RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love

RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (Full Version)

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celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 12:45:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cedwen It takes time to train a sub properly Can take a year or more ? If you're lucky, training a slave takes a lifetime.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 12:50:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit An example scenario would be someone forgetting to fold the socks for the sock drawer. A corrective punishment would be making them fold and refold the socks several times. Actually, this could be either corrective or punitive. If you made them do it 100 times or more, that's probably more of a punitive situation. My question was geared towards Padraig's distinction between the corrective and punitive scenarios, and whether there was an intrinsic difference beyond the motivation.

Stephann -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 4:01:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cedwen It takes time to train a sub properly Can take a year or more ? Trust is as portent as love in a fulltime Domme sub realationship. A contract or an agreement that changes and devlop over time between the Domme and the sub. BUT as the training progresses so does the intensity of the disipline. My sub trusted me as well as loved me. !8 months into the rlationship. My sub trusted me to waive the contract describing the punishment and its limits. Completely trusting me now. There is a no mercy agreement. I decide by observation and my know what my sub can take He is always unsure Plus the amount he can take without permanent damage varies. At this stage in our relationship when sub thinks he can take no more. I go beyond that limit Stopping when I deem he has had enough. But once I stop or finnish despite the yelling and screaming for me to stop. Momnts after I am finnished he begs for more. But I know what the real limit is He does not To go futher would be beyond the bounds of submission Ms Cedwen Hi there, In the context of what I outlined, a submissive asking for 'more' would sggest my efforts at discipline have failed. This hasn't been a discussion of play, but of encouraging the submissive to perform better. Begging for more, would be a sign to expect the same actions to punish him in the first place. Stephan

Stephann -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 4:17:06 AM)
Hi Padriag, and thank you for your insight. I agree with most of what you've said. I'd only like to clarify that while I don't feel any struggle from my own perspective in punishment, as I see it as taking steps to improve the situation and our relationship; but I -do- struggle from an empathic perspective. It's simply painful to watch someone I care about struggle with a problem or goal; the fact that it's on the heels of -my- goals and expectations adds an extra kick; not from uncertainty, or self-doubt, but from simply feeling for the submissive and her struggle. My strong caution against 'punitive' punishment, draws from the emotional damage it can cause. It's setting a combative stage, making it 'you vs your sub'. I can't think of anyone with more power to destroy another person emotionally, than a dominant can to their submissive. Regards, Stephan

Padriag -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 7:56:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit An example scenario would be someone forgetting to fold the socks for the sock drawer. A corrective punishment would be making them fold and refold the socks several times. Actually, this could be either corrective or punitive. If you made them do it 100 times or more, that's probably more of a punitive situation. My question was geared towards Padraig's distinction between the corrective and punitive scenarios, and whether there was an intrinsic difference beyond the motivation. And I wrote this detailed reply last night to that very question only to have my wireless connection go out due to the electrical storm and welll... I gave up and went to bed. I'll try to recap what I had written. I think the clearest distinction that can be seen is in the goals of either form of punishment. Someone seeking punitive punishment is engaging in a form of revenge seeking behavior, they will not be satisfied until that results in the visible infliction of pain... whether that comes from inflicting visible pain, emotional pain, or pain resultant from the removal of various freedoms. In short, punitive punishment is ultimately about hurting the other person. Note that actually correcting the behavior that resulted in the punitive punishment is not a primary goal and may not be a goal at all. This applies whether we are discussing BDSM scenarios or judicial systems worldwide. Corrective punishment has as its primary goal correcting the original behavior, and it is not satisfied until that correction occurs. Whether this involves pain or not is only relevant if the application of pain, the removal of freedoms, etc. is effective in causing the corrective change to occur. In other words, corrective punishment can take many more forms because it does not seek to cause pain, and is thus not limited to methods that result in that. As for motivations differing, punitive punishment satisfies the emotional drives we all have... the anger and/or hurt we may feel, the desire for revenge, a sense of balance being restored (because the other has suffered in some way similar to how we have suffered... thus making us "equal" again). Corrective punishment is not interested in assuaging these emotional drives, its about changing an undesirable behavior so that it does not occur again. That can be hard for some to accept. Imagine a drunk driver who killed an entire school bus full of children, it would be very easy to imagine a huge public outcry for the guy to be lynched! Not so easy to imagine the guy being sent to rehab and counseling for his drinking problem with his release being conditional on the correction of the behavior, but without any punitive measure. In fact, were that to happen, many people would be very upset, particularly the parents of those children. For them, they'd want blood... they'd want that sense of "balance" to be restored, to know and more importantly feel, that this person had in some way suffered as much as they. Applying all this to this lifestyle it illustrates another reason why dominants need to be in control of themselves. We all, as human beings, have that drive for revenge to some degree and this is magnified when we are angry. A submissive does something that hurts or upsets us, there is a natural impulse to want to hurt them in return in order to restore that feeling of balance. However, because we should not be seeking to harm those in our care, but we should be seeking to correct and improve, its important for us to keep any revenge seeking behavior in check. Its important for us to use corrective measures rather than punitive measures. In other words, as dominants we have to be in control of ourselves enough to let go of those raw emotional drives, and instead do what's best for the relationship. For those of us who can and do, we earn the respect of submissives because of it, we earn their trust.

Padriag -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 8:14:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann My strong caution against 'punitive' punishment, draws from the emotional damage it can cause. It's setting a combative stage, making it 'you vs your sub'. I can't think of anyone with more power to destroy another person emotionally, than a dominant can to their submissive. That's the problem with punitive punishment, its ultimate goal is to do damage and it is not satisfied until that occurs. Not really something most of us want for someone we care about. The conundrum about it is that sometimes corrective punishment is not effective without a punitive element. Here be start venturing into more extreme cases where generally you are dealing with someone with a strong motivation not to change, the punitive element provides a stronger motivation too change. That, however, is not an argument for the indiscriminate use of punitive measures, rather an acknowledgement that in some cases it can be necessary... but only in some cases. Its around these "some cases" that a great deal of debate has raged in the psychological community, over exactly when, why and how it is necessary or effective and to what degree and whether alternatives exist. My advice to those within thsi lifestyle is that in the majority of cases punitive measures are not necessary and corrective measures are the better route. Going back to Rabbit's sock example, it would be corrective provided the goal were to correct the behavior by teaching the correct way to fold the socks. In this case whether that took 10 tries or 100 or even 500 would be immaterial, it isn't about the number of attempts it takes but rather about when the goal of correction is achieved. If that happens after 10 tries, that's as satisfactory as if it takes 500 tries. If it were punitive, then the goal would be excessive repetitions to the point of causing pain (hand cramps, mental anguish, etc.) and wouldn't be satisfied until the 100 mark was achieved, regardless of whether or not this successfully corrected the behavior. Thus CL was correct, Rabbit's example could be punitive or corrective, depending on how it was applied and the goal of the "punisher".

apiercedkitty -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 8:21:07 AM)
Using fast reply - this is kind of a general reply to the whole thread... no matter the difference between punishments, i'd much rather try NOT to displease Master so that He felt the need to punish me - for whatever reason. i would much rather He spend His time with me enjoying what we're doing. i'm not trying to insult anyone or belittle the different types of punishments - cuz i've experienced both corrective and punitive (not with Master - with a previous Dom)... just giving my 2 cents on punishment in general.

Padriag -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 8:27:36 AM)
A valid point Pierced, and by the by, I'd rather spend my time enjoying a slave than punishing as well. Correcting behavior is not something I particularly enjoy, it can consume a lot of time and energy on my part... time and energy I'd rather spend enjoying myself. If a slave requires too much correction, then I'm likely to dismiss her for that very reason. It also raises another point as to why corrective punishments are ultimately the better route, if behaviors are corrected, they will not require further effort later which in turn frees time and energy to be spent on other more enjoyable activities.

KnightofMists -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 9:23:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 The concept of punishment is necessary in a TPE dynamic, however. Punishment is the negative consequence that is laid down for non-compliance with whatever rules are established by the dominant. Punishment is part of what makes that dynamic work by setting up the basic exchange of power. I agree that Punishment is indeed a negative consequence. But as you said, it is a negative consequence that is a penalty or retribution upon one person by another. However, not all Negative Consequences will be punishments. In other words, ones actions can result in a negative outcome without it being applied by another. Punishment is a Direct application of Negative Consequnces from one person to another. However, within D/s or M/s relationships, alot of indirect applicaiton of negative Consequences can occur. A slave that fails to complete a task may only recieve the knowledge that the Master is Disappointed in the results. The Master need not do anything directly and need not apply any specific punishment. But, yet the negative consequences exists and there is no actual punishment. Can a M/s relationship function without punishment, a Direct application of Negative Consequnces by the Master to the slave, Yes. There is also the question of Responsibility for one's actions and the consequences of those actions. As indicated, Punishment is a penalty or retribution upon one person by another. The question becomes, if one knowingly and willfuly makes a choice of action that will result in the end of the relationship. Is it actually punishement when the Master ends the relationships. As I said before, within my relationships, a slave that willful disobeys will result in the end of the relationship. It is a negative consequence for the relationship. However, In my dynamic, the slaves make a continually choice to be in the relationship. There choice to wilfully disobey is a choice to end it. Since it is their choice, it is not a question of penalty or retribution for their actions. In fact, because they choose to end it by Wilful disobedience, their is no opportunity for me to apply penalty or retribution. I am a strong believer that functional and healthy relaitonships stay together by the mutual choice of those in the relationship. That consent is the rock bed of the relationship. Once consent is removed, the ability of a one (the Master) to apply penalty or retribution is morally removed. Within my M/s dynamic, Punishment is not a part of the dynamic. I do not apply penalty or retribution. I do however, apply a responsiblity for ones choices. That these choices will be either Positive or Negative consequences. Within my dynamics, I expect each person to make choices that is for the enhancement of the whole, positive consequences for the relationship. However, choices do occur that result in negative consequences. Instead of apply penalty or retribution, Instead I seek to facilate learning and growth from what occurred to allow a change of choice/behavior in the future. It is our mutual commitment to what I call a Power Enhancement Relationship that focuses us on our personal responsibilities to make choices that promote positive consequences for our relationship and avoid the negative consequences. Therefore, in essense, your idea that Punishment is a neccesary requirement for TPE style relationships is Dead wrong. For many, punishment is a part of the dynamic and for others it is not a requirement. In many relationships there is no need to apply penalty or retribution by the Master to the slave for choices made. Instead they is a focus on understanding why the choice was wrong and improving the choice in the future. That is not to say that those who engage in punishment don't also focus on understanding why the choice is wrong and improving the choice. It only means that some relationships just don't engage in penalty/retribution situations. Lastly, Your statement "Punishment is part of what makes that dynamic work by setting up the basic exchange of power." is what is fundamental wrong. In essense you are stating TPE is based on Coersion Power. That the exchange dynamic can't exist without it. However, there is other basis to TPE relationships that is not Coersion. Such as Referent Power. In many cases the power of a TPE comes from a few different sources. French and Raven back in the 60's put forward some pretty good ideas on Power, it would be worth it for a person that is interested in TPE to look into it.

Stephann -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 9:24:54 AM)
I'll only add that while there is value in a dominant expressing his feelings, I don't believe that applying punitive punishment (in this context) is ever healthy or wise. I think every scenario you could make a case for the use of punitive punishment, a better case could be built for more constructive punishment and emotional release. This being said, I think you're quite right, in that our society places a premium on revenge-as-justice, and that it can be difficult to separate that revenge from actual constructive correction. Regards, Stephan

KnightofMists -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 9:59:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit In the definition presented by behavorial science and operant conditioning, punishment is negative reinforcement in which one uses a negative stimuli to reinforce a desired behavior. key words..... "USES a negative stimmuli to reinforce a desired behavior" quote: Just because the negative stimuli was X (an expression of disapointment) and not Y (corporeal punishment or a time-out) doesnt change the fact that it follows under the scope of the definition of punishment as used in behavior modifcaiton. an expression of disappointment does not equate automatically to using Disappointment to change behavior. The fact is... the intrinsic motivation of a person within a healthy relationship is to see the other person happy and not sad. Therefore, a individual will naturally seek to adjust their own behavior by the stimuli they perceive. So... are we punishing ourselves each and everytime we see a negative stimuli. No we just adjust our behavior to achieve our motivation. If my motivation was to show the disappointment to cultivate a change in behavior for the desired one of another person. Then many would consider it punishement. However, many don't actually consciously show disappointment with the intent to change the desired behavior of the one that disappointed them. It come back down to the motivation of why one is behaving the way they do. Within my dynamic... I count on the Intrinsic Motivation of my slaves. Their internal desire, want, drive and need to please me is all that I need. It is this motivataion that I use. The key was to establish this motivation in the first place. For me.. I openly shared who I was with them. They learn me inside and out. What they learned about me was what inspired their submission. Therefore, my expressions of emotions and thought is something that they need to appreciate if they are fullfilling their own intrinsic motivations. Fulfiling this motivaiton is central to their own happiness. So... I wanted to punish them or cause retribution for their poor behavior... the best would be to withhold my emotions and thougths to them. All emotions and thoughts .. good or bad. Submissives and Slaves have a deep Intrinsic motivation.... In a my opinion, A Dominant and Master that appreciates this ... will stop messing around with the surface punishment ideals and seek to earn and enjoy the motivations of the Submissive/Slave. That is not to say that punishment will not be apart of the relationship, but the Dominant/Master will understand that the Power dynamic is at the motivational level and punishements only seek to reinforce that motivation.. not earn or make it.

Padriag -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 10:22:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann I'll only add that while there is value in a dominant expressing his feelings, I don't believe that applying punitive punishment (in this context) is ever healthy or wise. Good point and if you don't mind I'll use it to segue into another example of punitive vs corrective. Suppose a slave did something that very much upset their master. Maybe she cheated, maybe she got angry and crashed his old pick up truck or ran over his dog (okay so I was watching CMT earlier [8D]). Point is that it emotionally hurt the dominant. He has a choice in how he expresses that. He could scream at her, cuss her, and in the process devalue her, verbally attack her, etc. And while that would be an expression of his feelings (hurt and anger) it would also be destructive. It would also be punitive punishment. Its a form of punishment because his behavior would be an averse stimulus to her, that qualifies it as a punishment. And because the behavior seeks to attack and harm her, that makes it punitive. And as we've already discussed, that'd be a bad idea. Option B would be to sit her down and talk to her. Explain to her that what she did hurt him and why. Explain why it displeased him, what was wrong about her behavior and what she should have done instead, what he expects her behavior to be. Again, this still qualifies as punishment. For those scratching their heads wondering why, its because his disappointment is still going to upset her... and that is still an averse stimulus which makes it a punishment. But, in this case his behavior is aimed at correcting her behavior, establishing not only what she did wrong but what she should have done, what she should correct to. That makes it corrective punishment. quote: This being said, I think you're quite right, in that our society places a premium on revenge-as-justice, and that it can be difficult to separate that revenge from actual constructive correction. There is a lot of history behind that unfortunate fact. For much of human history law was dispensed by family heads or tribal leaders who were more concerned about restoring social order by maintaining balance. They had to deal first and foremost with the raw emotions of the group... literally, the mob ruled. Eventually this practice started becoming formalized and one early example was the practice of weregild. Weregild was a fine paid by one family or person to another family or person as compensation for some injury done. That is, say I kidnapped and raped your daughter... there was a fine for that, weregild. You or your family could demand weregild for the "injury" I'd done, and provided I paid it that was often the end of the matter. I think anyone giving that more than a moment's thought can see a few immediate flaws with the system. Coincedentally it is part of the historical precedence for the modern practice of paying fines. Think about that next time you get a parking ticket. Since who we are and what we do in this lifestyle is directly influenced by all those larger cultural beliefs and practices we grew up with, its not surprising that punitive practices emerge and are expressed within this lifestyle. The idea of punitive and retributive practices as punishment are so deeply ingrained in some they can't fathom any other method or concept of punishment. That very problem in our penal system is exactly what prompted Nietzsche to observe that "the problem with punishment is that it pollutes more than the crime." That's exactly what punitive measures do when there is no corrective element present.

MadRabbit -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 10:34:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit An example scenario would be someone forgetting to fold the socks for the sock drawer. A corrective punishment would be making them fold and refold the socks several times. Actually, this could be either corrective or punitive. If you made them do it 100 times or more, that's probably more of a punitive situation. My question was geared towards Padraig's distinction between the corrective and punitive scenarios, and whether there was an intrinsic difference beyond the motivation. And I wrote this detailed reply last night to that very question only to have my wireless connection go out due to the electrical storm and welll... I gave up and went to bed. I'll try to recap what I had written. I think the clearest distinction that can be seen is in the goals of either form of punishment. Someone seeking punitive punishment is engaging in a form of revenge seeking behavior, they will not be satisfied until that results in the visible infliction of pain... whether that comes from inflicting visible pain, emotional pain, or pain resultant from the removal of various freedoms. In short, punitive punishment is ultimately about hurting the other person. Note that actually correcting the behavior that resulted in the punitive punishment is not a primary goal and may not be a goal at all. This applies whether we are discussing BDSM scenarios or judicial systems worldwide. Corrective punishment has as its primary goal correcting the original behavior, and it is not satisfied until that correction occurs. Whether this involves pain or not is only relevant if the application of pain, the removal of freedoms, etc. is effective in causing the corrective change to occur. In other words, corrective punishment can take many more forms because it does not seek to cause pain, and is thus not limited to methods that result in that. As for motivations differing, punitive punishment satisfies the emotional drives we all have... the anger and/or hurt we may feel, the desire for revenge, a sense of balance being restored (because the other has suffered in some way similar to how we have suffered... thus making us "equal" again). Corrective punishment is not interested in assuaging these emotional drives, its about changing an undesirable behavior so that it does not occur again. That can be hard for some to accept. Imagine a drunk driver who killed an entire school bus full of children, it would be very easy to imagine a huge public outcry for the guy to be lynched! Not so easy to imagine the guy being sent to rehab and counseling for his drinking problem with his release being conditional on the correction of the behavior, but without any punitive measure. In fact, were that to happen, many people would be very upset, particularly the parents of those children. For them, they'd want blood... they'd want that sense of "balance" to be restored, to know and more importantly feel, that this person had in some way suffered as much as they. Applying all this to this lifestyle it illustrates another reason why dominants need to be in control of themselves. We all, as human beings, have that drive for revenge to some degree and this is magnified when we are angry. A submissive does something that hurts or upsets us, there is a natural impulse to want to hurt them in return in order to restore that feeling of balance. However, because we should not be seeking to harm those in our care, but we should be seeking to correct and improve, its important for us to keep any revenge seeking behavior in check. Its important for us to use corrective measures rather than punitive measures. In other words, as dominants we have to be in control of ourselves enough to let go of those raw emotional drives, and instead do what's best for the relationship. For those of us who can and do, we earn the respect of submissives because of it, we earn their trust. Aww okay...I get it now.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 10:43:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists Within my M/s dynamic, Punishment is not a part of the dynamic. I do not apply penalty or retribution. I do however, apply a responsiblity for ones choices. That these choices will be either Positive or Negative consequences. Working on the basis that Negative Consequence is equivalent to Aversive Stimulus, if you are consciously involved in the application of said stimulus, how is that not a punishment if in response to "Negative" behavior? Also, I want to reiterate that it is the CONCEPT of punishment that I consider essential. Whether a dominant does or does not punish--or reward--is a choice that is entirely within his purview. To my mind, it goes hand in hand with the paradox of trust: we only trust those who can hurt us.

MadRabbit -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 10:43:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists Within my M/s dynamic, Punishment is not a part of the dynamic. I do not apply penalty or retribution. I do however, apply a responsiblity for ones choices. That these choices will be either Positive or Negative consequences. Within my dynamics, I expect each person to make choices that is for the enhancement of the whole, positive consequences for the relationship. However, choices do occur that result in negative consequences. Instead of apply penalty or retribution, Instead I seek to facilate learning and growth from what occurred to allow a change of choice/behavior in the future. It is our mutual commitment to what I call a Power Enhancement Relationship that focuses us on our personal responsibilities to make choices that promote positive consequences for our relationship and avoid the negative consequences. This seems somewhat semantical to me in a sense, since the concepts of Punishment and Reward can be defined as Negative and Positive consequences. For example, the penalty and retribution of receiving a speeding ticket. One could view it in the light of "You have broken the law and now this is your pentalty. Pay up!" Or... One can view it in the light of "You have made a personal choice to break the law, endangering the lives of others with your reckless driving. This is your Negative Consequence for the action. Now please refrain from speeding so this Negative Consequence doesnt occur and you can enjoy the Positive Consequence of not having to pay tickets."

KnightofMists -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 10:49:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag He could scream at her, cuss her, and in the process devalue her, verbally attack her, etc. And while that would be an expression of his feelings (hurt and anger) it would also be destructive. It would also be punitive punishment. Its a form of punishment because his behavior would be an averse stimulus to her, that qualifies it as a punishment. And because the behavior seeks to attack and harm her, that makes it punitive. And as we've already discussed, that'd be a bad idea. Option B would be to sit her down and talk to her. Explain to her that what she did hurt him and why. Explain why it displeased him, what was wrong about her behavior and what she should have done instead, what he expects her behavior to be. Again, this still qualifies as punishment. For those scratching their heads wondering why, its because his disappointment is still going to upset her... and that is still an averse stimulus which makes it a punishment. But, in this case his behavior is aimed at correcting her behavior, establishing not only what she did wrong but what she should have done, what she should correct to. That makes it corrective punishment. This has become a debate about semantics. Punishement in of it self is rather clearly defined... However.. adding the qualifiers modifies the definitions. The first example only shows behavior... the intent of the behavior is another thing all together. He yells and screams.. an obvious Negative Consequence that is tied to her behaviors/choices. The Master choice to yell and scream doesn't become punitive without intent in my opinion. Other wise... it's just negative consequences. If the Master has intent to yell and scream at the Slave because of the what the Slave has done.. then I would agree it punishment. Also, I would say all punishment is punitive. Which is simply inflicting, aiming at or involving someone in punishment. the second example is not punishment that all.. but still negative consequnces. Her behavior resulted in some negative emotions of the Master and as such.. he makes and desire to correct the behavior. Correction is not Punishment. Correction is showing how to do something right while using something wrong as a reference point. Using words like Punitive and Correction to Modifiy Punishment is no different than using Hard and Soft to modifiy Limits. I personally prefer to avoid using labels and words that can can give mixed emotions. Punishment has often an intense negative emotions tied to it. However, when one wish to instill correction... negative emotions are not very useful to teach or guide some on how to do something right. They are often dealing with enough emotions becuase they did something wrong. One need not add to the emotional baggage by tying correction as an act of punishment. Correction and Punishment are two very different words in my life.

KnightofMists -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 11:00:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists Within my M/s dynamic, Punishment is not a part of the dynamic. I do not apply penalty or retribution. I do however, apply a responsiblity for ones choices. That these choices will be either Positive or Negative consequences. Within my dynamics, I expect each person to make choices that is for the enhancement of the whole, positive consequences for the relationship. However, choices do occur that result in negative consequences. Instead of apply penalty or retribution, Instead I seek to facilate learning and growth from what occurred to allow a change of choice/behavior in the future. It is our mutual commitment to what I call a Power Enhancement Relationship that focuses us on our personal responsibilities to make choices that promote positive consequences for our relationship and avoid the negative consequences. This seems somewhat semantical to me in a sense, since the concepts of Punishment and Reward can be defined as Negative and Positive consequences. For example, the penalty and retribution of receiving a speeding ticket. One could view it in the light of "You have broken the law and now this is your pentalty. Pay up!" Or... One can view it in the light of "You have made a personal choice to break the law, endangering the lives of others with your reckless driving. This is your Negative Consequence for the action. Now please refrain from speeding so this Negative Consequence doesnt occur and you can enjoy the Positive Consequence of not having to pay tickets." yes it is.. but viewing a intimate relationship dynamic and pulling it out to a social dynamic is comparing fruits and vegetables. The emotional connection within an intimate relationship is far stronger of a bond than people in general has with society. Hence the phrase "Blood is thicker than Water" Due to the weaker bond that often exists between the individual and society.. society has resorted to Punishment as a means to instill appropriate behavior on society at large. However, since the bond between intimate partners are much stronger. Punishment is not often needed. The actual motiviation of a person contributed to the other's happiness and well-being will often offset the need/want of punishment in the dynamic. It is my premise.. the stronger the bond within the relationship.. the less Need for punishment since the internal motivations will actually propel individuals towards positive choices over the negative choices. This is not to say that some relationship dyanmics will not Want to have punishment within their relationship. But their is a stark difference between Need and Want.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 11:01:46 AM)
In the interests of clarifying my position vis-a-vis punishment, let me state that I am using the term as it generally applies to theories of Operant Conditioning: Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning quote: * Reinforcement is a consequence that causes a behavior to occur with greater frequency. * Punishment is a consequence that causes a behavior to occur with less frequency. * Extinction is the lack of any consequence following a response. When a response is inconsequential, producing neither favorable nor unfavorable consequences, it will occur with less frequency. In my view of M/s dynamics and TPE, the dominant is one who makes choices and decisions about which behaviors to encourage and which behaviors to discourage. The foundations for that pattern of choices and decisions will naturally vary according to the particular mindset, background, and goals of the people involved in the relationship, but the constant I have observed in all such relationships is that the dominant resides at the locus of decision-making.

breatheasone -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 11:08:56 AM)
Punishment wouldn't really be all that effective on me, it would just piss me off ...however Master can choose to deal with me however He pleases. I guess He would opt for doing something that would actually yield results though...LOL.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 11:15:08 AM)
The key here is "yield results" Keep in mind, I adhere to a very simple and rather black-and-white view of punishment and reinforcement. If Master's actions encourage behavior on your part, they are reinforcement. If they discourage behavior, they are punishment. Everything after that is a question of style.

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