in playing the same role, day after day...but i do not judge others.

i DID say i find it unfortunate that women would select "slave" as the moniker to describe the depth of their feelings of submission and lack of limits, if in fact that is what the title means to each woman who claims it. The reason i find it unfortunate is because (1) the US history of slavery is an abomination; and (2) the current slavery in the US and around the world is so rarely mentioned, much less addressed by the United Nations or other bodies. So by using the term "slave" to describe a consensual relationship with a man, i feel the suffering of real slaves is marginalized even more.

i do realise the use of the word "slave" has a history in BDSM. i simply do not find that a sufficient justification, in and of itself, to continue its usage if harm to others is caused, or if it can be replaced with a words that better describe the feelings and relationship between the two people involved. As i have stated before, any man who needs a 24/7/365 fantasy that he is a slaveowner is way too insecure for me.

pleasureforHim



flirt -> RE: Define Slave (7/9/2005 8:51:28 AM)

i will try to keep it short and direct. It is a topic i have written an article on before and as mentioned explanaition could go on and on and end up nowhere.

i am a slave. What makes me a slave? When i become a slave to a particular Master i am:


His property

It goes beyond submission, and becomes "surrender"

my limits are His, i have none of my own

slavery comes from a deeper learning of trust developed over time

i believe that i am His to do with as He pleases

Negotiations were made, and the potential for new ones voided.

Serving Him is the reward, when my wants are met it is an extra reward.



i could go deeper but don't feel it is the right arena. What really angers me is when i hear people say things like, a slave has no mind of her own, or i would never want a slave because i don't want a robot or doormat, even, i would not want a slave because i would want to be able to have a conversation with her. The strength and intelligence of a 'true' slave is beautiful and to be admired.

The best way to describe it, at least for me is that it is submission in a new relationship and after a while of learning growing and trust it gives way to complete surrender. Being a slave means i can't turn it off and on or have a date for it over the weekend. When owned and serving i am at my best and feel the most natural.

sincerely,

flirt


Gemeni SIr, said it much better than i, He said it all.




pleasureforHim -> RE: Define Slave (7/9/2005 9:03:29 AM)

quote:

The best way to describe it, at least for me is that it is submission in a new relationship and after a while of learning growing and trust it gives way to complete surrender. Being a slave means i can't turn it off and on or have a date for it over the weekend. When owned and serving i am at my best and feel the most natural.

sincerely,

flirt


i feel that way as well; so i suppose the relationship i hope for would be descibed by others as "slavery"; but i'd never tolerate such a moniker; to me it is repugnant and belittles the horrors that were suffered and are suffered by actual slaves. Actually i hope for a Man who needs no labels, no titles, and simply allows O/our relationship to develop to its fullest without expectations taken from a book on s/m; slavery; or other topics.

pleasureforHim



lonewolf05 -> RE: Define Slave (7/9/2005 10:55:33 AM)

it also describes my 1st Mistress.

the wolf



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Define Slave (7/9/2005 3:17:33 PM)


quote:

Being a slave means i can't turn it off and on or have a date for it
i feel that way as well; so i suppose the relationship i hope for would be descibed by others as "slavery"; but i'd never tolerate such a moniker; to me it is repugnant and belittles the horrors that were suffered and are suffered by actual slaves. Actually i hope for a Man who needs no labels, no titles, and simply allows O/our relationship to develop to its fullest without expectations taken from a book on s/m; slavery; or other topics.

pleasureforHim

I can completely understand not liking the label of "slave." It makes a lot of sense to me and I certainly hope that no one finds my own name offensive because it's a term I choose to identify with, just as some would call themselves lady or goddess- it's not meant as a diminutive to the historical or "actual" slaves out there, simply my own perspective.

However, your original post went a LOT further than that- degrading some of the ACTIONS and AGREEMENTS that people in those relationships choose to do (like being able to be sold), whether you call it slavery or not. That is a completely separate issue from not liking the label or use of the label itself.



zaynab -> RE: Define Slave (7/9/2005 4:19:49 PM)

thank you, Elektra *big smile



kisshou -> RE: Define Slave (7/9/2005 6:21:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire
So, I’m here asking for honest definitions to hopefully help myself evolve to today’s way of thinking.


slave
n.

1. One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.
2. One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence: “I was still the slave of education and prejudice” (Edward Gibbon).
3. One who works extremely hard.
4. A machine or component controlled by another machine or component.

bound
adj.

1. Confined by bonds; tied: bound and gagged hostages.
2. Being under legal or moral obligation: bound by my promise.

ser·vi·tude
n.

1.
a. A state of subjection to an owner or master.
b. Lack of personal freedom, as to act as one chooses.

my definition: a person who by their promise agrees to relinquish their personal freedom to act as they choose and to be subservient to a specified Person (Master)

Mas·ter
n.

1. One that has control over another or others.
2.
1. The owner or keeper of an animal: The dog ran toward its master.
2. The owner of a slave.
3. One who has control over or ownership of something.



slavedesires -> RE: Define Slave (7/9/2005 8:39:15 PM)

i dont know, i do agree with dark~angel, once you have seen real slavery, you know a BDSM D/s slave is really truly differnt. i just know what works for Us.
but i would like to share a friends feelngs on being a slave.....maybe it might help form a "definition" for someone...............
"I awoke today feeling very slave like. I shared this thought with
Master. He asked, "How does slave like feel?" I said, "It feels calm
and assuring. Like the still waters that run deep beneath the
turbulence above." Master then said, "that is because what I have
offers you a sanctuary from the hectic life you must deal with. I am
your safety net." Today I feel such gratitude in my heart. While for
a season longer, I must navigate, atop the rivers of rough waters; I
am able to retreat to the depths that are quieted beneath them. The
place deep within my soul where the bond Master and I share resides.
It is there, where i am safe from all predators."

Perhaps this fits Gemeni's definiton:
One who submits herself to totally serving a trusted Master, and takes his limits as her own


~~shy



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