RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (Full Version)

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ExSteelAgain -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 12:07:02 PM)

Our philosophy of punishment is often the result of what type relationship we are in as we conceive and voice an opinion. Every Dom is going to answer this question from his own perspective of his relationship and the way he approaches problems. Some Doms view themselves as an anthropomorphic representation of the sun with a Ptolemaic geocentrism. Others of us who arrived after Galileo may not want to punish quite as much since we know it is more of a balance of planets going around the relationship.

I want the sub to find heaven in the relationship versus the relationship being a hell she has to endure with my punishments in order to reach a heaven like future that I tell her will happen. I don’t want a slave who is a law abider as the result of a medieval matrix waiting to receive my whipping like she is a prisoner in the tower. People are complicated and impressive business. Perfectibility may come to her without her becoming an image of me. She may be able to enter perfect city without me running behind her with a whip. The whip is going to be preserved to help her see deep colors, reach out with her hand to Never Never land and awake next to me afterwards.



MadRabbit -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 12:12:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

quote:

The concept of punishment is necessary in a TPE dynamic

quote:

Punishment is part of what makes that dynamic work by setting up the basic exchange of power.



Are you saying that because my Sir doesnt punish me we dont have a TPE dynamic? Now thats just screwy.

Sir sets rules, I follow them, if I didnt there wouldnt be any point to me being in the relationship. Punishment does not "set up" the basic exchange of power, sure punishment can be a "way" of exchanging power, but it doesnt have to be present for the dynamic to work.


Hypothetically, if you were to one day decide to break all the rules, what were your Sir do?

Sure, punishment and discipline isnt a necessary element in a D/S relationship if X does Y and always equals Z, but the margin of human error tends to make that viewpoint a bit unpractical.

If everyone followed the speed limit, there would be no need for speeding tickets. If no one commited murder, there would be no need for jail sentences for murders.

I, however, doubt the argument that "We're all grown adults who can follow the rules so there really is no need for speeding tickets." would be taken very seriously by the government.

If one follows the rules all time, then there certainly is no need for punishment or nor will they be punished, but that in no way whatsoever will remove the precence of consequences.

The discernment I constantly see in these threads regarding behavior modifications seems to mostly come from a narrow minded view of punishment. We tend to associate "punishment" in a D/S and M/S sense with paddles, crops, and the corpeal.

In the definition presented by behavorial science and operant conditioning, punishment is negative reinforcement in which one uses a negative stimuli to reinforce a desired behavior.

From that perspective, "punishment" has quite a large scope, ranging from the corporeal to a simple show of disapointment or speaking in a negative tone of voice.

If you were to forget to wash the dishes, would your Sir come to you and express his disapointment, reminding you the dishes havent been washed, and tell you to do them?

If so, then you have been "punished" since you engaged in a bad behavior and he used a negative stimuli to correct that behavior.

Just because the negative stimuli was X (an expression of disapointment) and not Y (corporeal punishment or a time-out) doesnt change the fact that it follows under the scope of the definition of punishment as used in behavior modifcaiton.

To say that punishment isnt part of your dynamic would mean that if you were to forget to wash the dishes, he would do absolutely nothing in the forms of correcting that behavior with negative reinforcement and allow the dishes to go unwashed.

I would agree that the use of negative reinforcement isnt necessary if we talking about two robots with flawless programming working in a linear model, but given that we are talking about human beings, I would say CelticLords statement is quite accurate.



Stephann -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 12:24:03 PM)

Hi folks,

I think the question isn't one of 'if' there is punishment, but rather is a structured system for punishment in place.  I use a pretty basic model.  Ghita and others seem to prefer not to have a clearly defined model.  I'm sure there's several folks with more strict and rigid forms.

Regards,

Stephan



celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 12:30:35 PM)

I distinguish between the concept and the act.  The power exchange lies in the potential of what one MIGHT do, depending on the choices he or she makes.

Effective punishments are those used rarely if ever.  Thus, can you and Sir have a TPE relationship without you ever being punished directly?  Absolutely.  Ideally, that's exactly what should happen.



GhitaAmati -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 12:55:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Hypothetically, if you were to one day decide to break all the rules, what were your Sir do?



leave

quote:


If one follows the rules all time, then there certainly is no need for punishment or nor will they be punished, but that in no way whatsoever will remove the precence of consequences.


Ok, now that I woke up a bit and thought more, I will conceed that just because he doesnt punish, in no way lessens the fact that he "could" punish.....

quote:


If you were to forget to wash the dishes, would your Sir come to you and express his disapointment, reminding you the dishes havent been washed, and tell you to do them?


nope, he'd probably go hunt down the paper plates and not say anything to me

quote:


To say that punishment isnt part of your dynamic would mean that if you were to forget to wash the dishes, he would do absolutely nothing in the forms of correcting that behavior with negative reinforcement and allow the dishes to go unwashed.


yea see...washing dishes probably wasnt the best analogy, but I see where you are going with it. Dishes.....yea, I dont do them generally 3 or 4 nights a week, Sir could care less...sometimes he does the dishes if I dont.....If there ever was something that he generally felt disappointment over, Im sure he would say something to me. If I ever came to a point where I willfully chose to disobey a direct order, the relationship would be over. That in itself would be a punishment I suppose. I think the difference comes in the fact that we dont have very many "direct orders"......Sir expects the house to stay in a generally non-white trash manner....as long as I keep the grass low enough we dont lose the boat and there is at least a small walking path from the front door to the couch...he's happy....

please read some small amount of sarcasm in that...not alot, but a small bit....



MadRabbit -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 1:31:33 PM)

Well, we're basically on the same page.

The point is "consequence" (I am using that as a substitute for punishment) does play a fundamental part in authority and power exchange (as well as in many aspects of our daily life).

I could, for example, want my slave to correct her behavior of not wearing sunblock at the beach. To do this, I can simply do absolutely nothing and allow for the natural consequences to correct the behavior for me. She doesnt wear sunblock and as a result, the bad sunburn that results applys the punishment for me.

Just because there isnt a formal system of punishment or the punishments arent ones we are aware of being punishments doesnt mean the concept still isnt apart of it and working.

I have yet to find a dynamic that didnt have any contigencies...even if the only contigency in place for keeping someone obedient is simply "Obey or I will leave".





celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 3:08:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I have yet to find a dynamic that didnt have any contigencies...even if the only contigency in place for keeping someone obedient is simply "Obey or I will leave".


In my constant quest for simplification, I am reminded of Sean Connery's final line in "The Untouchables":

"What are you prepared to do?"

To me, that sums it up.  What are you willing to do to have the life, lifestyle, and life partners you desire?

(ok, I confess, there's also this fetish I have for dragging movie lines in kicking and screaming! [;)])



celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 3:19:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
In the definition presented by behavorial science and operant conditioning, punishment is negative reinforcement in which one uses a negative stimuli to reinforce a desired behavior.


Point of clarification and anal retentiveness only:

"Negative reinforcement" is the removal of an "aversive stimulus" (something unpleasant) in response to a particular behavior pattern.  "Positive reinforcement" is the application of a favorable stimulus (something pleasant) in response to a particular behavior pattern.

"Punishment" can take two forms:  "Positive punishment" is the application of an aversive stimulus (e.g., spanking); "negative punishment" is the withdrawal of a positive stimulus (e.g., no orgasms/sex/chocolate for a week).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning






Padriag -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 6:32:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

The discernment I constantly see in these threads regarding behavior modifications seems to mostly come from a narrow minded view of punishment. We tend to associate "punishment" in a D/S and M/S sense with paddles, crops, and the corpeal.

What I've observed is that many associate punishment with its more punative forms, literally a form of revenge.  Its a way of thinking that also infects many legal and judicial systems.  Essentially,"you did something I/we don't like, so I/we am going to take revenge/get even for it," which reminds me very much of the old concept of weregild.  There is little or no element of correction involved, and that is pretty damn useless.  What Stephen outlines, and what several in this and many other threads have advocated is punishment in its corrective form.  Punishment is used to modify, correct and improve behavior, enforce discipline; its purpose is to improve the situation rather than any revenge seeking.  In this later case the admonition not to punish in anger is often found in the same discussion, precisely because one is most likely to seek revenge when angry, and more likely to correct when calm.

Something else I found interesting in Stephen's original post.  He stated that for him punishment was a difficult task.  Its a sentiment I've seen others echo, as though for them to punish was a struggle.  I believe that for many that struggle comes from the mix of the two above concepts, punative vs corrective.  In the punative form, punishment means deliberately seeking to harm someone you care about, and that is bound to create an emotional conflict that one would have to struggle with in order to act.  In the corrective form this emotional conflict should not occur and yet it apparently does in some who intend correction.  What I believe happens is that they still carry that punative ideology subconsciously, so while their intention is to be corrective, subconsciously they still have the emotional image of the punative form.  Thus, even though they are attempting to correct and help, emotionally they are still in a place of conflict. 



celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 6:45:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
In the corrective form this emotional conflict should not occur and yet it apparently does in some who intend correction.


I'm not sure I agree with this.  Even when punishment is intended as correction, there are still many aspects that could give one pause.  For example, is the correction too much? Is it insufficient?

Even without the punative thought pattern, the mere capacity for mistake--and a natural aversion to doing harm to a loved one--would be sufficient to set up an emotional conflict regarding punishment.

Action is risk; risk is scary.




Padriag -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 7:14:58 PM)

I agree and disagree... to a point.

In your example the emotional conflict doesn't stem from the use of punishment itself, but rather from self-doubts.  The questions you raised, while valid, all stem from essentially the same thing, fear.  Yet that fear isn't really rational.  For example, you suggested what if the punishment were too much.  Okay, suppose it were.  Let's say as a punishment the slave were "grounded" for an entire weekend, causing her to miss going out to some events.  Let's also suppose that later we find out she wasn't in the wrong, or perhaps not to the extent previously believed, or perhaps we find out one of the missed events was very important and thus this "punishment" didn't really "fit the crime."  Its not the end of the world.  Because we masters are human we are going to make mistakes.  If we punish, its likely at some point we will over correct or otherwise make a mistake in our judgment... its just part of life, it will happen.  Provided we don't deliberately go to extremes with our punishments (and if the intention truly is to correct, then extremes are likely never going to be necessary), then it is also unlikely that whatever we do will cause any lasting "harm", or anything that cannot itself be corrected later.  With that in mind, where is the risk?

Risk is only scary to those unaccustomed to it, which is why those accustomed to taking action often seem so bold.  Its not that they are fearless, but only that fewer things in life seem fearful to them.

So I disagree that corrective punishment itself should cause emotional conflict, but I agree that the self doubts some may harbor could very well cause an emotional conflict of its own.  In such cases I would also wonder how handicapped such a dominant would be in generally taking responsibility in the relationship and what their inner motivations for seeking a dominant role may actually be.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 7:32:39 PM)

Point taken....but in the same vein, how do you distinguish between punitve and corrective punishment except by the externalized motivations initiating the action?

If we externalize the origin of the emotional conflict, then hasn't the distinction between puntive and corrective punishment disappeared, and the debate shifted entirely to the external motivations thereof?



Padriag -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 7:43:38 PM)

I'm not entirely sure I understand your question here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Point taken....but in the same vein, how do you distinguish between punitve and corrective punishment except by the externalized motivations initiating the action?

Did you really mean externalized motivations, or perhaps externalized circumstances?
As for distinguishing between punitive or corrective punishment, are you asking for the perspective of the "punisher" or the "punished"?

quote:

If we externalize the origin of the emotional conflict, then hasn't the distinction between puntive and corrective punishment disappeared, and the debate shifted entirely to the external motivations thereof?

I don't believe the distinction would ever disappear.  There is a very clear difference between seeking revenge and seeking to correct and improve.  One is destructive in its core nature, the other constructive, they are polar opposites. 

I'm not sure what external motivations you are referring to?



celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 7:58:50 PM)

Let me ask a different question then in hopes of illustration:

Other than the seeking revenge or seeking correction, what is the distinction between punitive and corrective punishment?



SimplyMichael -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 10:17:23 PM)

quote:

I think one of the most difficult tasks, is to punish/discipline in a D/s relationship effectively, in a manner that brings about the change the dominant desires, without causing undue or unnecessary damage. 


The more I read discussions on punishment, the less inclined I am to incorporate any and the above statement is exactly why.  If I am trying to change someone's behavior, ultimately they are the ones that change it.  I want that change to come from a place of desire, not fear.  

Ultimately, a submissive chooses whether to accept punishment by staying or leaving a relationship. So, they are choosing to accept your attempts to get them to change.  Fuck that!

If they are going to change, I want them to change not because they fear me, but because I have asked for that change, I expect that change and I work toward that change.  I do the simple stuff of course like compliment them when they do it well and express disappointment when they don't.  More important is the more subtle ways, I point out and compliment others who do it well and express dislike for those who don't.  As best I can I organize things so that she is presented with opportunities to succeed and again as best I can without being obvious I push and pull in little ways to ensure success and then shower her with love and compliments for succeeding.

It is slower, requires more work but I think far more rewarding in the long run and because negativity isn't a sword of Damocles hanging overhead, the love and devotion become ever greater making this process of change more and more effective and the willingness to go farther and farther just keeps growing.




MadRabbit -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 11:34:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
In the definition presented by behavorial science and operant conditioning, punishment is negative reinforcement in which one uses a negative stimuli to reinforce a desired behavior.


Point of clarification and anal retentiveness only:

"Negative reinforcement" is the removal of an "aversive stimulus" (something unpleasant) in response to a particular behavior pattern.  "Positive reinforcement" is the application of a favorable stimulus (something pleasant) in response to a particular behavior pattern.

"Punishment" can take two forms:  "Positive punishment" is the application of an aversive stimulus (e.g., spanking); "negative punishment" is the withdrawal of a positive stimulus (e.g., no orgasms/sex/chocolate for a week).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning



Aye, thats very true. I was using the terms in a more liberal sense for general understanding.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 11:41:44 PM)

Understandable...although if you want to really confuse people try telling them that a poorly structured positive punishment ends up being a positive reinforcement for bad behavior, or a negative punishment a negative reinforcement for bad behavior



MadRabbit -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 11:56:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Let me ask a different question then in hopes of illustration:

Other than the seeking revenge or seeking correction, what is the distinction between punitive and corrective punishment?



I wanted to take a stab at answering this one. Please feal free to correct me if I am wrong, Padriag, since you are far more educated and experienced in this than I am.

The first isnt necessarily effective.

An example scenario would be someone forgetting to fold the socks for the sock drawer.

A corrective punishment would be making them fold and refold the socks several times.

There was a bad behavior, the behavior was corrected, and the additional folding of the socks reinforces the correct behavior (Hence, do it the first time on your own or do it many times when I correct you)

A punitive punishment would be the dominant getting upset and picking up a paddle and beating the submissive for not folding the socks.

The punishment had nothing to do with the bad behavior itself, but was solely done out of revenge (You didnt fold the sock drawer so I am going to beat you).

The first only focuses on correction. There was a bad behavior, the behavior was fixed, and this is why you shouldnt do it. The second was solely all about revenge and is more on a personal and emotional level.

The first is seeking to improve and is constructive and positive. "I'm not mad at you or upset, but I want this done right". The second is purely negative and utitlizing fear. The bad behavior isnt even addressed in the punishment itself. All that is focused on is "You failed and now must be punished". That in itself can be detrimental since it can lead to resentment and discernment.

However, on the flip side, this isnt to say that corporeal punishment is, in itself, ineffective for behavior modifcation. I know a couple of dominants real time who use corporeal punishment and have educated me on using it.

The difference, though, is that corporeal punishment, for them, is the "Everyone has failed, you have left me no choice, I am out of options, this is the last straw punishment". When they have exhausted every other means of correcting the behavior and need to take it a step further and add some pain to get the point across that they are SERIOUSLY disapointed.

My friend and mentor keeps a paddle on the wall that he never touches expect for corporeal punishment. He's only used it, I think, twice in seven years with his slave. The presence of the paddle serves as a way to enforce discipline since he has already established that he will use it if needed and it serves as a reminder of what happens in response to severe disobedience.



MadRabbit -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 11:57:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Understandable...although if you want to really confuse people try telling them that a poorly structured positive punishment ends up being a positive reinforcement for bad behavior, or a negative punishment a negative reinforcement for bad behavior


They can do some reasearch and figure it all out on thier own [:D]



Cedwen -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/26/2007 12:35:18 AM)

It takes time to train a sub properly Can take a year or more ? Trust is as portent as love in a fulltime Domme sub realationship. A contract or an agreement that changes and devlop over time between the Domme and the sub. BUT as the training progresses so does the intensity of the disipline. My sub trusted me as well as loved me. !8 months into the rlationship. My sub trusted me to waive the contract describing the punishment and its limits. Completely trusting me now. There is a no mercy agreement. I decide by observation and my know what my sub can take He is always unsure Plus the amount he can take without permanent damage varies. At this stage in our relationship when sub thinks he can take no more. I go beyond that limit Stopping when I deem he has had enough. But once I stop or finnish despite the yelling and screaming for me to stop. Momnts after I am finnished he begs for more. But I know what the real limit is He does not To go futher would be beyond  the bounds of submission
Ms Cedwen



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