RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love

RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion

Message

Stephann -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 6:08:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bandit25 A couple of things... angelicsubbie: My advice would be to let it go. Doms aren't perfect...no one is. If he said he may have overreacted, he recognizes it and prolly will be more careful to avoid it happening again. If you think he doesn't realize just how upset you are/were, tell him. Just tell him. Talk to the man. He most likely doesn't know. stephann: I really enjoy reading your posts and, most of the time, they have some very good advice/common sense. However, in these posts you've likened a sub (perhaps,, your sub) to a child twice. Is that how you think of her? Within the confines of punishment that is. I know many doms feel that way and I don't understand that. Putting aside bratty subs or those who simply don't care, if your sub does something "wrong", does she become childlike in your eyes? Hi Bandit, thanks for the question, Actually, I positively do not think of a submissive as a child. The reason I reference that sort of interaction, is that as adults there simply is no equal to a punishment/disciplinarian relationship on this level, that I'm aware of, save for maybe military training (which I also draw from; but as this isn't a common reference point, and wouldn't be of much use to anyone who hasn't been put in physical pain for mistakes they've made.) My suggestions and methods have nothing to do with treating an adult as a child, but rather to give a fully functioning, intelligent adult goals and boundaries in a way that some relationships lack (otherwise, it's safe to say people wouldn't engage in D/s oriented relationships in the first place.) Adults perform better, when the goals are shared, clear, and rules carry teeth. If nobody was ever fined for a speeding ticket, it's unlikely speed limits would be respected. Note, too, that this is a comment on how to enforce rules already set in place (either arbitrarily or negotiated, depending on the style of relationship.) What rules are worthy of being placed, their purpose, their scope, etc are all a very different subject; I could put the question "why do we need to give submissive rules?" and I think the answers would be most interesting. Hi angelic, I'm sorry this didn't give you much help. In reading your post, I'd best just ask you; why does it matter if the punishment fits the crime, in your opinion? In all walks of our lives, we are 'unfairly' punished; from high prices on gasoline, to hidden charges on our credit cards, to being fired because 'someone' stole money from a register, so it's easier to just ditch the entire lot of employees, than figure out which one actually did it. It's a noble goal for a dominant to aspire to be 'fair.' Unfortunately, dominants are humans, they are not infallible, and it takes an enormous amount of trust on both the dominant's and submissive's parts to engage in a relationship, knowing that there will be mistakes. That it was your first punishment probably makes things more complicated; you don't have a point of reference to compare it to even. It could be that you're not sure you desire a D/s relationship to begin with. It could be you disliked that particular form of punishment. It could be you just don't trust your partner very much. It could very much be your own sense of pride getting caught in the mix. It's hard to say "I'm a strong, capable person" and "I am a humble person" at the same time, until you really think about it. The strongest people I know, are humble. I hope that's helpful. Stephan

SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 6:14:16 AM)
silence and withdrawal is the most cruel punishment i know of....just my opinion of course

Grlwithboy -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 6:18:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sublimelysensual I picked this quote out of the OP because it resonates with me. It seems like a lot of Doms nowadays are on the "punishment" bandwagon, and what I don't understand about that is this. 99% of the time, if I've done something wrong, I'm well aware of it, and always upfront about it, at times confessing things the Dom in question didn't have a clue about to begin with. I can also pretty much guarantee that any punishment He could come up with would be a veeeeery distant second place to what's going on in my head. I abhor making mistakes. I'm human, I know I make them, everyone does, but I'm truly my own harshest critic. A stern reminder, or look very quickly tells me not to do so again. As far as more major errors go, I fully expect to be punished appropriately, and won't forgive myself until that happens. But for the small stuff? Sometimes it just seems like overkill. Now with a child, sometimes you need to use overkill, they may not know what they did wrong, or the consequences of doing whatever they did. As an adult, I do know, and sticking me on my knees on rice for fifteen minutes because I forgot to pick up milk (or whatever the case may be), just seems like a waste of time and energy on both parts. I can also attest to the fact that if after being punished I'm ignored, or simply told, "you were punished because of this", and then left to my own devices, it feels as though I'm still being punished. It takes it from, "you're a good slave who made a mistake", to "you're a bad slave and not worth my time right now" in sixty seconds flat. So then not only do I have the transgression on a constant loop in my head, the whole self-doubt thing kicks in as well. That isn't to say I expect the Dom to coddle and cuddle me for an hour after the event, but at least a few minutes would be nice. So I guess what I would add is to remember you're punishing for a bad action, and after you've done so the good person is still inside and may need some attention. Just my two cents, as always.. -a Totally on board with you. Something as radical as "don't speak to me like that, I don't care for it." Or "why didn't you open the car door for me just now?" cause the kinds of behavioral adjustments I want just dandy. I'm not a "rules" girl in a huge way, though.

agirl -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 6:33:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bandit25 A couple of things... angelicsubbie: My advice would be to let it go. Doms aren't perfect...no one is. If he said he may have overreacted, he recognizes it and prolly will be more careful to avoid it happening again. If you think he doesn't realize just how upset you are/were, tell him. Just tell him. Talk to the man. He most likely doesn't know. stephann: I really enjoy reading your posts and, most of the time, they have some very good advice/common sense. However, in these posts you've likened a sub (perhaps,, your sub) to a child twice. Is that how you think of her? Within the confines of punishment that is. I know many doms feel that way and I don't understand that. Putting aside bratty subs or those who simply don't care, if your sub does something "wrong", does she become childlike in your eyes? I thought Stephann was referring to what we GIVE a loved child, not viewing someone AS a child. agirl

agirl -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 6:56:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sublimelysensual Sometimes it just seems like overkill. Now with a child, sometimes you need to use overkill, they may not know what they did wrong, or the consequences of doing whatever they did. As an adult, I do know, and sticking me on my knees on rice for fifteen minutes because I forgot to pick up milk (or whatever the case may be), just seems like a waste of time and energy on both parts. I can also attest to the fact that if after being punished I'm ignored, or simply told, "you were punished because of this", and then left to my own devices, it feels as though I'm still being punished. It takes it from, "you're a good slave who made a mistake", to "you're a bad slave and not worth my time right now" in sixty seconds flat. So then not only do I have the transgression on a constant loop in my head, the whole self-doubt thing kicks in as well. That isn't to say I expect the Dom to coddle and cuddle me for an hour after the event, but at least a few minutes would be nice. So I guess what I would add is to remember you're punishing for a bad action, and after you've done so the good person is still inside and may need some attention. Just my two cents, as always.. -a If someone doesn't know what they did wrong, or realise the consequences, child or otherwise, I don't see why overkill is necessary. It seems to me to be the LEAST likely scenario for it. agirl

catize -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 8:04:32 AM)
quote: She probably won't learn much if you spank her with a feather duster. What hurts is that it is punishment. If I placed a dominant in the position to need to punish me then I would feel the pain of failure; so a feather duster, wet noodle or whip......it is the internal pain that makes it effective.

apiercedkitty -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 8:14:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelicsubbie Great post...I find myself personally struggling to deal with punishment lately, seeing as how i got my first real punishment <well; i don't know if i can say that, but first real punishment from my boyfriend> about 2 weeks ago, and am still upset and whatnot...but i'm also very much a perfectionist. I don't think he realized at themoment just how upset i really was getting...and he stayed to comforrt me and whatnot, then thought things were all better, but mentally they weren't, and still aren't totally on par <to make this even better im going to my first spanking party with him tomorrow> I think for me part of it is that I don't feel the punishment was warranted...yes, perhaps I was out of line, but he said himself that he thinks he overreacted some, and any being out of line was simply out of concern for him.... Great post; unfortunatly it hasn't helped me at all to mentally cope with the concept of punishment; though yet again I think the issue is that the punishment didn't meet the crime, and I'm worried about that happening again.... So yeah; I think its also important to understand your sub's mental state, know just how upset she is, etc. imho, if you didn't make it clear to Him that you weren't "ok," that falls in your lap. He can't be expected to be a mind reader - and communication is vital - especially when 1 feels the issue isn't over. i think it's well within your rights to talk to Him and make it clear that you think the punishment was too harsh. He should then either debate the issue or agree with you. If he thinks it was right, you have to decide if He's going to be too harsh for you in the future. If he agrees with you, the two of you have to decide how to avoid that in the future.

bandit25 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 8:20:19 AM)
Ah, thanks for explaining. I guess I misunderstood when you talked about lectures. And I agree that goals should be shared, clear and have teeth :)

chey -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 8:33:43 AM)
Stephann this is an interesting thread, thank you for starting it. At the moment I have nothing I could add that has not been said, simply taking it all in!

taintedgypsy -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 8:40:05 AM)
This thread has given me much to think on ... I have developed some real problems with the whole punishment idea, and wonder how the hell I will be able to function in any kind of D/s relationship in the future. Can what form punishment will take durring the relationship be decided like really early on to help prevent a sub's insecurities? Is it acceptable for a sub to say "this is something that holds speacial meaning for me and can not be used as punishment it causes to much mental anguish and confusion", sought of like a hard limit I suppose? If issues with punishment have damaged trust in a previous relationship ... how do you prevent them from being carried into the next one? Just some thoughts, excuse me if they seem a little mixed, I am actually quite suprised at how much even thinking about this disturbs me.

sublimelysensual -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 8:41:44 AM)
That's part of the reason I said sometimes. I have a 6 yr old UM, if she starts to walk out into the road, yes I punish her somewhat harshly, (overkill) because the consequences if she did walk into the road (getting hit by a car) are such that I want her to remember what happened the last time she thought about doing so the next time she comes to a street. Hence what I said about overkill. I agree that it isn't always necessary. And when I talk of overkill with UMs, I mean harsher words than usual or more time in time-out. anyway, just clarifying.. -a

apiercedkitty -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 8:50:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: taintedgypsy Can what form punishment will take durring the relationship be decided like really early on to help prevent a sub's insecurities? Is it acceptable for a sub to say "this is something that holds speacial meaning for me and can not be used as punishment it causes to much mental anguish and confusion", sought of like a hard limit I suppose? If issues with punishment have damaged trust in a previous relationship ... how do you prevent them from being carried into the next one? Just some thoughts, excuse me if they seem a little mixed, I am actually quite suprised at how much even thinking about this disturbs me. Absolutely! If the sub has issues of any kind, it's his/her duty to be upfront about them. A sub's well-being starts with the sub - if they don't communicate their wants/needs/limits, they have no one to blame if the Dom steps over boundries He/She didn't know existed. Those issues should be dealt with like any other issues that have caused harm in previous relationships. First, they must be recognized and accepted. Then they must be discussed internally - meaning the person with the issues has to decide how best to handle them. Then they must be discussed with the other person in the relationship.

agirl -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 9:07:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sublimelysensual That's part of the reason I said sometimes. I have a 6 yr old UM, if she starts to walk out into the road, yes I punish her somewhat harshly, (overkill) because the consequences if she did walk into the road (getting hit by a car) are such that I want her to remember what happened the last time she thought about doing so the next time she comes to a street. Hence what I said about overkill. I agree that it isn't always necessary. And when I talk of overkill with UMs, I mean harsher words than usual or more time in time-out. anyway, just clarifying.. -a No worries, and thanks. I suspect we have different approaches. I wouldn't see that as a reason to punish, either. I wouldn't view it as naughty. agirl

Stephann -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 9:11:44 AM)
Hi gypsy, ORIGINAL: taintedgypsy This thread has given me much to think on ... I have developed some real problems with the whole punishment idea, and wonder how the hell I will be able to function in any kind of D/s relationship in the future. Can what form punishment will take durring the relationship be decided like really early on to help prevent a sub's insecurities? Sure. I would positively welcome any input a girl has to offer on the nature of punishment. I would expect, personally, that she'd trust my judgement in the end; her telling me what she feels will and won't work is invaluable. Her telling me what she will or will not tolerate-you-bastard-fuck probably won't fly so high. Is it acceptable for a sub to say "this is something that holds speacial meaning for me and can not be used as punishment it causes to much mental anguish and confusion", sought of like a hard limit I suppose? Not only acceptable, but important to share. Be prepared to explain the why's and how's, though. Again, you're not giving dry-cleaning instructions on the amount of starch here; these are going to be events and feelings that sharing with your dominant could make the difference between a healthy relationship, and sheer terror for you both. I know I certainly don't relish the prospect of a catatonic miserable fetus curled slave for hours and days on end. If issues with punishment have damaged trust in a previous relationship ... how do you prevent them from being carried into the next one? You learn to trust the new man. You both discuss ways to manage punishment in a way that suits you both; something you can trust him with, something that he feels will be effective. Just some thoughts, excuse me if they seem a little mixed, I am actually quite suprised at how much even thinking about this disturbs me. I think the real key here, though, is that while this article is focused on punishment; not every couple needs/wants/desires a punishment element to their dynamic. I would suggest it's worth trying to figure, first, would you be happy without that element? Second, is it really the punishment you have an issue with, or is it trust issues that you haven't resolved in your past relationships? Hope that's something to chew on. For others with kind words, I'm most grateful. Thanks! Stephan

daddysliloneds -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 10:32:47 AM)
and then there's people with my line of thinking, which is, i'm a big girl and he's a big boy and if there comes a time in the relationship where he feels that i need to be punished, then the relationship is already on it's way to being over. punishment to me, is not a necessary element to making a 'good relationship' better or even to make a relationship work at all.

GhitaAmati -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 10:34:17 AM)
my non usual caveat: I have no idea if anything I am about to say will make sense. I havent slept in a while, nor have I had coffee or even a glass of ice water in which to soak my head. I would like to make a comment while its in my mind and maybe tomorrow I will come back and make sense of it. ----------- Punishment: While I understand everyone has different ideas about what it is and the reasons behind it, Ive often wondered, if you really have to punish so often that you can write an essay on it....is the realtionship really working out all that well? Ok, so sure, my Sir will occasionally correct me, or ask me to do something a different way, but to do something to actually need punishment? Why would I? If I really did screw something up, I can normally dish the punishment out on myself a whole lot better than Sir ever could or would....

celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 10:49:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysliloneds punishment to me, is not a necessary element to making a 'good relationship' better or even to make a relationship work at all. For many relationships, punishment is not a necessary element. For others, it is. The concept of punishment is necessary in a TPE dynamic, however. Punishment is the negative consequence that is laid down for non-compliance with whatever rules are established by the dominant. Punishment is part of what makes that dynamic work by setting up the basic exchange of power. The only consistent requirement for a good relationship is good communication on both sides about what they want in the relationship.

GhitaAmati -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 10:57:28 AM)
quote: The concept of punishment is necessary in a TPE dynamic quote: Punishment is part of what makes that dynamic work by setting up the basic exchange of power. Are you saying that because my Sir doesnt punish me we dont have a TPE dynamic? Now thats just screwy. Sir sets rules, I follow them, if I didnt there wouldnt be any point to me being in the relationship. Punishment does not "set up" the basic exchange of power, sure punishment can be a "way" of exchanging power, but it doesnt have to be present for the dynamic to work.

Stephann -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 11:07:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati my non usual caveat: I have no idea if anything I am about to say will make sense. I havent slept in a while, nor have I had coffee or even a glass of ice water in which to soak my head. I would like to make a comment while its in my mind and maybe tomorrow I will come back and make sense of it. ----------- Punishment: While I understand everyone has different ideas about what it is and the reasons behind it, Ive often wondered, if you really have to punish so often that you can write an essay on it....is the realtionship really working out all that well? Ok, so sure, my Sir will occasionally correct me, or ask me to do something a different way, but to do something to actually need punishment? Why would I? If I really did screw something up, I can normally dish the punishment out on myself a whole lot better than Sir ever could or would.... Funny, the things we do, when we have insomnia. Actually, I don't really punish that often. I don't enjoy it, as I mentioned, and I don't make it a focal point of my relationships. Many people equate Discipline with Punishment, and I actually didn't want to hijack (or see made into more of a feeding frenzy) of the AKAbarbarian thread on resentment. So, here was what I came up with. I'm totally cool with folks who don't use 'formal' punishment. Please read my disclaimer at the beginning of this thread, and remember this was just typing practice [;)] And, more seriously, some people dig punishment in their relationships. This was just intended as an overall view of how I can see it work. We certainly have resident experts here who can and do handle the topic with greater skill and ability than I. Stephan

GhitaAmati -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 11:14:19 AM)
Stephann.... see I knew I should have tried to think more on how I worded anything...wasnt trying to say anything against what you wrote, actually thought it was a rather well thought out post...only trying to add another side to the discussion....

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.03125