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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 10:09:06 AM   
GhitaAmati


Posts: 3263
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline 		Wasnt there supposed to be a whole lot of gold under the towers? What ever happened to it if there was?

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(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 10:14:32 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Yes Rule, the extra energy is gravity, to bring down the columns, once the broke lose, they fell. 

I guess there is no evidence of  planes hitting the towers except for the videos and hundreds of eye witnesses.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 10:47:29 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
the extra energy is gravity, to bring down the columns
No, it is not extra energy. The gravitational energy must already be part of the total energy datum of 110 000 kWh supplied by Real One. If there are twenty dead fish, there are twenty dead fish. One cannot count one dead fish twice and say that there are 21 dead fish.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
once they broke lose, they fell.
It is not that simple. To disintegrate into sections as those columns did, requires lots of energy. That the sections of outer columns afterwards fell does not add to the energy of the demolition process, as they were moving away from the tower. If anything, lower parts of the columns, having less load to bear, should have been fine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
I guess there is no evidence of  planes hitting the towers except for the videos and hundreds of eye witnesses.
The videos were forged. I have done some research on some eye witnesses and could find only a handful, hitting a blank wall when I tried to find any pertinent information about them - some researchers, though, have argued that some of these eye-witnesses are highly suspect of complicity. I have concluded that those researchers are right.
 
Also, there are reports that at least one of the towers was hit by missiles fired from the air and that one or more stealth technology warcraft were observed immediately before and after the strike. I do not know what to think about that, but I do not reject the possibility out of hand.
 
How many New Yorkers do you personally know that swear that they saw those two towers being hit by an airplane? Any who claims to have witnessed those impacts - to have actually seen the airplanes hit - is either lying, or suspect.

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 10:58:18 AM   
luckydog1


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Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		No I do not think my great aunt was lying or suspect.  I think you are.  I realise you are the master debater, and have your views that can not be changed.  So you and real can hold your fantasy close and dear if you like.  There is a reason why real wants you to calculate 110 floors of pancaking, instead of the 70 that actaully happened, on dozens of films.  It pancaked starting at the impact point.  Not even going to bother asking you for any evidence of forgred videos.  Enjoy your fantasy

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 11:02:09 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

The videos were forged. I have done some research on some eye witnesses and could find only a handful, hitting a blank wall when I tried to find any pertinent information about them - some researchers, though, have argued that some of these eye-witnesses are highly suspect of complicity. I have concluded that those researchers are right.
 
Also, there are reports that at least one of the towers was hit by missiles fired from the air and that one or more stealth technology warcraft were observed immediately before and after the strike. I do not know what to think about that, but I do not reject the possibility out of hand.
 
How many New Yorkers do you personally know that swear that they saw those two towers being hit by an airplane? Any who claims to have witnessed those impacts - to have actually seen the airplanes hit - is either lying, or suspect.

 
The second plane was shown hitting the towers on live television from numerous cameras.  It was videotaped and still photographed by dozens of citizens.  It would take a massive conspiracy to get that many individual media outlets and amateur photographers to forge video and photographs, especially the live coverage that most of watched in real time.   I have talked to quite a few people that saw it, including a relative of mine that was in the city at the time.  
 
The so called reports of stealth aircraft and missiles being seen came from who by the way?  The overwhelming majority of people do not know enough about aircraft to identify the specific make when they see it in the air.  A good example of this is the thousands of UFO sightings that take place every year.  Also you may want to consider the possibility that the people making these claims are like many UFO buffs....they are lying or mentally unbalanced.   

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 11:10:26 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Just moving off to my pet conspiracy: if the JFK assassination wasn't one then I am  Lee Harvey Oswald and by rights I am dead.

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 11:21:48 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		My favorite conspiracy theorist nutjob is Mark Koernke, otherwise known as "Mark from Michigan."  If you want a really good laugh, you should listen to this jackass's old shortwave broadcasts, speeches, and writings.  He claimed that Timothy McVeigh was actually a sleeper agent with a microchip implanted in his brain carrying out orders via electronic signals to blow up the federal building in OKC.  He also claimed that the Chinese and U.N.  were hiding soldiers in a secret underground base below Lake Michigan.  They were massing there until the call came out to seize American's guns.   This is who I think of when I hear the conspiracy theories start flowing. 

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 11:29:21 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Fast reply:

So all the live feeds from the networks and all the eyewitnesses are doctored or in league? Do you realize the amount of secrecy, of what is supposedly the real information, needed to maintain such? Have you ever read anything on information containment or control? I doubt even the hedgemonies in a paranoid delusionist's mind could create a group with enough influence to keep that under control.

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 8/25/2007 11:30:11 AM >

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 11:50:39 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
No I do not think my great aunt was lying or suspect.
I suppose that she has passed away and thus can no longer bear witness to the fact?
 
There was someone else on CM that claimed that two of his colleagues were aboard the planes. When I asked for details on the other side, he refused, claiming that he wanted to protect his identity, despite my assurance of anonimity. I suspect that his claim was false.
 
If the detailed testimony of your great aunt is not somewhere on the web with a biography of her as well as other pertinent details about her, then it is without any value at all.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
are the master debater, and have your views that can not be changed.

Shows that you do not know me at all. I am eager to revise my perceptions of the world and of the universe. Just present me with the necessary facts or with a better hypothesis.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
There is a reason why real wants you to calculate 110 floors of pancaking, instead of the 70 that actually happened, on dozens of films.  It pancaked starting at the impact point.

It does not matter at what floor any hypothetical pancaking started if the data supplied by RealOne were correct. If the potential energy of a tower was 110 000 kWh (it is a weird number) and if it takes 135 000 kWh to pulverize 90 000 tons of floor, then there is a 25 000 kWh problem.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
Not even going to bother asking you for any evidence of forged videos.

That is because they already know that Google is their friend.

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/25/2007 11:52:31 AM >

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:00:53 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		This is partly the point of my op. The second plane hitting the building was shown live worldwide. As Orion and others have said, that would need too many people to be involved to ever be able to keep it covered up.

What it does though, is take away as to why the towers actually fell so fast. As far as i know, the towers were the first anywhere in the world to fall due to fire. My understanding is that all Port Authority construction is excempt from NYC building regulations. Therefore to build higher and cheaper, construction specifications may have been skimped on.

The Empire state building was built in a totally different way, solid concrete floors and an allround box girder system, as against corrugated steel sections covered with lightweight concrete. Then linked to curtain walling.

Ghita..... i am not sure who provided the link, maybe it was Realone, but there is a video in which rescue service personnel talk of having to halt work while bullion was removed. The NYFD then marched to complain about not being allowed to continue with the clear up operation.



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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:03:55 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Real, there is no need to do the math, when you set up a false premise.  The pancaking did not start from the 110th floor, but from the around the 70th.   With 30 plus floors falling onto one. We have been through this before, you are attempting to use Millers ridiculous work..  You are leaving out the explosion from the impact, as well as all the fires, and exploding things in the fire, there was natural gas flowing into the rubble keeping the fire burning for a long time.  If you keep feeding a fire fuel it keeps burning, no real surprise.

Now lets talk about your math and science skills, how is the cold Fusion/ perpetual motion machine coming along.  It should have been running for a few months by now, right?

Garbage in, Garbage out


your whole post here is absolutely 1000% worthless as it does not address my point.

address my point:

Do the math lucky. 



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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:09:13 PM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

If someone really wanted to know the truth, they'd pick up a Physics book.



You have seriously not been paying attention in your upper lever classes have you? The more higher physics and math I take, the more confused about the world around us I am. After a while you just have to come to the conclusion that there are things that just can not be explained by equations, but the more equations you learn, the more you want to try.....

Have you ever wondered why high level engineers are required to take a phsycology class??


Have you ever stopped to consider that you might be confused because you're losing part of your ignorance?

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:12:17 PM   
FullCircle


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Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

As far as i know, the towers were the first anywhere in the world to fall due to fire.



Not so. There are many cases where fire has caused the collapse of steel framed buildings. This is the reason we know there is a requirement for fire protection.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave previously on this matter. I feel like a Prime Minister now.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=748695

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:25:10 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		FullCircle.......You sound like Tony Blair at Prime Ministers questions. i rest my case 

While you are correct about the fire proofing being stripped by the impact ( and thats if it was applied correctly and to the specified uniform thickness ) The inner cores are normally a seperate entity. The inner cores are still inherently strong enough to stay standing. They don`t depend on outer walls for any strength, as shown by this link.

http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.projectview&upload_id=1297

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:28:16 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Bah.  I ignored your orginal request for the math since you failed to answer my question.

lucky's point is a valid one.  Those numbers are just worthless in this context.

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:32:42 PM   
FullCircle


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Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

FullCircle.......You sound like Tony Blair at Prime Ministers questions. i rest my case 

While you are correct about the fire proofing being stripped by the impact ( and thats if it was applied correctly and to the specified uniform thickness ) The inner cores are normally a seperate entity. The inner cores are still inherently strong enough to stay standing. They don`t depend on outer walls for any strength, as shown by this link.

http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.projectview&upload_id=1297


The steel frame on each level would have been fixed to the concrete cores with shear connectors; this is your weakest point. If one floor, already transferring the load from floors above, falls onto another you have impact loading on the lower floor. You can imagine how this could have a cascade effect down the structure. The location of the impact was crucial for the successful demolition of those structures.

The concrete cores are not independent of the main structure as they act to give the structure lateral stability from static wind forces and dynamic ground movements caused by earthquakes etc.

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:33:36 PM   
QuietDom


Posts: 255
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		As much as I don't want to get involved in this discussion, it is curious that the conspiracy theorist's math depends on the force required to pulverize concrete into an aerosol.  One would think that smashing it to rubble would be quite sufficient to enable the pancaking, and not need so much energy.  In addition, the figure for the gravitiational potential energy of the tower reflects the structure alone.  The actual masses involved are those of the tower structure, PLUS one large airplane, its cargo and its passengers, PLUS 110 floors worth of furniture, partitions and so forth.  If you consider those masses to be negligible, go pick up a concrete block.  Heavy isn't it?  Now pick up a standard 3-drawer filing cabinet full of files -- not so negligible, is it, even relative to concrete?

All that aside, the best explanation I've heard for conspiracy theories says that they are comforting.  We live in a world where significant things can just happen from minor causes.  One nutball can kill a popular president.  A handful of fanatics can destroy skyscrapers.  If those things can happen, then something awful could happen to you tomorrow, by freak chance, and you'd never see it coming.  To the conspiracy theorist (says this account) the world feels much safer if you believe that all major or significant events are controlled by people -- some shadowy and all-powerful cabal somewhere.  Thinking that the people in charge are secretive and malevolent is still not as scary as the truth that nobody is truly in charge.

[EDIT] Grim as it is, there's one more mass to consider.  Thousands of adult humans, averaging perhaps 150lbs each.

< Message edited by QuietDom -- 8/25/2007 12:37:37 PM >

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:41:17 PM   
GhitaAmati


Posts: 3263
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

If someone really wanted to know the truth, they'd pick up a Physics book.



You have seriously not been paying attention in your upper lever classes have you? The more higher physics and math I take, the more confused about the world around us I am. After a while you just have to come to the conclusion that there are things that just can not be explained by equations, but the more equations you learn, the more you want to try.....

Have you ever wondered why high level engineers are required to take a phsycology class??


Have you ever stopped to consider that you might be confused because you're losing part of your ignorance?


But I LIKE my ignorance!! ~grins~



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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:48:23 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		There was a tower block in London called Ronan Point, which collapsed as you describe. The point im making is that although there was a pancake collapse of one side of the building, the inner core remained intact.

Im guessing the impact of the plane may have damaged the inner core in some way. Yet i think i saw a link where somone who had designed the building said any impact from an aircraft would only affect the outer walls.

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:52:39 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

But I LIKE my ignorance!! ~grins~


Hah, it's okay.  I'm sure it's only drops missing from an ocean.

I mean, seriously.  Someday, we might find out that quarks are crude approximations of what are actually smaller universes- and their interactions are governered by how the residents of these universes get along!  We know so incredibly little.. just black boxing things in an attempt to learn more.

So, no worries, we'll all probably die, still stupid in the end.  Particularly if we suffer this conspiracy junk any longer.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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