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Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 7:59:06 AM

MadRabbit

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I wanted to post this here since I think it relates to the Alternate Lifestyle scene in general.

Last night, I got into an interesting discussion with my co worker regarding homosexuality, their relationships, and alternate lifestyles in general. He is a conservative with some generally narrowminded viewpoints. For example, I mentioned in the course of the discussion that I was a sadist and a dominant and despite my attempts, I couldnt really get him to see past sadomasochism as being "self mutilation" (rolls eyes).

Anyways, he presented one particularly interesting argument that actually made me stop and think.

His conjecture is that homosexual relationships are merely about sex and cant reach as deep as an emotional connection as a heterosexual couple because of their inability to have children. I was able to, at least, get him to admit that its possible for two homosexuals to have eros love for one another, but he views this love as shallow or lacking. His opinion is that the ability to create offspring is the pinnacle of human emotional experience and a couple that does not at least have this ability or can attempt to have children that are conceived of their own flesh and blood (not adopted) cant reach as deep of a level of emotional connection (or as he put it "True Love")

What are your opinions on this?

Do you think there is connection between the ability to have children and the depth of our romantic love for one another?

Do you think its possible that homosexuals cannot experience love the same heterosexuals can because of their inability to even attempt to have a child?

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:01:24 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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LOL I'd think the sheer number of adults who can't conceive due to physical issues, as well as the number of parents who DO reproduce (intentionally and UNintentionally) but divorce or are deadbeats or abusive pretty much throws that theory out the window.

Biological conception has nothing to do with social and interrelationship sense of commitment and intimacy.

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:04:47 AM

Dnomyar

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Ever hear of adoption?

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:06:09 AM

kittinSol

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I see no correlation between love and the ability to procreate. Otherwise, it would mean that menopausal women, infertile people and many others would be unable to love.

Which is clearly not the case.

As for saying that homosexual love is inferior to hetero love, well... give your coworker Plato's "The Banquet". It's a classic.

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:08:31 AM

MadRabbit

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That was actually two arguments I presented to him.

In response to the physical handicaps, he replied that success or failure didnt make any difference. It was having the natural biological ability (the sex organs) to attempt.

In response to the high divorce rate, he said that those relationships were shallow to begin with and simply not meant to be together. He equated homosexual relationships to being on that same shallow level as a whole. That no matter how much they tried, they couldnt reach the deep level of emotional connection as a heterosexual couple who already had deep love who could attempt to have a child together. Hence, the ability or possesion of the sex organs to have a child adds an extra degree to the emotional connection between two people.

I am in agreement with you L.A. I thought, however, this might make for somewhat of an interesting discussion so am playing devil's advocate with the conjecture that was presented to me.

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:10:21 AM

MissIsis

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What she said. With all the divorces in the world, & all the little ones L
being born into loveless marriages, I think your friends theory is blown right out of the water.

The homosexual relationships, I have seen, seem to have much more love than most heterosexual relationships I have seen. (disclaimer: I said I have seen.) If we had a choice, would we prefer little ones to grow up in a loving home with 2 homosexual people, or would we prefer them to grow up in a home with 2 people who can't stand each other?

I suspect most people would prefer the latter. After all, look at TV & real life. Most of us think nothing of letting our little ones watch things with violence on TV, but will scream & holler like crazy, if someone on TV even accidentally shows too much skin.

Look at the hype that went on during that football game. It was perfectly ok for our little ones to watch football players bowl each other over, but it was totally unacceptable when the singer showed less skin than seen at a public beach.

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:10:36 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Ever hear of adoption?

Adoption was something that was excluded from the parameters of a debate because we were discussing solely children conceived of a person's own flesh, blood and body.

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:14:21 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I see no correlation between love and the ability to procreate. Otherwise, it would mean that menopausal women, infertile people and many others would be unable to love.

Which is clearly not the case.

As for saying that homosexual love is inferior to hetero love, well... give your coworker Plato's "The Banquet". It's a classic.

The argument wasnt based on the success of conception, but rather the ability to at least attempt to conceive (having a penis and a vagina, not 2 penises). That this sole sexual act was the only gateway to the pinncale of human emotional connection (aka because heterosexuals have the right sex organs they can achieve "True Love" and homosexuals cant).

I will look into the "The Bangquet" next time at the library. I havent read it

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:14:32 AM

Grlwithboy

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This is so absurd, as someone who's bisexual and completely disinterested in having children, as to be beneath arguing. One could say that men can't really love because they can't give birth and it would be as moronic.

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:15:59 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Then he's basically reducing the state of love into genetics and sexual hormones since that's that main bulk of what makes pro creation possible at all. But since he then states that even WHEN reproduction is possible, love doesn't follow, that throws this idea out the window. It's either biological or it's not. Unless he's suggesting that all people have a "love gene" but somehow only in heterosexuals does the gene get triggered by being in close proximity to another person with the correct biological equipment to possibly reproduce?

I'd say it's another case of someone who creates a system that's somehow always right- but ignores all the double standards and flaws inherent to it. Not to mention the arrogance of suggesting you can decide how committed another person is.

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:17:14 AM

LadyPact

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LA, you beat Me to it, as you often do.

One thing I would like to add. It seems to Me that the concept of whether or not a person can reproduce with their chosen partner, doesn't seem to Me to be a barrier to the depth of how much they can love that person. To Me, it is a greater triumph to love a person, in the face of a world where many can not accept that idea. I would think, in the face of such adversity from the closed minded, that it would make the love stronger, and deeper, just for the fact that it exists.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:19:17 AM

came4U

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The genEROSity of two lovers who live in dear and truthful affection of eachother have no need for any other being (offspring, family or friend) to become completely and utterly in love.

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:19:50 AM

Grlwithboy

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Debating this is like putting "Do Jews bleed when you prick us" back on the table of debate. Some things are beneath argument, no?

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:20:27 AM

kittinSol

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Have you asked your coworker how he explains the increasing incidence of homosexual couples (male and female) adopting children or conceiving by AI? When I had my son (London, 1998) I was part of a very friendly midwifery group. We kept on meeting after the births of our children. One of us was gay and she had conceived her son by artificial insemination and she had a very serious partner - they would have married, had they been able to: she certainly wasn't any less loving than the rest of us.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 8/21/2007 8:21:08 AM >

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:21:37 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Then he's basically reducing the state of love into genetics and sexual hormones since that's that main bulk of what makes pro creation possible at all. But since he then states that even WHEN reproduction is possible, love doesn't follow, that throws this idea out the window. It's either biological or it's not. Unless he's suggesting that all people have a "love gene" but somehow only in heterosexuals does the gene get triggered by being in close proximity to another person with the correct biological equipment to possibly reproduce?

I'd say it's another case of someone who creates a system that's somehow always right- but ignores all the double standards and flaws inherent to it. Not to mention the arrogance of suggesting you can decide how committed another person is.

Thank you, L.A. That was the missing argument I was looking for, but hadnt been able to come to yet.

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Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:24:23 AM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

What are your opinions on this?

My personal opinion? That your co-worker is full of BS.

quote:

Do you think there is connection between the ability to have children and the depth of our romantic love for one another?

Hell no. Otherwise sterile heterosexual women would never have love.

quote:

Do you think its possible that homosexuals cannot experience love the same heterosexuals can because of their inability to even attempt to have a child?

Is there a way to say no strongly enough to express my feelings on the matter?

They will not experience having their partner carry their child and give birth but oh well. Plenty of heterosexual couples can't have that either and they use surrogate mothers or adopt. I have first hand experience at how well these families turn out. I've also seen a pair of lesbians doting on their newly adopted infant son. From the love they gave him, and each other, you would never know he wasn't theirs by blood.

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:27:06 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

Debating this is like putting "Do Jews bleed when you prick us" back on the table of debate. Some things are beneath argument, no?

Yes and no.

Yes, I find personally that this whole idea is ludicrous.

But, no, in real time with people I am developing friendships with, I try and give all viewpoints and arguments at least some openmindness and thought and at least think them threw completely before dismissing them on my first reactions.

I happen to like the guy. Even though he had his own opinions and own alternate viewpoints, he was at least respectful of mine and respectful of homosexual's right to have relationship.

He, at least, gave me the oppurtunity to explain my own lifestyle regarding dominance and sadist and even though he clearly didnt "get it", he didnt make fun of me, mock me, laugh at me, or call me a freak...even if it was clear that my own confession made him uncomfortable and made him leave the conversation a bit early for the night.

If I respond to him with indignation and mockery, then I wont ever make any progress in changing his viewpoints and would be throwing away a friendship that I would actually enjoy having.

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Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:33:04 AM

domiguy

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Your friend is a moron when it comes to this topic....We unfortunately all have acquaintances that simply don't "get it."

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:33:36 AM

Grlwithboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

Debating this is like putting "Do Jews bleed when you prick us" back on the table of debate. Some things are beneath argument, no?

Yes and no.

Yes, I find personally that this whole idea is ludicrous.

But, no, in real time with people I am developing friendships with, I try and give all viewpoints and arguments at least some openmindness and thought and at least think them threw completely before dismissing them on my first reactions.

I happen to like the guy. Even though he had his own opinions and own alternate viewpoints, he was at least respectful of mine and respectful of homosexual's right to have relationship.

He, at least, gave me the oppurtunity to explain my own lifestyle regarding dominance and sadist and even though he clearly didnt "get it", he didnt make fun of me, mock me, laugh at me, or call me a freak...even if it was clear that my own confession made him uncomfortable and made him leave the conversation a bit early for the night.

If I respond to him with indignation and mockery, then I wont ever make any progress in changing his viewpoints and would be throwing away a friendship that I would actually enjoy having.

I guess. I have too much at stake to befriend anyone who thinks that I am not capable of real love and I have no faith in some people's viewpoints to change because of something I said. And it's people's prerogative to not get me, or to think something downright hostile to me, as long as they leave me alone.

I think in a case like this the respectful thing for someone like me to do is just stay clear and let them think whatever. Not considering something up for debate doesn't mean I don't respect the other person whatsoever, I just can't in any conscience respect the opinion held. While I respect the right to have it.

I also don't tend to make confessions about my sexuality around people I'm not pretty rock-solid with.

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RE: Homosexuality and Parenthood - 8/21/2007 8:33:49 AM

spankmepink11

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quote:

Do you think there is connection between the ability to have children and the depth of our romantic love for one another?

I don't think the ability to have children together has any baring on the depth of romantic love.

Do you think its possible that homosexuals cannot experience love the same heterosexuals can because of their inability to even attempt to have a child?

I believe that human, romantic love, is based on, and borne through experiencing the human condition as a whole, together.

< Message edited by spankmepink11 -- 8/21/2007 8:42:20 AM >

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Post #: 20

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